Haden

I just watched them all again. My God. I feel like cartman now. I want the Wii so so badly! I dont think I have really relised but a new damn zelda game is coming soon! And it looks magnificent!

rofl taht episode was great. I liked its take on atheism.

Cube Game your a legend! Those movies. OMG the

Man. Let me tell you something. We live in a world where there is a little something called pride. If you try and humilate The Bard in this manner. And I am not condoning the way he has acted in this thread. Either number 1 he will carry on falming you and derailing this thread. Or number 2 he will attack you in every other thread you both post in. You have two options either make up and just agree not to flame each other. Or press the ignore user button and you dont have to deal with him. Anyway back to the killers I was going to use the presale link to get tickets fro my friend but I lack money.

I want to marry that screenshot.

Thats always ill but I think I murded it to pieces last night!

Strong strong line up there. A few dark horses I am intrested in. May even get Madden if it gets good reviews.

And the bad news is that means they will never hate themselves! Get it! Im sorry... As for the video and song hmm meh tbh I like the killers but didnt find that very intresting.

lol it was my friends 21st last night which was uber fun so I got to trick my conscience with alchol!

No no I was looking for an answer. And its a unirevsal one. Oh man Im to drunk to explain atm erm ifor normal peopts unirversal and its not just forn physocys. But thanks anyway I think the theres no reason comment I got from Ian is the best one tbh. Oh man LYN im gonna be sick!

Just why it would be wrong indivdually to kill someone if I can gain from it if theres no outside authority. Not like why I cant or what my biological group herd mechanics tell me what might happen to me. Anyway thanks for the answers. Sorry if I have been pedantic and thanks to everyone I can now carry out my assination of Flinky and nick his DS!

Still doesnt answer my question. As the whole purpose is that noone else will find out. Again its answering the dont do it becasue of society thing. I am talking about questions of indivdual conscience.

Yeh it does! I jest. I am just intrigued by this counciousness thing. I guess this topic has gone off the rails slightly as I introduced murder instead of say stealing as the action. People have murded in cold blood for their own benifit. I mean this really is just a fact. Often as a last resort and probably in the least unpleasant way as possible but just look at say the old bailey court records and you would find that. Mooogleviper I am intrested in what you say about morality. If this doesnt come from genitics where does this feeling come from? Society is I guess what your saying. To be honest this topic is wearing me down slightly and I think it has run its course. Noone has really adressed my question of why shouldnt I do this not if I can or not which is what I have wanted answered from page 1. I will stop posting unless someone answers this as I dont want to seem like I am trying to create a flame war. Thank you for everyone contributions though. I will let you guys know if I have any other philisophical worries! Again thanks and probably over and out.

Ah man Aimless. You are either a king among men or a tad naive. If you follow your conciouness to a tee then my hat goes off to you! Im literally not being sarcastic as I know I cant. Macbeth while fictional really looks into the King killing phenoman wonderfully. Heres a few real life ones. This chaotic state of affairs would prove short-lived. Xerxes II only ruled for forty-five days. He was reportedly murdered while drunk by Pharnacyas and Menostanes on Sogdianus' orders. Sogdianus apparently gained the support of his regions. He was himself killed by Arbarios, commander of the cavalry. He had only reigned for six months and fifteen days. Darius II became the sole ruler of the Persian Empire and would reign till 404 BC. Eric IX of Sweden (or Erik the Lawgiver or Erik the Saint. In Swedish he is simply known as Erik den helige or Sankt Erik which translates as Erik the Holy and Saint Erik respectively) (c. 1120 – May 18, 1160) was a Swedish king c.1150 – 1160. Eric was an Upland lord, son of a lord Jedvard (Edward), due to which contemporary sources call him also Eric Jedvardson. He was a rival king, from 1150, to Sverker the Elder who had ascended the throne c.1130 and was murdered 1156, after which Eric was recognized in most or all provinces. Eric's reign ended when he was murdered in Uppsala. He's said to have been murdered by Emund Ulvbane, an assassin who was hired by people working for the Sverker dynasty, in order for them to regain the control of the kingdom Simon Maccabaeus In February 135 BC, he was assassinated at the instigation of his son-in-law Ptolemy. Simon was followed by his third son, John Hyrcanus, whose two elder brothers, Mattathias and Judah, had been murdered, together with their father. and a byzantine one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezezius These men all had motives I am not denying that and bypassed their conciouness to gain power.

