Shigeru Miyamoto's Patent

[Guest Maase]

You don't get it guys.

(Well, I didn't get it too until my brother explained to me)

 

Supposedly, if they have this feature, they can make the games as hard as they want, and still have the Casuals loving it, due to the modes they created just for them?

 

Don't you get it? We could receive the best hardcore game ever, AND STILL HAVE SOCCER MOMS BUYING IT.

 

Genius

 

Edit: This of course, if Nintendo uses its full potential, otherwise, it will be just another feature to put in the box.

[jammy2211]

You don't get it guys.

(Well, I didn't get it too until my brother explained to me)

 

Supposedly, if they have this feature, they can make the games as hard as they want, and still have the Casuals loving it, due to the modes they created just for them?

 

Don't you get it? We could receive the best hardcore game ever, AND STILL HAVE SOCCER MOMS BUYING IT.

 

Genius

 

Edit: This of course, if Nintendo uses its full potential, otherwise, it will be just another feature to put in the box.

 

So you could have AN EASY MODE AND A HARD MODE!?

 

REVOLUTIONARY

[Edjamakated]

You're pitiful.

[jammy2211]

You're pitiful.

 

Zomg.

 

Awesome song though, by blindside, I think.

 

*downloads*

[Ten10]

Lord Ten10 is confuzzled by this patent. This whole digest concept, wasn't something like this done in Alone in the dark? Sounds like some sort of crazy interactive movie. But if I can play it without junk getting in my way I have no reason to complain.

[Emasher]

Wouldn't I, the hardcore gamer, just rather buy a game developed entirely around my needs though?

 

I don't get why some people think this is such big news or that it makes any real difference. The next Zelda, for example, isn't going to be any harder then Twilight Princess, which was a joke of a walkthrough.

 

Also I swear Metroid Prime has always done something like this anyway?

 

You know. I have this odd feeling you're still going to buy the next Zelda.

 

Would you not buy a DVD/BD just because it had special features you would never watch? No, you would buy it and just ignore the special features and watch the movie.

 

With this, you would buy it for the game and not bother with the hint system. This is a feature that is added to the game. Its not going to take away from the game if you don't use it.

[jammy2211]

You know. I have this odd feeling you're still going to buy the next Zelda.

 

Would you not buy a DVD/BD just because it had special features you would never watch? No, you would buy it and just ignore the special features and watch the movie.

 

With this, you would buy it for the game and not bother with the hint system. This is a feature that is added to the game. Its not going to take away from the game if you don't use it.

 

I will buy the next Zelda, I'm a sucker for Nintendo. I don't deny that.

 

At the same time, if it goes the way I see the series going, I'll be disappointed by the experience and ultimately left wanting. I'd be delighted to see Nintendo prove me wrong, but all this patent says to me is the next Zelda is going to be Twilight Princess full equiped with an in-game hint system (That is of course, if I take the opinion this patent is going to make any difference at all).

 

I think the realisation that what I want Nintendo to do and strive for isn't the same as the direction they're heading it. I've come to terms with that and I guess that's why I've got these strong views on the subject now, hopefully I'll be proven wrong. Currently, I doubt that.

[Davey_T]

I dont think 'casuals' dont buy 'hardcore' games because they are difficult they dont buy them because they probably dont want to be playing action/adventure games that could take about 50 hours to complete.

[Gizmo]

While I can see this working for the next Zelda game, this will fall apart as soon as anything non-linear is approached. Zelda is one of those games which can very easily be said whats happening next - you have to open that door, there is one way to open the door, and once you have done so, you will be presented with another door, which has one way to be opened, and so on. Apply this concept to anything remotely non-linear - I'm thinking here of something like Fallout 3 - and it falls apart. Since the removal of linearity is one of the key concepts being explored in gaming as a whole right now, from Fallout 3 to Scribblenauts via Crayon Physics and Banjo Kazooie, I don't see this system having any particular long term potential. It's a nice idea in theory - show someone how to do something if they get stuck - the evolution of gaming is taking it away from the one solution parameters necessary to work this system. So while we are all getting excited about the next Zelda game because thats what the MSPaint drawings depict, developers are going to have to be thinking about whether they want to holdback that evolution into true open world solutions and remain in the linearity of before while the "casuals" catch up. So in essence, this isn't moving anything forward at all.

[Grazza]

While I can see this working for the next Zelda game, this will fall apart as soon as anything non-linear is approached.

 

Exactly. I keep imagining the next Zelda designed as a series of "scenes". I hope I'm wrong. I just can't see this formula applied to Majora's Mask or Wind Waker, for example.

