Why Zelda Wii....ever - Part II

[Edjamakated]

If you haven't read my first thread, here is a link http://n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22630

 

In my previous post, I talked about how Link could potentially interact with the world at a level never before seen thanks to the Wii and it's motion+ accessory. In this thread, I would like to explain exactly what the world could look like and how the game might be played, and finally, why Zelda Wii could possibly be the best game ever (but only if it throws what we call "Zelda" into the wind).

 

So where to start? How about at the core. For every Zelda game that came out after LTTP, the same formula has been applied. Link must travel to many different dungeons (water, fire, etc), gain an item, then use that item throughout the level and then eventually kill the boss with said item. It is because of this redundancy that Zelda hasn't felt fresh in a long time. The games themselves are beautifully crafted, but there are hardly any surprises. What I propose is that Zelda stray away from the "collect 8 pieces of the artifact" to something more sincere, something more worthy, something more random.

 

It is because we know the formula so well that it doesn't matter how interesting these new dungeons are, they all feel the same. It feels like a different version of the same game. Lately, Zelda games have put more and more emphasis on side quests, quests between the quest. IMO, this is where the adventure portion of the game comes in. This is where random comes in. And generally, all the quests have been great. This is the reason why MM is my favorite Zelda. But still, sooner or later, no matter how much you delay, you still have to go to a dungeon in order to progress through the game.

 

Now I applaud Miyamoto for his courage. He knows that Zelda has become too redundant and that's why he said TP will be the last of its kind. And I really think he's thinking what I'm thinking (well maybe not exactly). He's thinking that adventure isn't ordained. You don't tell someone where to go and what to do and call it an adventure. That's similar to telling someone to go to the store and buy some juice. That's an errand. An adventure is the unknown. An adventure is possibilities. And in order for Zelda to have the unknown, it needs to be changed from the ground up.

 

Now imagine starting the game and finding yourself abandoned out in the middle of the woods. It's dark and your hurt, but what is that? You hear something and it sounds like singing. As you draw nearer, the singing gets louder. Louder and louder still, until you see it. It's a cave; a Great Fairy spring in all it's glory. You have no items, no sense of direction, and no memory to speak of; she gladly takes pity on you and heals your wounds. But her kindness comes with a price. She entrusts you with something, something very precious. A creature; it looks like a mole but it's so tiny and furry, and it looks like it's hurt. But wait, what is this? It's faintly glowing, but it seems to be getting weaker. The Fairy tells you that she cannot heal this creature here, and that you must take it to whence it came. Conveniently, she has no idea where it came from, but knows that it cannot be allowed to die. So you are turned away, helpless. You exit the cave, riddled with questions. Then BAM! Goblins and there's a lot of them. You don't have anything to defend yourself with and they're getting closer! Closer and closer they come with their incessant laughter and disgusting slobber. Backed up against the wall, it looks like your done for. But just as they are about to come down on you, the creature sneezes and the land around you suddenly pops out into a hill, sending those goons flying. Then you realize....WTF is this thing? It sneezes once more and a path is formed. It's trying to lead you somewhere. So you follow.

 

You find that the path leads to a mountain. It's treacherous, but you still manage to follow the path and climb its summit. There you notice the creature is looking a lot brighter and healthier. It sneezes again and creates a giant hole deep into the mountain. You fall for what seems like forever. And screaming your longs out, you finally black out. When you come to, you see the creature running around joyfully. This is the creature's home and you brought him back safely. It notices you are awake and scurries over. What? What's it saying? It looks like it wants to reward you. It starts doing this hilarious little dance; back and forth and back and forth. You don't understand it until you see it turn into pure light. Like electricity, a bolt of energy strikes you and starts pouring power into you, but somethings wrong. There is so much pain. With light coming out of your eyes, ears and mouth, you scream in agony. And then, it's over. On all fours, you catch your breath and even spew out a mouthful of blood. You look around for the creature and find him lying on his side, with his glow slowly pulsating fainter and fainter until nothing.

