Temp limited RGB colour fix solution

[madeinbeats]

Just quick tip from the Digital Foundry Trine 2 face off. Nintendo will probably patch this, but you can do this on you TV as a temp solution. Just tried it myself and it works great.

 

The more washed-out image is a concern compared to the darker look of the other versions, but only for those with HDTVs that don't come with an option to select full or limited range RGB levels over HDMI (usually called HDMI black level), in which changing this setting to low (and lowering the brightness in the game's menu) solves the problem. However, the bottom line is that we shouldn't have to work so hard to get the best look from the game

 

On my Samsung it went: Menu > Picture > Picture Options > HDMI Black Level > Low.

 

I found I didn't need to play with anything else, was an instant noticeable improvement.

 

Damn man, this Wii U is so techie!!!

Edited December 4, 2012 by madeinbeats

[Lens of Truth]

This looks perfect on our projector and colour/gamma is fine on the LED TV downstairs, so I assume they're detecting it automatically. I did notice some footage of Mario U looked washed out on certain websites prior to launch - it's very pronounced in that game because the colour really draws attention.

 

Could this also contribute to the slightly washed out appearance of the gamepad image? I know it's not getting it via the HDMI, but might limiting the RGB to the 'essential' range also help reduce the data for compression? Probably totally off the mark here. I've found that turning the brightness down on the pad actually makes the image a little more pleasing, so there could be a gamma issue. Of course, we have no control.

 

Yet another piece of housekeeping that Nintendo need to address in an update.

[madeinbeats]

Could this also contribute to the slightly washed out appearance of the gamepad image?

 

I would say so, the TV and pad are being fed by the same image processor. I read the PS3 had the same issue and was patched with an update.

[somme]

It looks lovely on my TV. Are you saying it could look better? lol

[Lens of Truth]

Your TV will be detecting it and displaying accordingly. A lot of HD TVs aren't even capable of dealing with the full RGB range that the Wii U currently lacks, anyway, so I imagine it will only be an issue on newer sets, some monitors and projectors. Any that do have it should also have an option for limited.

 

This is all extremely confusing to me because I have my projector set to YCbCr 4:4:4, not RGD at all! All I know is it works and pops my eyes out of their sockets

[Dcubed]

It's not a fix for the Limited HDMI range "problem" (nor is it something that needs to be fixed in the first place), it's just a means of lowering the contrast for black/near black colours.

 

If your TV is properly calibrated, you won't notice any improvement (and chances are that you've got this option on anyway - I know I do!). It's not actually creating more detail in the blacks (like Full Range HDMI would do), it's just bringing out more detail in what's already there.

 

All this tells me is that Digital Foundry didn't have their TV sets properly calibrated for Limited RGB HDMI sources (and you should really have different settings for different types of sources anyway)

 

You should be using the same TV picture settings for the Wii U as you do with a Blu-Ray player (which is also a limited RGB range HDMI source. BTW, just a tip, turning on full range RGB on the PS3 for BD movies actually results in a loss of detail as it would cut off the lower black boundary and the upper white boundary. You're welcome )

Edited December 4, 2012 by Dcubed
Fixed a really funny iphone made typo. See if you can spot it in MadeinBeat's quote of my old post ;)

[Lens of Truth]

I was about to say "where's Dcubed when we need him?"

 

Btw, do you think it will be possible to improve the gamepad image in time or is it set in stone by the type of screen it's using?

 

I should add that the colour discrepancy is only really noticeable when you're looking at both the pad and the main display together.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Lens of Truth

[Dcubed]

I was about to say "where's Dcubed when we need him?"

 

Btw, do you think it will be possible to improve the gamepad image in time or is it set in stone by the type of screen it's using?

 

I should add that the colour discrepancy is only really noticeable when you're looking at both the pad and the main display together.

 

Yeah the loss of colour saturation is really noticeable and a real shame, especially when you're playing a game that uses both screens (the difference is night and day compared to my TV!)

 

I reckon that it's probably an issue with the video stream's compression too, not just the screen itself. If that's the case, it might be possible to see some improvement over time, but I don't expect much to change - there's only so many miracles that they can pull off with their streaming tech!

