Anime and manga discussion

[Blue_Ninja0]

I have to disagree with you Supergrunch. There really is an anime for every single kind of subject you can think of. From the most twisted gory or pedo ones to the most average animated soap opera or slice of life. One of it's better aspects is variety.

You just have to inform yourself and stay away from the onslaught of the substanceless fanservice harem animes that started a few years ago.

 

I've watched the first five episodes. For what it is doing it is quite funny I think. Though Kemeko DX is much funnier and provides less fan service.

 

I was expecting a little bit more of fighting though, like the first episode, since it's awesomely animated.

The Ode to Joy moment in episode 4 made me laugh just because of the unexpected appearance of the music. I love that music by the way.

[Rummy]

Man, I just spent the last 2 days caning through the last 30 episodes of Death Note, and I rather liked it! I hear there's alot of hype around it, which I don't quite get to be honest. I preferred FMA more than Death Note, but that isn't to say Death Note isn't very good and surpasses FMA in some ways(only, FMA surpasses it more ).

Anyway, basically I don't watch much anime, and my problem/issue with it is that...there's so much! Like, there's actually so much anime, but more so an actual series is so long. So basically I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend me some good anime that isn't too long? Like...somewhere around the 50episode or so mark? Assuming each episode is around 20 like minutes. Just something short that I could breeze through to take up a few days!

[Coolness Bears]

I was expecting a little bit more of fighting though, like the first episode, since it's awesomely animated.

The Ode to Joy moment in episode 4 made me laugh just because of the unexpected appearance of the music. I love that music by the way.

 

First episode as awesome it was like watching an animated version of Smash Bros with Master Hand attacking her. :p

 

Hehe, that was great. but I agree with you needs more fighting/action. : peace:

[Meta_Omega]

Just something short that I could breeze through to take up a few days!

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is only 27 episodes, but it will take up your life. And you'll feel good about it.

[Shorty]

Anyway, basically I don't watch much anime, and my problem/issue with it is that...there's so much! Like, there's actually so much anime, but more so an actual series is so long. So basically I was wondering if anyone out there can recommend me some good anime that isn't too long? Like...somewhere around the 50episode or so mark? Assuming each episode is around 20 like minutes. Just something short that I could breeze through to take up a few days!

 

Short, awesome anime:

 

FLCL - 6 eps, amazing, mental

Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya) - hugely original and brilliant, 14 eps iirc

Neon Genesis Evangelion - mindfuck, 26 eps and a movie

Trigun - Again, 26 episodes, brilliant series, great characters, western steampunk alternate future thing.

Cowboy Bebop - as above...

Eureka Seven - Not to be missed. 50 episodes of awesome. About sky surfing mechs and government conspiracies.

GTO - brilliantly funny classic, can't remember how many eps... somewhere around 45

Hikaru no Go - if you want something different, this is an anime about a boy possessed by the ghost of a Go player who died without ever getting to play the ultimate hand. It's very different, very awesome, although a bit longer than you said at somewhere over 70 eps

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann - just awesome mental wonderful stuff

Mai HiME - weird but fun schoolgirls and monsters action, 26 eps

Full Metal Panic!/The Second Raid - Mech stuff, really good though, 24 eps in s1 and 13 in s2 and a cute inbetween season thing called fumoffu if you like it...

 

And there's a few more that I haven't seen for a long time or not enough of to write about, but they're fairly short and great:

Beck, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Xenosaga, Ghost in the Shell SAC, Clannad

[Hellfire]

26 isn't short it's normal :P

[Shino]

Add Berserk to that list too. If you got the stomach.

[Dante]

add

Outlaw Star

Boogiepop Phantom

Paranoia Agent

Serial Exepriments Lain

Black Lagoon

KuroZuka

Gundam Wing

Nadesico

Bubblegum Crisis Tokyo 2040

Claymore

Elfen Lied

Monster

Detroit Metal City

 

Add Berserk to that list too. If you got the stomach.

 

The goriest animes are Elfen Lied, Fist of the North Star, Ninja Scroll, Hellsing OVA and Urotsukidoji.

 

What i am watching at the moment is Ga-Rei -Zero-, Kurozuka, Xam'd: Lost Memories and Michiko to Hatchin.

[Roostophe]

And there's a few more that I haven't seen for a long time or not enough of to write about, but they're fairly short and great:

Beck, Ghost in the Shell SAC, Clannad

 

I've watched these recently, let me lend a hand:

 

Beck - Great, but your enjoyment might vary depending on if you like rock music. Mentions a lot of British rock bands like The Beatles, Zeppelin, Stones and The Who, which made me feel quite proud.