 

The mountain starts to crumble all around you. Your going to die unless you figure something out. But the only way out is the way you came in. That's when the game prompts you to stand where the light shines in and tells you how to use your new found power. So you execute the move and a hill forms up under you launching you higher and higher. Your not going to make it. The hole is getting smaller and smaller. Your never going to make. That's when the game prompts you to use another one of your abilities and force the hole open. In a tremendous blast, the top of the mountain is turned into specks of dust. You've set yourself free but only to land in comical fashion right on your face and pass out.

 

You wake up to a beautiful girl tending to your needs. Shes was worried you'd never awaken. She tells you her name and asks yours (game prompt).....

 

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I'm sorry that was so long, but I felt it necessary (and kinda fun). But you can see the setup of this game and how it can be much different than in the past. There could be many of those special creatures with many different powers. They could be huge beasts while others tiny little bugs. There doesn't have to be a predetermined limit. But best of all, they don't have to be locked away in some Temple either. Also, the powers they grant you can make for some interesting puzzles.

 

The way you find these creatures could be by listening to crazy town folk talk about "legends" and taking the hints and setting out to look for them. And you can even be given a choice, to capture them by using their weakness and doing them harm, or by helping them.

 

These creatures can also have personalities themselves. For instance, you find a giant dragon perched atop a cliff. She warns you that she has done away with the others that tried to capture her, and if you don't leave now, she will kill you. You end up fighting her but during the struggle she runs the risk of dieing, so you save her life. In gratitude, she grants you the power to tame her young (giving you the ability to fly!).

 

The story could allow for many unique possibilities. Such as Ganondorf is searching high and low for these creatures (the one you helped barely escaped his grasp) and he will stop at nothing to find them; not after he knows their true power. The more he captures and the more powerful he becomes, but something noticeable starts to happen. The world becomes more dull, the animals more angry and the sky more dark. But the same thing happens as you find creatures and use there power. Your a detriment to the world, just like Ganon. The further you advance, the more you step on each others toes. And as you both obtain more and more power, the laws of the world finally become unhinged when you face each other; providing an epic setting for a climax.

 

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that Zelda is going to get a great push in the right direction with the Wiimote and Motion+, but to truly be the best ever, it'll need to shed its now archaic structure and employ something more flexible, something more random. The problem with Temples and Dungeons is that you know where they are and you know generally the challenges you face. With a system like mine, you have no idea where to go and have no idea what you will face; and that is what exploration is all about. The unknown.

 

Thanks for reading!

[david.dakota]

Personally, i'm doubting that we'll see a major overhaul of the franchise in Wii's lifetime. Look at Phantom Hourglass, which could give a hint at where the team will take the next game in the series- Phantom Hourglass is quintessentially Zelda but with a new interface designed around the touchscreen.

 

I have no doubt the next Zelda will follow this- by perhaps adding 1:1 fighting with Motion+, or even taking its queue from PH or Animal Crossing with pointing controls.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Edj, everything about your ideas were just beautiful. That 'middle of a forest' idea is great - akin to the way you chase the skull kid to Termina in MM... from the get-go you're on a hype. Which made the beginning of MM more accesible and entertaining, as opposed to TPs opening.

 

I choose Majora's Mask as the most distinct and overhauled Zelda from the past decade. Rather than 'collect' objects from Temples, you free giants - the future saviours and the extra detail to sidequests allows for more exploration of the land; remember finding that invisible soldier at Ikana and the dancing guy on that pillar near Snowpeak? Imagine discovering such in the Hyrule of TP... But because nothing was out there, there was no incentive to, for example, go to the extreme edges of the Gerudo Mesa for anything else but to admire the view and find a treasure chest of rupees.

 

So, knowing that Nintendo are usually the epitome of conservativeness and tradition, I won't be expecting a complete overhaul of the franchise and I don't think a complete overhaul is required. The perfect Zelda game for me would be a Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess/OOT merged together. Sidequests/adventure complimented with vast areas and storyline content.