[Emasher]

While I can see this working for the next Zelda game, this will fall apart as soon as anything non-linear is approached. Zelda is one of those games which can very easily be said whats happening next - you have to open that door, there is one way to open the door, and once you have done so, you will be presented with another door, which has one way to be opened, and so on. Apply this concept to anything remotely non-linear - I'm thinking here of something like Fallout 3 - and it falls apart. Since the removal of linearity is one of the key concepts being explored in gaming as a whole right now, from Fallout 3 to Scribblenauts via Crayon Physics and Banjo Kazooie, I don't see this system having any particular long term potential. It's a nice idea in theory - show someone how to do something if they get stuck - the evolution of gaming is taking it away from the one solution parameters necessary to work this system. So while we are all getting excited about the next Zelda game because thats what the MSPaint drawings depict, developers are going to have to be thinking about whether they want to holdback that evolution into true open world solutions and remain in the linearity of before while the "casuals" catch up. So in essence, this isn't moving anything forward at all.

 

TBH, I think its best to start newer gamers (when you're trying to get them to play hardcore games) off with something more linear. From experience, I've found because they lack what we would call "gamer's intuition" they tend to ask for help in where to go next if the game is even remotely non-linear. You're absolutely right though, this wouldn't work for non-linear games. But perhaps look at this as like training wheels for a bicycle. Once casual gamers have played enough games relying on this they'll most likely eventually not need to use it anymore to play games. I think the point of this is just to get people interested in playing more hardcore games.

[darkjak]

I think that Digest should be included in the next Zelda. However, you should have reached a scene in the regular game to be able to play it in digest mode.

[Guest Maase]

While I can see this working for the next Zelda game, this will fall apart as soon as anything non-linear is approached. Zelda is one of those games which can very easily be said whats happening next - you have to open that door, there is one way to open the door, and once you have done so, you will be presented with another door, which has one way to be opened, and so on. Apply this concept to anything remotely non-linear - I'm thinking here of something like Fallout 3 - and it falls apart. Since the removal of linearity is one of the key concepts being explored in gaming as a whole right now, from Fallout 3 to Scribblenauts via Crayon Physics and Banjo Kazooie, I don't see this system having any particular long term potential. It's a nice idea in theory - show someone how to do something if they get stuck - the evolution of gaming is taking it away from the one solution parameters necessary to work this system. So while we are all getting excited about the next Zelda game because thats what the MSPaint drawings depict, developers are going to have to be thinking about whether they want to holdback that evolution into true open world solutions and remain in the linearity of before while the "casuals" catch up. So in essence, this isn't moving anything forward at all.

 

But that makes the System EVEN BETTER.

 

So, the point of the system is to give the Casuals the chance to play the entire game without having to spend hours on it, right?

The Digest mode only follows the Main Quest, right?

And you will end up gaining more if you have the balls to go through the entire Quest without Digest or Scenes, right?

 

Then, in the Digest, you follow the entire path of the Mission itself, going only through the neutral way, and end the game in the Neutral way.

 

That way, if you want to have different endings, you will need to play the full game by yourself, but if you want to simply see the story of the game, then it will be enough to go through one way.

 

Also, the scenes could be unlimited, the patent says that the scene follows any pre-followed aera the developer decides to make, so:

 

-The developer can put the scenes in EVERY SINGLE different main choice that is made.

 

For example:

One chapter for what you do after saving the bomb.

One chapter for what you do after activating the bomb.

 

Also, there could be side-chapters for each Side Quest, being right on the minimum level of that Side Quest and with all the requesites to do it.

 

I don't see the point in this discussion, though, its not like Nintendo will ever do a Fallout 3-like game xD

[Wesley]

Some nice views on this:

 

http://kotaku.com/5127816/developers-respond-to-nintendos-hint-system-patent

[Gizmo]

TBH, I think its best to start newer gamers (when you're trying to get them to play hardcore games) off with something more linear. From experience, I've found because they lack what we would call "gamer's intuition" they tend to ask for help in where to go next if the game is even remotely non-linear. You're absolutely right though, this wouldn't work for non-linear games. But perhaps look at this as like training wheels for a bicycle. Once casual gamers have played enough games relying on this they'll most likely eventually not need to use it anymore to play games. I think the point of this is just to get people interested in playing more hardcore games.

 

Right. So while developers are continuing to make linear games for the casuals, hardcore gamers are still shunned. It makes no difference.

 

But that makes the System EVEN BETTER.

 

So, the point of the system is to give the Casuals the chance to play the entire game without having to spend hours on it, right?

The Digest mode only follows the Main Quest, right?

And you will end up gaining more if you have the balls to go through the entire Quest without Digest or Scenes, right?

 

Then, in the Digest, you follow the entire path of the Mission itself, going only through the neutral way, and end the game in the Neutral way.