 

Ghost in the Shell:SAC - Not short at all. There are two series, which means there are 52 episodes in total. Doesn't matter, though, because A) You can get the boxsets for a cheap price and B) It's a brilliant show.

 

Clannad - Fantastic anime. Great music, beautiful visuals and a bunch of characters who are hard to dislike. Excellent. My favourite anime.

[DomJcg]

Hikaru no go ended in disappointment for me, but it was my own perference that i didn't like it because of the ending, meh it is quality and well worth the length.

[Supergrunch]

What's the point in doing that with anime? Most people who would be interested in a show like that would rather be watching it live action.... Using animation is a perfect way of showcasing something supernatural or sci-fi without being so unrealistic (an anime can look perfectly realistic relatively unlike most live action shows) as to detract from the "illusion".

The point? Well, what's the point of any art? Your argument about anime being a good medium to portray sci-fi and supernatural themes is a good one, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be experimented with. There are a few experimental shows (for instance, Honey and Clover is extremely realistic for an anime) and they tend to be interesting, but such things are few and far between. Yes, most people who would be interested in such shows probably aren't currently interested in anime, but that doesn't mean they can't be. I think the genre has a lot more potential than is taken advantage of.

I disagree there are so many anime and manga, some are absurdly non-PC, others aren't, there's pretty much everything for everyone. I couldn't disagree more when you say that other media is limitlessly varied, I think it's the other way around.

I have to disagree with you Supergrunch. There really is an anime for every single kind of subject you can think of. From the most twisted gory or pedo ones to the most average animated soap opera or slice of life. One of it's better aspects is variety.

You just have to inform yourself and stay away from the onslaught of the substanceless fanservice harem animes that started a few years ago.

You seriously think anime isn't limited in the stories it portrays? Sure, there's infinite variation within certain paradigms, but people tend not to go outside them. For instance, have you ever seen a show where most of the characters are, say, middle aged? If there is one, I'd be interested in it, but the point remains that such experimentation is very rare.

Clannad - Fantastic anime. Great music, beautiful visuals and a bunch of characters who are hard to dislike. Excellent. My favourite anime.

I'd agree with you on that, but some people seem to take an instant dislike to Nagisa - not sure exactly why, something to do with her not being very strong willed. Not so for me - she's one of my favourite characters, although I think Tomoya steals the show.

Hikaru no go ended in disappointment for me, but it was my own perference that i didn't like it because of the ending, meh it is quality and well worth the length.

Have you seen the special? That has a bit more, but it still doesn't really end the story properly - actually, it cuts off midway through the final manga arc. (and the final manga arc sort of ends things, but not all that much)

 

Rummy: I won't give you any more suggestions, because people have given you tons of good ones, so enjoy. You might find not everything is to your taste (this is definitely true for me), so try out various different series before thinking of giving up.

[Roostophe]

I'd agree with you on that, but some people seem to take an instant dislike to Nagisa - not sure exactly why, something to do with her not being very strong willed. Not so for me - she's one of my favourite characters, although I think Tomoya steals the show.

 

I do know of people who dislike Nagisa, but I really don't feel that way. I said on another forum that "I would like to jump into the screen and give Nagisa a big hug, just for being so bloody cute!"

[Hellfire]

It's less limited than most if not all other forms of media . More manga than anime, but anime too. There are quite a lot of shows with middle aged people, of course if you narrow it to "middle age with no sci fi or fantasy" or something, that's narrowing something with obtaining results on purpose. The reason why they use mainly teenagers is because most people there see high-school as the best in their life (as do I), not to mention, being a teen is like a melting pot of the rest of your life.

Planetes for example is simply amazing and possibly the most believable space fiction I've ever read. Nana and Kare Kano, while easily being shoved together with normal shojo carries a very powerful punch and has a lot of real life lessons and issues that rare western works managed to deliver , Lucky Star might be for Otakus, but it's unlike anything else (if it can be compared to anything it's Seinfeld, it's a show about nothing!), Samurai Champloo takes samurais and that particular era in Japan in a very different way without exagerating, focusing on music and a mixture of completly different cultures (feudal japan and hip hop) and talks about japan vs the west, homosexuality, etc... Hell, they can make inline skating, tennis, basket, american football, cleaning junk in space and things one would deem boring, immensily interesting, like Real which is about basketball in a wheelchair (murderball?), not something you see everyday. Yes there is a murderball movie, don't know if it's good though, but the point is, they challenge the limits and succeed more than the rest. There's a variety of themes that you don't see anywhere else, specially not well portrayed.