 

A single game doesn't really need to be OVERHAULED but rather just have added content and add some inspiration from similar games. Final Fantasy for example spawns out the same familiarities, adding little to moderate touches on battle systems and mini games. The story line is ALWAYS the main focal point. But if you don't provide a strong, engaging story and the gameplay elements are not distinct or progressive in a major way the game becomes a stalemate, ala TP.

 

Nintendo on a whole just need some new inspiration and desire. Maybe they need to bring in more youth to their teams for that added freshness because right now it just seems Nintendo are only doing what are essential and nothing more.

[Pit-Jr]

I have to admit i didnt read your entire post but im with you when you say Link is becoming less of an adventurer and more of a gopher/errand boy.

 

The original Zelda on NES nailed the feeling of adventure within minutes of booting up the game. You start out empty-handed in the field with no idea where to go or what to do and the cheap wooden sword you find soon after is just barely adequate enough to survive. No fairies or talking boats or shadow beasts are there telling you where to go and what to do. No immersion-breaking tutorial screens when you find an item.

 

I realize games just HAVE to be casually accessible now but the next Zelda could benefit from revisiting the level of mystery and guideless adventure (and survival difficulty) of the original.

[Emasher]

I don't think they're going to release a Point and Click Zelda as some have mentioned. But they might stray from the goto this place and do this, now go to the dungeon and find the item and beat the boss, ect. As others have said, what they really need to bring back to the series is the feeling of adventure and not knowing where to go, only trying to find a way to advance the game. Perhaps if they got rid of the old go to dungeons and do this formula and had you not really knowing what to do but having people make suggestions of where to go but not just outright tell you, and also not have a clear path just to the next part but have you guessing different places you can go to. I'd like to see the enemies you face not get stronger by where they are, but how far you've gotten in the game. That way, you could do the stuff in any order you want but the game would still get progressively more difficult. TP really nailed the feeling of looking for new places to explore, but there really wasn't much reward for exploration. Zelda Wii needs to reward players for straying from the path. I think I'd like to see the game actually have side quests that you can't really tell if they're side quests or just part of the main quest. Like the Valhalla in Metroid Prime 3. Some you won't even know if they are part of the main quest until you're near the end of the game. For instance, you might be very close to the end of the game, and not have something you need to progress through an area. Then you go back and do a side quest that you decided to skip at the start of the game, and are rewarded with an item that not only gets you past where you were stuck, but also opens up a lot of new areas though-out the game.

[Goron_3]

The next zelda will be like how they made Phanton hourglass, Mario Kart, AC and Brawl; a game which everyone can play and get into. Sad but true. I'd be very surprised if they kept it a hardcore experience, VERY surprised. I mean, even Mario Galaxy was a lot easier than past games and you only had to get half the stars to get to the final boss.

 

Seriously don't get your hopes too high. It annoys me when people hype up a game and then complain afterwards.

[Edjamakated]

I don't care if it's accessible. That just means the controls will be great! I'm more concerned about the structure of the game.

[Emasher]

The next zelda will be like how they made Phanton hourglass, Mario Kart, AC and Brawl; a game which everyone can play and get into. Sad but true. I'd be very surprised if they kept it a hardcore experience, VERY surprised. I mean, even Mario Galaxy was a lot easier than past games and you only had to get half the stars to get to the final boss.

 

Seriously don't get your hopes too high. It annoys me when people hype up a game and then complain afterwards.

 

Yes, but the final boss in Mario Galaxy wasn't anywhere near the end of the game. Afterwards you still had to collect the other half of the stars, and then you could do it all again with luigi.

 

Games might be accessible, but that doesn't mean they have to be casual or even bridge titles. Galaxy was accessible, but was still a really good game. So was Phantom Hourglass.

 

If anything, it will be easy to get to the final boss, but by then you will only have experienced half the stuff in the game.

[Grazza]

I'd like to see the enemies you face not get stronger by where they are, but how far you've gotten in the game. That way, you could do the stuff in any order you want but the game would still get progressively more difficult.