 

That way, if you want to have different endings, you will need to play the full game by yourself, but if you want to simply see the story of the game, then it will be enough to go through one way.

 

Also, the scenes could be unlimited, the patent says that the scene follows any pre-followed aera the developer decides to make, so:

 

-The developer can put the scenes in EVERY SINGLE different main choice that is made.

 

For example:

One chapter for what you do after saving the bomb.

One chapter for what you do after activating the bomb.

 

Also, there could be side-chapters for each Side Quest, being right on the minimum level of that Side Quest and with all the requesites to do it.

 

I don't see the point in this discussion, though, its not like Nintendo will ever do a Fallout 3-like game xD

 

If you're going to hand hold the casual guy through the game doing the bare minimum, that casual guy isn't going to enjoy it as much as he could, so hes less likely to buy sequels, so it hasn't helped anything.

 

And do you really think that dev's are going to make a video for every single outcome? Let's take Fallout as the example; one video for defusing the nuke in Megaton, one video for exploding it. Fair enough. How about further down the line when there are several ways to finish even the shortest quest: if the player has high lock picking they can pick the door, if they have high science they can hack the computer, if they have high explosives they can blow the building up. Are you suggesting that developers make a video for every single possibility for every single quest? You want them to stuff the disc with stupid hand holding guides instead of more quests, higher res textures and better audio?

[Dante]

Some nice views on this:

 

http://kotaku.com/5127816/developers-respond-to-nintendos-hint-system-patent

 

Best views:

 

Jonathan Blow, Creator, Braid

"Based just on reading your posting... I don't know. I mean, it's an okay idea for a developer to have a way to show you through various parts of the game I guess, to show you side-quests you missed or whatever. I'd like to see someone try that. But as a general paradigm for playing games there are a lot of problems.

 

"The defining characteristic of a game is that you play it. If, in order for games to be accessible to a wider audience, we need to make it so that most people can skip over the playing it part, then what that really means is that our medium sucks. If you have to elide the basic property of your medium to make experiences in that medium desirable, then the medium itself is questionable at a very deep level."

 

"The proper solution is to start producing games that don't have this kind of problem — not to create the problem, then band-aid over it and hope people still have a good experience."

[jammy2211]

Also just as an after-thought, if Nintendo patented this and it is the Godly idea that'll save hardcore gaming on the Wii, or whatever, third parties can't use it so it just means we'll see less third party efforts?

 

I think the patent is rediculous and doesn't mean jack shit, but for the hype some people have convinced themselves its worth, that's an interesting take on it from a different perspective, no?

[Gizmo]

This Ben Mattes fella agrees with me then:

 

"ie: I'm in Fallout3 and have focused energy on sneak and unarmed combat. If I'm in a particular point in the game I can't pass, and I use this system, what 'recording' could the game know to use? It can't possibly have developer walkthroughs of all possible configurations of a character and strategies to pass through each in-game challenge. More likely as not, it would have one 'right' way to pass through a particular challenge...

[Goron_3]

Best views:

 

Jonathan Blow, Creator, Braid

"Based just on reading your posting... I don't know. I mean, it's an okay idea for a developer to have a way to show you through various parts of the game I guess, to show you side-quests you missed or whatever. I'd like to see someone try that. But as a general paradigm for playing games there are a lot of problems.

 

"The defining characteristic of a game is that you play it. If, in order for games to be accessible to a wider audience, we need to make it so that most people can skip over the playing it part, then what that really means is that our medium sucks. If you have to elide the basic property of your medium to make experiences in that medium desirable, then the medium itself is questionable at a very deep level."

 

"The proper solution is to start producing games that don't have this kind of problem — not to create the problem, then band-aid over it and hope people still have a good experience."

 

An idea like this would have completely ruined his game Braid. Because spending ages solving the puzzles made you feel more attached to Tim (the main character). If a casual had done half the game and let the game do the rest for him, the revelation during the final level of the game would mean nothing. So yeah, for some games it's a good idea but to me what it sounds like Nintendo want to do is just make a franchise like Zelda sell more, instead of catering a new IP towards them and giving us classic zelda. That said, if they don't dumb the gameplay down it's completely fine. OoT had a great difficulty setting, not too hard but not too easy.

[Guest Maase]

Right. So while developers are continuing to make linear games for the casuals, hardcore gamers are still shunned. It makes no difference.

 

 

 

If you're going to hand hold the casual guy through the game doing the bare minimum, that casual guy isn't going to enjoy it as much as he could, so hes less likely to buy sequels, so it hasn't helped anything.

 

The developers could either:

 

A) Not be lazy and do a walkthrough for every single choice, like if it was a Visual Novel

 

B)Do what I said previously

 

The fans would love it more with A, but I bet they would love the game almost as much just by using B), and maybe they would even stop the game in some parts (Digest) and do choices by themselves to see what's different. No problem in that.