[Supergrunch]

It's less limited than most if not all other forms of media . More manga than anime, but anime too. There are quite a lot of shows with middle aged people, of course if you narrow it to "middle age with no sci fi or fantasy" or something, that's narrowing something with obtaining results on purpose. The reason why they use mainly teenagers is because most people there see high-school as the best in their life (as do I), not to mention, being a teen is like a melting pot of the rest of your life.

Planetes for example is simply amazing and possibly the most believable space fiction I've ever read. Nana and Kare Kano, while easily being shoved together with normal shojo carries a very powerful punch and has a lot of real life lessons and issues that rare western works managed to deliver , Lucky Star might be for Otakus, but it's unlike anything else (if it can be compared to anything it's Seinfeld, it's a show about nothing!), Samurai Champloo takes samurais and that particular era in Japan in a very different way without exagerating, focusing on music and a mixture of completly different cultures (feudal japan and hip hop) and talks about japan vs the west, homosexuality, etc... Hell, they can make inline skating, tennis, basket, american football, cleaning junk in space and things one would deem boring, immensily interesting, like Real which is about basketball in a wheelchair (murderball?), not something you see everyday. Yes there is a murderball movie, don't know if it's good though, but the point is, they challenge the limits and succeed more than the rest. There's a variety of themes that you don't see anywhere else, specially not well portrayed.

Like I said, I agree with you that it's infinitely varied, but it only tends to be about certain things, and when compared to, say, modern British literature, it seems terribly limited. I suppose it depends on whether you treat it as a standalone genre or a sub-genre of television or whatever - as a sub-genre, it's very wide, but if we conisder it as a form of media on it's own, it could do so much more. I disagree with your point about why anime is always about teenagers - surely if this were true, then it would be reflected in all fiction.

[DomJcg]

Have you seen the special? That has a bit more, but it still doesn't really end the story properly - actually, it cuts off midway through the final manga arc. (and the final manga arc sort of ends things, but not all that much)

 

 

Yeh, i read the manga too, so i got all there was to get, but tbh the reason i was disappointed was because

 

They never played god's hand, or came close to it =[

 

[Supergrunch]

Yeh, i read the manga too, so i got all there was to get, but tbh the reason i was disappointed was because

 

They never played god's hand, or came close to it =[

Erm, dude, people still play go, myself included. Nobody's going to play the hand of god any time soon, and if they did, it would kind of ruin the game. The show is basically go propaganda, so they're not going to make something up like that.

 

[Hellfire]

Like I said, I agree with you that it's infinitely varied, but it only tends to be about certain things, and when compared to, say, modern British literature, it seems terribly limited. I suppose it depends on whether you treat it as a standalone genre or a sub-genre of television or whatever - as a sub-genre, it's very wide, but if we conisder it as a form of media on it's own, it could do so much more. I disagree with your point about why anime is always about teenagers - surely if this were true, then it would be reflected in all fiction.

About the teenagers, no because this feeling that teenage years are the best is something very japanese, I've read it in various places. In USA for example all you hear is that high school sucks, bullying, this, that etc... I'm not the only one saying this.

And I don't get how it can be infinitely varied, but just about certain things. Of course I'm not comparing it to books, because books can aproach lots of themes that visual stories can't because it wouldn't pull anyone in.

[Supergrunch]

About the teenagers, no because this feeling that teenage years are the best is something very japanese, I've read it in various places. In USA for example all you hear is that high school sucks, bullying, this, that etc... I'm not the only one saying this.

And I don't get how it can be infinitely varied, but just about certain things. Of course I'm not comparing it to books, because books can aproach lots of themes that visual stories can't because it wouldn't pull anyone in.

Erm, it is a Japanese sentiment, but Japanese literature hardly conforms to that. I mean, Murakami's considered outlandish and American for writing about students.

 

With regard to infinte variation within certain paradigms, consider say, the numbers between 1 and 10. There are infinite possible numbers there, but the region they occur in is finitely bounded. You can consider a multidimensional variant of the same sort of system to see what I mean. And I think I disagree abot books - there are some aspects that can't be captured cinematically, but that hasn't stopped people making films of everything popular.

[DomJcg]

Erm, dude, people still play go, myself included. Nobody's going to play the hand of god any time soon, and if they did, it would kind of ruin the game. The show is basically go propaganda, so they're not going to make something up like that.