 

That's an excellent idea. The more progress you make, the tougher the henchmen that get sent after you (alongside the earlier enemies, of course). As well as monsters roaming the fields, I'd also like to have enemies, even bosses and mini-bosses, that actively hunt you down.

 

I did read all of Edjamakated's post and liked the ideas, especially about breaking away from the "dungeon" formula. It would be nice to have all sorts of buildings scattered around the overworld, some 1-room, some 5-room and some 20-room. Imagine a building in a town (church, tavern, anything) with no enemies, but one huge puzzle in the main room. You wouldn't get told to do this and it wouldn't be a "dungeon". It could just be a way to get an item, whether essential or optional.

 

Regarding the idea of how much guidance you should get, I wouldn't like to go back to Zelda on the NES, because it's just too difficult, in my opinion. It's very frustrating if you just can't work out what to do. On the other hand, people do want to explore for themselves, so perhaps there could be some sort of "perfect hint" system, so that you can always find the quickest path to progressing the story if you want to.

 

I'd love a more seamless overworld, where you get certain enemies that tend to hang around in the woods, yet will stray out to attack you if they see you. Another thing I really fancied is underground waterways that you can actually walk through at your own pace, with hidden dwellings and shops along the way. They would match up perfectly with the overworld and would just be an alternative route.

 

Flight is also a must, as is Tingle! Imagine being up a mountain, judging where you want to go (even if it's miles off) and just gliding down and landing in the right place.

 

The other thing I'm going to say isn't particularly helpful, but they need to think whatever they were thinking when they created Wind Waker. Seeing the "One Man Orchestra" version of WW's title theme reminded me of how utterly brilliant that game is. It's more than a game, it's an artistic vision, which is what they need to have again if they're ever going to surpass it.

 

When I first played Wind Waker I thought "This is the best game ever", and I still think that. It gives me a strong feeling of "This game can't be beaten". I really want to have that feeling again, but it's a tall order.

 

So, I hope the Zelda Team forget all the trappings of the series, and instead think up the perfect atmosphere and tone; then they should apply Zelda, Ganon and all the other Zelda elements. Zelda is not about an OOT-looking Link on a horse fighting an OOT-looking Ganondorf. It's about reincarnation. It's like Blackadder, I tell you!

[Emasher]

Another thing I'd like to see is travelers around the over-world. Perhaps some of them will be loyal to hyrule and will do business with you and others will be loyal to ganon and you will have to fight them, and then you can choose to either spare them or kill them. Sometimes killing them and robbing them will work better for you and sometimes you will be better to spare them and they might become loyal to you or might give you something that you wouldn't have been able to steal from them.

[Goron_3]

I don't care if it's accessible. That just means the controls will be great! I'm more concerned about the structure of the game.

 

Phanton hourglass was 'accessible' but the controls wereb't that great. It was accessible because there was nothing to the combat.

[Jonnas]

Seriously don't get your hopes too high. It annoys me when people hype up a game and then complain afterwards.

 

You know what also annoys me? Quotes like these

 

The next zelda will be like how they made Phanton hourglass, Mario Kart, AC and Brawl; a game which everyone can play and get into. Sad but true.

 

It's so arrogant and elitist. It represents exactly what the gaming world doesn't need.

 

And before you say "being accessible means it gets dumbed down":

 

Phanton hourglass was 'accessible' but the controls wereb't that great. It was accessible because there was nothing to the combat.

 

Au contraire, the controls were quite good and responsive. It was accessible because there weren't 5 different buttons you had to pay attention to in order to play.

 

Accessibility has nothing to do with difficulty. The original Super Mario Bros. proves this.

 

As for the Zelda topic at hand...sorry guys, but I only skim-read what you've written.

I'll say the "animals" idea is good, and certainly something that could make the next Zelda feel fresh. As does the whole "dungeon overhaul" suggestion.