 

And do you really think that dev's are going to make a video for every single outcome? Let's take Fallout as the example; one video for defusing the nuke in Megaton, one video for exploding it. Fair enough. How about further down the line when there are several ways to finish even the shortest quest: if the player has high lock picking they can pick the door, if they have high science they can hack the computer, if they have high explosives they can blow the building up. Are you suggesting that developers make a video for every single possibility for every single quest? You want them to stuff the disc with stupid hand holding guides instead of more quests, higher res textures and better audio?

 

No, they would make just one video saying things as:

 

[if you have enough Skill, Lockpick, if you have enough Science, Hack, if you don't have neither, go to the table and get the password to use at the computer, or go to the lockeroom at the left, find the key and put in the door.]

 

Can't see the problem, it isn't that hard.

[mcj metroid]

So you could have AN EASY MODE AND A HARD MODE!?

 

REVOLUTIONARY

 

oh god that DOESNT work for an adventure game like zelda... when something like metroid prime had a hard mode.. it just makes the enemies harder and lose health more etc.. Zelda fans don't want that we want harder puzzles etc

.. but besides a hint system.. a hard mode isn't really possible in a zelda game without redoing all the puzzles..

 

this is a brilliant idea I find. You'll see.

[jammy2211]

oh god that DOESNT work for an adventure game like zelda... when something like metroid prime had a hard mode.. it just makes the enemies harder and lose health more etc.. Zelda fans don't want that we want harder puzzles etc

.. but besides a hint system.. a hard mode isn't really possible in a zelda game without redoing all the puzzles..

 

this is a brilliant idea I find. You'll see.

 

It's something I'll never use, dumbs down Zelda even more and will encourage the developers to make the next Zelda game even more simple.

 

It just shows that Nintendo are going to try and make even their supposedly more hardcore of franchises as accessible to everyone as they possibly can. Apologies if I don't get excited about that prospect.

[Pit-Jr]

Its an interesting concept and understandable from a sales perspective.

The whole thing reeks of insecurity on Nintendo's part though. Are they really THAT afraid of releasing a difficult/hardcore (for lack of a better word) game on its own merits anymore?

[canand]

Patent: Next Zelda goes casual?

 

Hint and scene-select system patented by Nintendo

 

An interesting patent has emerged for what appears to be Nintendo's next Zelda game, sparking concern (in our office anyway) that the famous adventure series is all about to go all "casual".

 

The patent, credited to Mario daddy Shigeru Miyamoto himself, describes an all-new hint system as well as a DVD-style scene selection option, for a dummy game called 'Legend of OO' (we wonder what that could be?!)

 

 

 

The three systems outlined by the patent (thanks to NeoGAF for translating the gibberish) seem to be the following:

 

 

•Main game: Play through the game from start to end as normal with an optional hint system. Veteran players can enjoy the challenge while less experienced players can get an occasional helping hand.

 

 

•Digest: The game shows important scenes in the game, both cut-scene and gameplay, in order (it basically plays itself). You have the option of stopping the digest at any time and playing the 'scene' yourself with relevant equipment and powers. You can't save the game in this mode.

 

 

•Scenes: Play through any puzzle or 'scene' in the game with appropriate equipment and powers. A bit like a DVD movie's scene selection.

 

 

Miyamoto has already expressed the Zelda series' need to become more accessible to a broader group of players, stating that "lot of people who bought the Wii are not necessarily the types of people who are interested in playing that kind of game."

 

The above systems sound like a fine gateway to us for helping casual players into the Zelda stratosphere, and really there's no reason to believe that they'll affect the core Zelda game fans expect. After all, Mario Kart Wii managed to please both camps. Yes, we're back on it.

 

Nintendo UK declined to comment when contacted.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

It's something I'll never use, dumbs down Zelda even more and will encourage the developers to make the next Zelda game even more simple.

 

Quite opposite. The important aspect of this patent is that the developer doesn't need to compromise difficulty anymore to gain accessibility. I guess that Miyamoto himself noticed that Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass were too easy, and practically gave no challenge for more seasoned player. With this, overall difficulty can be left high and puzzles made more complex, but the game still stays accessible for less seasoned players. Basically meaning those who don't have neither time or desire bang their head on same location for three hours. They can skip hard parts, gradually learn play better from videos, while still progressing further, and not feeling frustrated. More seasoned players can play game normally.

 

Furthermore, developers have often complained that it is pointless to do big game with lots of secrets, as only fraction of players will ever see them. With this, more players will see whole game, encouraging also this kind of development. It's a win-win scenario really, if implemented correctly. But it will be very challenging to do so, as it can be overdone, and it requires lots of testing to get it correctly.