 

My point is that sai's existence was to play go, and in doing so, he wanted to play god's hand, he even went as far as playing the rank 1 go player through various methods wanting to play god's hand. It felt unfulfilled that it never happened thats all.

 

[Blue_Ninja0]

That's a very deep conversation you're having and all, but...

 

like Real which is about basketball in a wheelchair (murderball?), not something you see everyday. Yes there is a murderball movie, don't know if it's good though

 

^ Excuse me?

[Hellfire]

Erm, it is a Japanese sentiment, but Japanese literature hardly conforms to that. I mean, Murakami's considered outlandish and American for writing about students.

 

With regard to infinte variation within certain paradigms, consider say, the numbers between 1 and 10. There are infinite possible numbers there, but the region they occur in is finitely bounded. You can consider a multidimensional variant of the same sort of system to see what I mean. And I think I disagree abot books - there are some aspects that can't be captured cinematically, but that hasn't stopped people making films of everything popular.

Not all books can be made into films or shows, I don't think I even need to go deeper than that, but like I said, I'm not comparing it to books, that's on a whole other level.

What I'm saying is the numbers you defined aren't defined in anime or manga, they do pretty much everything. They do have their cultural imprint on a lot of them which can lead to thinking they're very limited, but the truth is, it isn't. I mean they cover nothing, sports, sex, teenage life, pregnancy, history, sci-fi, handicaps, psychopaths, romance, non sense, business, science, horror, music, pirates, ninja, samurai, religion and so on.

What happens is that there's a higher concentration around certain themes, just like everywhere else. The "genres" I said above aren't Japan exclusive of course, but the lack of certain taboos and the fact that Japan accepts manga, a form that provides more freedom than movies or tv shows and american comics, without holding back makes them excel and push boundaries even when inside pre-estabilished genres. It's not just what they are about, it's what they do with the content. Again, this is more in manga than anime. And I'm not saying they already did all they can or going to extremes, I'm just saying that compared to movies, shows, comics and cartoons from the rest of the world, they have that edge.

 

Also I don't Murakami's being american-ish has anything to do with writing about students at all (specially because it's something most jap authors do), but because of it's gritty and noir style, the american, hell western influence is undeniable with all the references to western music and philosphers.

See most japanese games and anime: the majority of the characters are teenagers or very young adults.

Also, I know math too don't worry, but considering we're talking about something not as scientific, let's stick to the natural numbers shall we? :P

 

That's a very deep conversation you're having and all, but...

 

 

 

^ Excuse me?

http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=142

Read it and while you're at it, read everything from the same author :P

[Supergrunch]

Not all books can be made into films or shows, I don't think I even need to go deeper than that, but like I said, I'm not comparing it to books, that's on a whole other level.

You're right, but people try to make pretty much all successful books into films or shows, with drastically varying levels of success. Anyway yes, as they're basically language free of any necessary context, books probably exhibit more variety than any other form of media.

What I'm saying is the numbers you defined aren't defined in anime or manga, they do pretty much everything. They do have their cultural imprint on a lot of them which can lead to thinking they're very limited, but the truth is, it isn't. I mean they cover nothing, sports, sex, teenage life, pregnancy, history, sci-fi, handicaps, psychopaths, romance, non sense, business, science, horror, music, pirates, ninja, samurai, religion and so on.

Yes, anime covers many different things, we've established that - I just think it could cover even more.

What happens is that there's a higher concentration around certain themes, just like everywhere else. The "genres" I said above aren't Japan exclusive of course, but the lack of certain taboos and the fact that Japan accepts manga, a form that provides more freedom than movies or tv shows and american comics, without holding back makes them excel and push boundaries even when inside pre-estabilished genres. It's not just what they are about, it's what they do with the content. Again, this is more in manga than anime. And I'm not saying they already did all they can or going to extremes, I'm just saying that compared to movies, shows, comics and cartoons from the rest of the world, they have that edge.

I wasn't talking about manga at all. In fact, manga shows a lot more variety than anime, as it's far more mainstream. (in fact, it makes up a third of the Japanese publication industry) This is because it, unlike anime, is socially acceptable, and so is made to cater for everyone (apart from perhaps old people) rather than just kids and otakus. However, only certain manga make the transition to anime, due to the limited audience and scope that the people making such decisions forsee anime to have. If all manga were made into anime, or, more realistically, if a broader selection of manga were made into anime, there'd be much less of a problem.

 

Nonetheless, I disagree with you about manga providing more freedom than films or TV shows. (though yes, it probably does provide more than American comics, which suffer from the same sorts of artificial constraints as anime) You can do clever things within the genres, but the same is true for all media, and there's no real reason to assume that manga allows for more genres than anything else.