Apparently Ricard smothered his own nephews with a pillow! But to be honest all I want and I have enjoyed the discussions we have had around this suject. Is for anyone atheist or not to tell me why it is 'wrong' to kill someone for your own ends.

Hey thanks for the uber reply I will try and address each point. Phocas is an intresting case I am studying him at the moment. He did react to a seen wrong done to him but his motivations were for power and morality really didnt get in his way. Some of the things he got up to were pretty horrific. They were seen as a justification for the Persian King to declare war! But I see your point so we will move on to. Yep Richard 3rd. If this happened it was pure power politics a murder for power against his own nephews? So family ties and children empathy bonds broken for powers sake! Ok your point about criminal organisations. Some who had control of say a whole town would just kill people in the open or behind closed doors for pure power econmic gain. Happened with the mafia in the 30s and look at Sven Samuriu if you want a fictiocious account. Reasons for wanting power may have a good cause in the end. Helping your family your nation etc. They mayy be completely self serving. I kind of dont know what your looking for here. A real life example. If you want me to trawl my history books or wikipedia I will. But I mean this sort of thing happens all the time. Look at the Sudan warlords battling for power, overthrowing themselves for supermacy or others. By unprovoked I dont mean without a cause in the sense that the person wouldnt profit from it. I mean without a moral cause. Like the person has been wronged etc. Like Kurusha the Persian King that Herclius fought against. He sacked and killed cities that had already surrended to him for pure power games. But to be honest we neednt even turn to kings and the mafia. Small wrongs happen all the time for the purposes of a gain of power. A friend may insult another friend in front of a female to gain respect from her. Bullying happens as one person fits into a group that attacks the weak indivdual. I fear this discussion may spiral out of control if Iopen up to many scenarios though lol. To teh morality thing. I dont mean without morality I mean being able to bypass it. The thing with this discussion is. I think it is specifically looking at atheism because of its lack of outside rules. And in this sense I am singling it out because of this uniqeness. I am not attacking it it just fits perfectly into the line of thought taht this discussion of morality entails. In fact without atheism this discussion would be impsossible. And yeh I guess so poor old Paxman what a legend. But I do think there is an answer to this that is relativly simple but noone is answering it. Thanks for the uber reply though! No no quite the opposite. I am saying that in our natural state. Without outside religion we still have a moral code but what is it? And again in our natural state sometimes murder occurs and why should we care if we just follow nature as a precedent of how to live.

Ok here we go. I am not saying that atheists cant follow a moral code or do it less or more than people with a religious faith. What I am saying is that if a moral code as an atheist may say, is just a herd instinct for example why should it stop me killing someone. I am not saying how it would stop me, eg scarring me for life etc I am also not saying that atheists dont follow moral codes. All I am saying is why philosphically should I follow it. If you are religious you may follow a moral code for a positive a love of your diety or a negative just doing it so you dont get punished by him/her/it. But because of the state of nature and supernature you follow a moral code. So jsut to clear this up so we have no more talk about this as I have said it so many times. I am not saying atheists are more or less immoral than anyone. I am not asking why I wouldnt be able to kill someone more why I shouldnt. What I am trying to look at in a passive neutral manner is. What is teh nature of morality of atheists and if a person could get away with an action that is deemed as wrong but benifits him/her why shouldnt he? Again peace etc :wink:

I really really am not bringing this conversation up to parade some sort of moral superiority. This isnt the argument that atheism leads to immorality. It is a question about the nature of morality and why it should be followed. For your point of moral codes helping a culture develop best. Sacrificing slavery proberly accelerated the decline of the British Empire. I agree with you that murder and stealing within ones group is benifical for the culture. However what about killing groups of another group? That we see in all animal groupings but is talked against by something like the Good Samaratian. This is another strand and I really want this discussion to be one without any sort of bad feeling. I am literally just raising a question to find an answer not trying to attack atheists. To Iun the do unto others point. This is true but in this scenario noone will know like the princes in the tower murder was probably supposed to work out. Again thanks and again no bad feelings to anyone on this. Or am I just saying that to serve my own purposes or is it a moral choice! I jest I jest! :wink:

The Byzantine Emperor Phokaus overthrew and murded the previous emperor and his entire family to gain power. Sierously in ancient times it happened a hell of a lot. Or for an example that english people can relate to more http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/DelarocheKingEdward.jpg That was a clear cut murder for power of the highest order. Again I am not saying that Athiests dont have whatever morality is I am jsut saying why should I follow a moral code in this respect if I was one. And I dont think that I even need to give you a real example I think a lot of you think I am saying that this person has killed someone unprovoked for no reason. The reason is power it happens all the time dont you guys watch Morse? Sierously mafia members, Buisness leaders etc etc. Im not having a go it jsut bemuses me that we have got stuck on this point. To Iun hmm you have some point but a lot of morality is universal. Show me a culture in which cowardice (dont say the french!) is rewarded or killing someone for gain or torture applauded. Again I really dont want this to descend to flaming at all. Which I feel it is drifting to slowly. I am just still trying to get my answer. And we keep going back to either. I think atheists are immoral which I have never said. Or people dont think murdering someone for selfish gain happens which it must have done literally millions of times. But yeh I wont end on the offensive just on the idea that I hope someone can give me a nice snappy answer I feel like Paxman atm

Aha ok there is a conscience but is it outside the herd instinct? If not why should I care. Ok so far in this thread people ahve mostly been giving reasons why someone couldnt murder someone else just for personal gain. I actually think that this is an untruth. Firstly because it has happened so many times in human history and secondaly because we are not completely controlled by any of our natural instincts. What I really want is a reason that lets say some badass like Tom Cruises character in Colletoral. Who is killing people he has never met for personal gain is doing something wrong. In fact that film is all about this subject. As he cites the meanlessness of life as justification for what he is doing. So if we could move to this area that would be ace! Never the less thanks for all the replies so far anyway.

Its bad for them but who cares as its good for me. I justify myself by the fact that I am following the course of nature in fact this pseudo character needs no justification at all. Ok I really ought to go to bed now lol.

Hmm tbh. I think in say the dark ages on roman times or my period im studying atm the Byzantine era. A lot of this happened. And I mean a hell of a lot. Murder for personal gain was on the top of the agenda. 14 emperors in a few years at one point I think. Although you are right about the way murder scars some people. Even if it is hard to do. And I dont think everyone in history who has done this has been a sociopath. Is there any reason that it shouldnt be done from a moral standpoint? If morality is just group mechanics sorry to keep repeating myself but I dont think anyone has quite nailed that yet.

But I mean lets say we could develop gene engeriring to overide this emotion. What would be left to stop us? I do agree with your and fords points although I see it as consience as I am approaching it from a different angle although maybe they arent incompatible but thats anotehr topic. I agree with your last paragraph entierly. And I will state again that this thread is in know way saying atheists are more nasty immoral etc than religious people. What I am saying is that if you are an atheist if you could rationlise what morality is. Which is jsut bad feelings generated by a certian part of your brain because you broke a group code. Why not overide it?

Ah ok thats intresting however lets say you could get over this scarring or didnt care about it or could even rationlise it as we undertand what it is. Once we got over this hurdle what is there to stop us?

Im not really putting any presumptions about atheists forwards at all. I am jsut contemplating openly what possible legitmate reason could be given for it being a bad thing to do to murder someone.