 

Really though, devs should be altering the chromancy and colour choices of whatever is being displayed on the Gamepad to better match what's on the TV screen (like how GB/GBC/GBA/DS/3DS games would look different in screenshots to how they look on the actual screen - the game assets have been designed with the lower colour/chromancy/saturation etc of these screens in mind)

Edited December 4, 2012 by Dcubed

[madeinbeats]

It's not a fix for the Limited HDMI range "problem" (nor is it something that needs to be fixed in the first place), it's just a means of lowering the contrast for black/near black colours.

 

If your TV is properly calibrated, you won't notice any improvement (and chances are that you've got this option on anyway - I know I do!). It's not actually creating more detail in the blacks (like Full Range HDMI would do), it's just bringing out more detail in what's already there.

 

All this tells me is that Digital Foundry didn't have their TV sets properly calibrated for Limited RGB HDMI sources (and you should really have different settings for different types if sources anyway)

 

You should be using the same TV picture settings for the Wii U as you do with a Blu-Ray player (which is also a limited RGB range HDMI source. BTW, just a tip, turning on full range RGB on the PS3 for BD movies actually results in a loss of detail as it would cut off the lower black boundary and the upper shite boundary. You're welcome )

 

All I know is it worked for me :p

 

On my tv all the different ports are calibrated independently of each other, the exception is my PC which I use the Pantone Huey USB to calibrate.

 

Are you sure it isn't something that needs to be fixed? That seems to be the general opinion! though this is the internet we're talking about...

[Lens of Truth]

All this tells me is that Digital Foundry didn't have their TV sets properly calibrated for Limited RGB HDMI sources (and you should really have different settings for different types if sources anyway)

It does bring into question Digital Foundry's level of expertise. A very strong message is sent out when you show pale Wii U footage captured with the wrong settings compared to a 'vibrant' Xbox image. I think IGN or Gametrailers did a similar thing in their Epic Mickey 2 review.

 

As I say, I didn't have to change a thing on either of my displays to get a perfect deep, rich image. When I scroll around the world map on Mario it almost looks 3D it's so vivid!

 

For the Panasonic LED downstairs I have it on GAME for lowest latency, no cropping, and all motion and noise processing off.

[Dcubed]

All I know is it worked for me :p

 

On my tv all the different ports are calibrated independently of each other, the exception is my PC which I use the Pantone Huey USB to calibrate.

 

Are you sure it isn't something that needs to be fixed? That seems to be the general opinion! though this is the internet we're talking about...

 

It would be nice to have as an option, but it really isn't that big a deal and you have to counterbalance it with the downsides that come with it. Including an option to switch to full range RGB creates two different colour standards that developers would need to design for. As this is more effort that needs to be put into the colour/graphic design of the game, most 3rd party devs will probably just design for the Full Range RGB mode, resulting in black crush and worse image quality on limited RGB displays (which make up the majority of sets out there).

 

Secondly, it's yet another video option for Joe Shmoe to worry about and get confused over (and let's be honest, almost nobody out there has a fecking clue what Full Range RGB HDMI actually means or does anyway). Nintendo like to keep things as simple as possible for the end user, this is an arguably unnecessary option that wouldn't make that much of a difference for most people anyway.

 

It's a nice bonus for games, but it's not a massive boost in image quality really. You don't see anyone really moaning about poor colour reproduction or black levels or anything image quality related in a good BD movie (unless some moron hasn't calibrated their set properly )

[madeinbeats]

This is the first piece of AV input equipment I've ever had to be accommodating of with this TV. Surely leaving things the way they are would confuse people more, I doubt hardly anyone knows what TV calibration is or if they need it, they just want stuff to plug and play, so if there's something Nintendo can patch to help this then that should do it.

 

With my TV doing it, and DF constantly yammering on about it I assumed it was something a high percentage of people were experiencing. I mean, how many TVs or monitors are out there that can't compensate for it? If it's a few hundred/thousand, then it's something that definitely needs 'fixing'. How many people are reading this with the issue but don't even realise it as a problem until they try the setting to see the difference?

Edited December 4, 2012 by madeinbeats

[Dcubed]

This is the first piece of AV input equipment I've ever had to be accommodating of with this TV. Surely leaving things the way they are would confuse people more, I doubt hardly anyone knows what TV calibration is or if they need it, they just want to plug stuff to plug and play, so if there's something Nintendo can patch to help this then that should do it.