Also I don't Murakami's being american-ish has anything to do with writing about students at all (specially because it's something most jap authors do), but because of it's gritty and noir style, the american, hell western influence is undeniable with all the references to western music and philosphers.

See most japanese games and anime: the majority of the characters are teenagers or very young adults.

What I was saying was that common occurrence of young characters in anime is atypical of Japanese (and indeed most) fiction in general. You can't refute this using anime as an example - anime is strange in its featuring of young characters, as are games, which tend to have storylines very much inspired by anime. Traditional Japanese literature isn't generally about people that young, and if we're to look at contemporary literature, then young characters are more common, but by no means near-ubiquitous like they are in anime. And yes, the other factors you mentioned along with a pared down writing style do contribute to Murakami's Western-seeming style (although the gritty Noir-type writing is less common in his later works), but I have heard before that his choice to write about young people is also somewhat Western, presumably because it conflicts with classic Japanese literature. And this isn't only true for literature - dramas and films also don't have a near-exclusive focus on the younger generation.

Also, I know math too don't worry, but considering we're talking about something not as scientific, let's stick to the natural numbers shall we? :P

It's an analogy - I'm not actually talking about maths, I'm talking about a phase-space of possible genres, defined by a certain number of continuous dimensions. Each form of media encompasses a certain characteristic chunk of this space, which covers various hazily defined patches which we think of as different genres. These chunks have finite boundaries so something from one form of media cannot be about anything, but it can be about a multitude of different things, and as the dimensions are continuous, this multitude is infinite, despite the fact it doesn't encompass everything. All I'm trying to say is that the anime chunk could easily be larger, as there are many genres that exist that people could make anime about but do not, and I think this is a pity. It may seem like I'm making this needlessly complex, but I'm just trying to explain what I mean by possible genres being something that is infinite yet bounded.

 

Ultimately, I suppose the problem arises from the fact that anime is constrained by its audience. If this audience is enlarged, and it becomes more mainstream, then I think that further and hopefully more interesting genres will develop.

[Hellfire]

Oh, I thought we were talking about anime and manga, I believe I said so in my first post but can't be bothered checking :P

It's not that manga itself can, in form, provide more freedom, it's that in results, it does. It has nothing to do with the format, it's due to its acceptance in Japan as a legitimate art form as you said.

 

I don't know any Japanese literature, but anime, manga and games certainly do use a lot of teenagers and being the more recent media formats, perhaps the most popular not to mention that they touch varied age groups (as do books of course, but unfortunately younger people don't read as much. I don't know how it is in Japan and I'm shooting in the dark here, but with Kanji and the time it takes to learn how to read everything asides from Hiragana, I'm guessing you can't read a lot of books until you're a little older), I think it's not entirely unreasonable to assume this is the latest trend. TV shows also go the teenage route from what I've seen and the few movies I watched too, but those I'm not very comfortable with. It's no doubt a recent thing. In literature, as I said, I don't know, but in other forms of media it's certainly happening.

 

Audience problem? Perhaps. The problem, to me, is mainly that everyone watches TV, so obviously, the same risks taken in paper format will never be taken, there will always be more inibitions. Happens in the west too.

So becoming even more mainstream, probably wouldn't do much in that aspect, because it's not that certain audiences would or wouldn't watch, it's more that networks prefer to take a safer route.

Anime already has a huuuge crowd, it's not just seen by kids, so I would call it a social acceptence problem rather than an audience problem.Of course that with more people seeing them, the probability certain genres would be successful would rise, so it couldn't hurt. I'm guessing that's what you meant too, if anime had the freedom manga did, there would be more "genres". However, with western TV and movies being in the same situation, probably even more restricted, doesn't matter much.

 

I don't feel any problem anyway, anime still touches more things in a better way than western shows (to me of course), there are so many different shows and genres out there, things completly original and unexpected and in the manga market even more, so I can't complain. Again, not saying anime already did everything possible, nothing did, nothing will ever will, I just don't feel it's that noticeably restricted.

 

Sorry if my logic's a mess, my head's a mess too :P

[Blue_Ninja0]

You guys just blocked the flow of this thread. I hope you're happy.

 

J/k, I've read every single word actually. Yeah, I'm crazy.

 

http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=142

Read it and while you're at it, read everything from the same author :P

 

Hmm. Not surprisingly, it's from the guy who wrote Slam Dunk.

[Guest Stefkov]

Watched Detroit Metal City a few nights ago.

Incredible. Loved every minute of it.