[Grazza]

Another thing I'd like to see is travelers around the over-world. Perhaps some of them will be loyal to hyrule and will do business with you and others will be loyal to ganon and you will have to fight them, and then you can choose to either spare them or kill them. Sometimes killing them and robbing them will work better for you and sometimes you will be better to spare them and they might become loyal to you or might give you something that you wouldn't have been able to steal from them.

 

Yes, that's a system I'd like to see too. There could be outlaws to hunt down, and it's more rewarding to capture them alive (like in Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath). Also, Link could be skilled in unarmed combat, and you could set yourself the challenge of completing the game without ever using a weapon.

 

I'd also like to see plenty of armour upgrades (automatic like in Wind Waker), especially the Power Bracelets (with lots of uses for them), so you get stronger and sturdier throughout the game.

[Menkor]

As long as they don't force us to get uneccesary things like Motion+ to be able to play the game, they are free to experiment a little...If Motion+ became a requirement for Zelda Wii, I probably wouldn't get it

[Emasher]

As long as they don't force us to get uneccesary things like Motion+ to be able to play the game, they are free to experiment a little...If Motion+ became a requirement for Zelda Wii, I probably wouldn't get it

 

Do you honestly think they're going to make a Zelda game, a series that has always been linked with sword play, that dosen't make use of a peripheral that basically is designed to enhance sword play in games. Its possible they make it so you don't need the M+, but I think thats unlikely. Perhaps the game will be bundled with M+. Why the M+ hate anyway?

[Diageo]

They said it will be only like a tenner anyway...

[Edjamakated]

Uh tenner? Ten hours? Who is they? What are you talking about?

[Diageo]

Sorry, what we call ten euros here...

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

LOL @ the cultural discrepancy

 

You know what also annoys me? Quotes like these

 

 

 

 

But why?

 

Nintendo hasn't strayed at all from the same old formula in the past 10 years. What is there to make us think otherwise?

[Edjamakated]

Miyamoto said it himself, for one.

 

Look, I don't think it's going to be anything drastic. Still, a change is going to be made somewhere and since TP will be the "last of its kind" that leads me to believe its going to be something more than just the story or landscape.

[Pit-Jr]

I would absolutely love a point and click Zelda, like a living storybook type deal that sorts out the whole series timeline up until this point. Surely something like that would be feasible after Link's Crossbow Training

[Jonnas]

But why?

 

Nintendo hasn't strayed at all from the same old formula in the past 10 years. What is there to make us think otherwise?

 

I'm annoyed at Goron's quote.

He basically said that opening videogames to more people is a bad thing. It isn't.

[Emasher]

I would absolutely love a point and click Zelda, like a living storybook type deal that sorts out the whole series timeline up until this point. Surely something like that would be feasible after Link's Crossbow Training

 

Something like that could work, but Nintendo will NEVER reveal the timeline.

[Fused King]

During E3: We thought why not use paper, lots and lots of paper....

and so, keeping the succes of paper mario in mind, we decided to do a

paper legend of zelda :P

 

Pretty funny stuff, but seriously I think that NINTENDO will probably reinvent the whole Zelda experience as what they once did with MM and Windwaker.

Eiji Aonuma also said that he really wants to out do himself in order to beat one of the best zelda games ever created (what fans think) = OoT..

[Goron_3]

You know what also annoys me? Quotes like these

 

It's so arrogant and elitist. It represents exactly what the gaming world doesn't need.

 

And before you say "being accessible means it gets dumbed down":

 

Au contraire, the controls were quite good and responsive. It was accessible because there weren't 5 different buttons you had to pay attention to in order to play.

 

Accessibility has nothing to do with difficulty. The original Super Mario Bros. proves this.

 

 

It's not elitist at all. I don't want games to become easier as time goes by and whilst i want more people to get into gaming I DON'T want people them to dumb down existing franchises. Look at CAPCOM and what they've done with MegaMan 9, SFIIHD:TR and SFIV, they've stuck with their roots and i love it.

I'm completely fine with the wii fit's and Wii music of the world, they can only be a good thing. Just don't make the next zelda and waggle fest which is aimed at my mum and i'm happy.