 

With my TV doing it, and DF constantly yammering on about it I assumed it was something a high percentage of people were experiencing. I mean, how many TVs or monitors are out there that can't compensate for it? If it's a few hundred/thousand, then it's something that definitely needs 'fixing'. How many people are reading this with the issue but don't even realise it as a problem until they try the setting to see the difference?

 

For the majority of people, who would have a limited range HDMI TV (the standard wasn't introduced until 2007 and didn't really become common until 2008/9), turning on Full Range RGB would actually lower image quality (as it would cut off the upper and lower RGB boundaries - resulting in greyish whites and crushed blacks).

 

Every HDTV however is capable of properly displaying limited range RGB signals however and it is the standard that all BD movies and TV broadcasts are designed for.

 

Full Range RGB is only used by PCs, the Xbox 360 slim and the PS3. Most people's settings will not be designed for these devices anyway (only enthusiasts would really care). The only reason why anyone is really harping on about is because of Digital Foundry kicking up a stink about it (despite having the wrong settings on their TV set anyway)

 

If your TV settings are set correctly for Blu-ray movies (which is the main thing that people would change their setting for anyway), you're good to go. If you've got it set for the HD channels, you're probably close enough since you're probably not an enthusiast. If you've got it setup to only look ok for freeview, chances are that you're an idiot and probably can't tell the difference between SD and HD anyway.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Dcubed

[madeinbeats]

For the majority of people, who would have a limited range HDMI TV (the standard wasn't introduced until 2007 and didn't really become common until 2008/9), turning on Full Range RGB would actually lower image quality (as it would cut off the upper and lower RGB boundaries - resulting in greyish whites and crushed blacks).

 

Every HDTV however is capable of properly displaying limited range RGB signals however and it is the standard that all BD movies and TV broadcasts are designed for.

 

Full Range RGB is only used by PCs, the Xbox 360 slim and the PS3. Most people's settings will not be designed for these devices anyway (only enthusiasts would really care). The only reason why anyone is really harping on about is because of Digital Foundry kicking up a stink about it (despite having the wrong settings on their TV set anyway)

 

If your TV settings are set correctly for Blu-ray movies (which is the main thing that people would change their setting for anyway), you're good to go. If you've got it set for the HD channels, you're probably close enough since you're probably not an enthusiast. If you've got it setup to only look ok for freeview, chances are that you're an idiot and probably can't tell the difference between SD and HD anyway.

 

In regard to my case and everyone similar, would we get better results from a full rgb range setting on the Wii U (and TV permitting), or setting HDMI black level on the TV as OP or indifferent? I think the need to calibrate is a cop out and much too demanding for average user on the street IMO., like I say, such things are hardly common knowledge outside of the Richer Sounds staffroom.

[Dcubed]

In regard to my case and everyone similar, would we get better results from a full rgb range setting on the Wii U (and TV permitting), or setting HDMI black level on the TV as OP or indifferent? I think the need to calibrate is a cop out and much too demanding for average user on the street IMO., like I say, such things are hardly common knowledge outside of the Richer Sounds staffroom.

 

If you've got a TV that is compatible with the full range, it'll look better. If you don't, having the option on will make it look worse.

 

Since most people won't have a TV that is compatible with the full range option, it's probably best to leave it out as it doesn't net that much of a gain, even for those who benefit from it really - while those who are told to use it, will probably net worse image quality as a result. That's the point here. The average person will use whatever settings they already have for other limited range inputs like Blu-ray or TV broadcasts. It's highly unlikely that they would've set up their TV with a PC, 360 slim or a PS3 to begin with, so they shouldn't need to fiddle around with the settings really (unlike Digital Foundry, who had their TV sets calibrated for use by PC, 360 and PS3 games before using a Wii U).

[madeinbeats]

If you've got a TV that is compatible with the full range, it'll look better. If you don't, having the option on will make it look worse.

 

Since most people won't have a TV that is compatible with the full range option, it's probably best to leave it out as it doesn't net that much of a gain, even for those who benefit from it really - while those who are told to use it, will probably net worse image quality as a result. That's the point here. The average person will use whatever settings they already have for other limited range inputs like Blu-ray or TV broadcasts. It's highly unlikely that they would've set up their TV with a PC, 360 slim or a PS3 to begin with, so they shouldn't need to fiddle around with the settings really (unlike Digital Foundry, who had their TV sets calibrated for use by PC, 360 and PS3 games before using a Wii U).

 

So then, why is it, in my case at least, that the Wii U is the only HDMI input that's needed calibration to achieve picture balance? Could it be that some inputs on the TV are full RGB and others are limited? The only reason I use a USB screen calibrator on my PC is for web and graphic design where true screen/printcolour representation is needed. There's something at the back of my mind telling me I read one of the HDMI ports was different to the other 2 - I might be getting that mixed up with the rgb scart input but might check on it tomorrow.

[Dcubed]

So then, why is it, in my case at least, that the Wii U is the only HDMI input that's needed calibration to achieve picture balance? Could it be that some inputs on the TV are full RGB and others are limited? The only reason I use a USB screen calibrator on my PC is for web and graphic design where true screen/printcolour representation is needed. There's something at the back of my mind telling me I read one of the HDMI ports was different to the other 2 - I might be getting that mixed up with the rgb scart input but might check on it tomorrow.

 

Your settings are probably shared amongst all inputs on your TV then in that case. Either that, or you've used the same HDMI input with your PC at some point and your settings were already calibrated for your PC (meaning that they needed to be changed back for Limited RGB sources)

 

Check to see if your different HDMI ports are using the same settings. If they are, use different pre-sets (that have been modified by you of course!) for your PC and your Wii U/TV/BD Player and just switch as needed. You'll get the best results that way, with the minimum amount of effort needed

[madeinbeats]

Your settings are probably shared amongst all inputs on your TV then in that case. Either that, or you've used the same HDMI input with your PC at some point and your settings were already calibrated for your PC (meaning that they needed to be changed back for Limited RGB sources)

 

Check to see if your different HDMI ports are using the same settings. If they are, use different pre-sets (that have been modified by you of course!) for your PC and your Wii U/TV/BD Player and just switch as needed. You'll get the best results that way, with the minimum amount of effort needed

 

No, every input is totally independent of each other. Here's an interesting statistic though, on my cable box input, that HDMI black level option is greyed out so I can't change it. That cable TiVo box has no rgb signal or black level settings it self. I'd swap the leads round to see if it's the ports or the TV detecting the signal, but I've already had an HDMI board blow on a TiVo box so I'm a bit funny about messing with the setup.

[Dcubed]

No, every input is totally independent of each other. Here's an interesting statistic though, on my cable box input, that HDMI black level option is greyed out so I can't change it. That cable TiVo box has no rgb signal or black level settings it self. I'd swap the leads round to see if it's the ports or the TV detecting the signal, but I've already had an HDMI board blow on a TiVo box so I'm a bit funny about messing with the setup.

 

Weird... I wouldn't have thought that it would be able to detect that. Give it a go anyway and see what happens; could also be that the HDMI lead you're using is 1.2 I guess. Deep Colour requires HDMI 1.3 or up (which is why it only works with the 360 slim and not the old fatty one)

[kingotnw]

I'm sorry, but stating the limited RGB is not a problem, as the poster above seems to be implying, is flat out wrong. Right out of the box it is immediately noticeable to me. My tv (actually all 4 of them) are all set up for full range RGB, as that is what everything I own pushes to the TV. All of my devices run into a high end receiver, and from there into the TV, so adjusting the black levels for a limited range is not so easy for me. I would have to go into the TV menu every time and do this, as well as cranking down the game slider in game. They just need to put the option there to fix this. For instance... I don't ever use anything like Netflix or Hulu plus on my WiiU over my PS3 due to the fact that my TV black levels are not set for that. It looks horribly washed out compared to everything else.

 

Saying that most people's TVs don't have that feature, at least here in America, is ridiculous. As I stated earlier, all four of my TVs have full RGB capability. I'm in the US though, and maybe the standard is more common here than in Euorpe. All in all, I just don't understand why they have not included the option to enable it. Clearly the machine has the capability to do so if they want it to. Why make it so hard for me? I should NOT have to go into my TV menu and adjust setting back and forth every time my WiiU is used.