Religion

[Jamba]

Thought I would give this thread a little bump after Gaggle n Haden brought up some stuff.

 

I don't have any problem with anybody being any religion as such but what I don't like is organised religion. In my eyes, people have their own personalities and issues and so they interpret what their religion means to them. I find it strange that a group of people such as Christians or Muslims regard themselves as having things in common with each other, enough so to label themselves so. But in reality would it not be better for people to say "I believe in God, in the Christian sense" so showing their general orientation to the subject but still leaving them open to have interactions from people from an Islamic background, for instance, and sharing so much.

 

Does anyone else share my view?

[Haden]

Thought I would give this thread a little bump after Gaggle n Haden brought up some stuff.

 

I don't have any problem with anybody being any religion as such but what I don't like is organised religion. In my eyes, people have their own personalities and issues and so they interpret what their religion means to them. I find it strange that a group of people such as Christians or Muslims regard themselves as having things in common with each other, enough so to label themselves so. But in reality would it not be better for people to say "I believe in God, in the Christian sense" so showing their general orientation to the subject but still leaving them open to have interactions from people from an Islamic background, for instance, and sharing so much.

 

Does anyone else share my view?

 

Yep I agree with everything you said.

 

Expect this thread to derail extremly quickly for every nice non religious person on N europe like you and fish theres a million others who will just say religions shit lolz over and over.

[Jamba]

Well, I like talking to people who are religious because they look at the world completely differently. I always spend some time now and again exploring how I feel about the world but for some reason I have never felt any cohesion with the idea of an omniscient god. I think it requires a very different attitude towards life and as it's such a driving force, I like to understand how people think about it. Not just in theory, like how Gaggle was getting pissed off with everyone stereotyping, but in reality.

 

More recently I have been feeling that i lean towards a polythestic (sp?) belief, not unlike japanese shinto, where gods and spirits walk among us and are just out of sight. I find it more reasonable that gods and spirits are just as fallable as we are so if they do exist, I recon that they are just as human as we and have their own agendas and so on, just like the Greek/Roman gods.

[gaggle64]

My main problem is the amount of pre-conceptions there are, not just about Christianity but about all the major faiths, that some members of the public seem to have. I can't really blame them though, there's just so little religious discussion and debate in the wider media, beyond the immediate religious communities.

[Jamba]

Well lets talk...

 

Are you guys part of active Christian communities? Do you find it really difficult then when other do those stupidly steroetypical CoE things like the onstinct to convert people?

[gaggle64]

I don't go to Church very often, but occasionally, usually with family but always during Christmas and Easter seasons. I'm an Anglican, and I like the Anglican church but it's full of old people. Very old people. It's actually nice, as they're always very friendly, I just wish there were more people closer to my age around.

 

As for the other question, my old preacher (since retired to Wales) said it best in one of his sermons: "As an evangelical faith, we have the right tell people about our faith, but we don't the right to force people to listen." I'll always be resolutely anti-fundamentalist for this reason. We have a right, and some rightly take it as a duty, to spread "The Good Word" as much as possible, but once we start taking over schools and passing laws in order to force people to follow our beliefs, that just seems wrong somehow.

[Jamba]

That's the problem though I think, there's a very big grey area between spreading the word and the forceful methods. This is especially the case if you're on the receiving end.

 

For instance, my aunty and uncle's family are all christian. They know that my family isn't christian yet they always seem to bring it up in some small way that makes it feel like they're pressurising you. Bluey will tell you about this but for Christmas my cousin (the one who I have always thought of as the moderate and who repected our views the most) gave me this:

 

 

Now at first I was ok with this because I thought that it was a compilation of manga as in "the bible of the subject of manga" but no! No of course if was the Bible in manga form and not even real manga but crappy Ameri-manga. So it was rubbish AND condescending.

 

I just find constantly being harassed by my loved ones offensive. And whats worse is that I don't really know how to talk to them about it.

[gaggle64]

What I would point out here is that your relationship with your aunt and uncle isn't the same as your relationship with the church itself. Your problem here is not Christianity, but the relationships you have with your family members.

 

What you should always consider is what their relationship with their faith is too. This is one of those conflicts where the faith is very meaningful to them, but obviously not to you. I don't know what stories they have behind it, but it could be possible that as a result of what they feel their faith has done for them, they might be trying to help you by encouraging you to take an interest, and so pass on some of the benefits. But of course what works for one person doesn't always work for another.

 

So, while you clearly feel pressurised, you say they always bring it up in "small ways", so unless it's very persistent and forceful I would probably just ignore it. Perhaps you shouldn't be quiet so quick to judge them either. Are you sure your cousin doesn't simply think that the book was genuinely cool?

[Jamba]

He's 24 and married. Unlikely.

 

I understand why they do that, that's fine but equally when they constantly try showing me life through christian eyes that I find that offensive. Their relationship with their church has nothing to do with me, they know that I have made a personal decision not start being christian but they keep pushing it on you. For instance, in a conversation when a topic is brought up and they explain it in Christian terms, if you disagree then it becomes a point to them to carry on forcing their point home. Wouldn't it be better for them to just respect my opinion? I respect theirs, even though their explanation is nonsensical to me because the christian explanation is invalid.

 

I understand that as a Christian (especially if you have been brought up one) that it is hard to understand what is like to not be one. But it feels with my family that if they leave us to our own views then they have somehow lost. I'm tired of having conversations with them in which they spend a lot of time and both our energies trying to convince me that a scripture based explanation is a possibilty. The civil answer is that from their perspective it is but from mine it isn't but that answer just isn't good enough for them.

 

Surely the "spread the message" section of christianity would be better regarded as "if someone asks then give them what you've got". Churches are everywhere, Christianity is all over the place. So why must it be a case of taking every opportunity to push the God subject. Almost all of the time all that this leads to is someone being harassed or insulted because they just aren't Christian.

[Gizmo]

The problem I have with Christianity is the ridiculous contradictions that are such a part of the whole thing. I don't disagree with the sentiment - love thy neighbour and all that - but the people who take every word of the bible or the pope or whatever are just blind.

[AshMat]

It's clearly all crap, when some people of a religion believe one thing, e.g. Women can be preists, where others of the same religion are against it, but both groups are taking something said in the holy book.

[Slaggis]

I was doing Catholics in Ethics on thursday. Hang on, let me rephrase that, I was discussing cathlocis in Ethics and about the whole condom thing. Thats why I'm I don't belong to any religion, I mean who gives anyone the right to tell people (Quoting Monty Pyton) "Every sperm is sacred" so people shouldn't wear condoms. Thats it Mr.Pope, God wants you to go forth and help Aids spread. It's a joke.

[Advima]

I was raised in a Christian family and went to Church every Sunday. My Mother "Informed" me about God and as a child, I found that idea very comforting. She wasn't the FIRE AND BRIMSTONE "kiss the cross and say your hail Mary's" kind of Mother, she just told be what she believed in and, of course, I believed her. Then I reached an age where I decided to rethink my beliefs and certain things led me to becoming an Agnostic. I heard "God works in mysterious ways" way too many times.

 

I'm agnostic because I just don't know what happens once I die (I know it's shocking, I thought I knew everything too ). I mean, how can I? I haven't died yet o.0 It seems just as strange to me that people can say they are Athiest as people saying they are religious, both are equally blindly believing in opposite ends of a coin that might (or might not <--see, agnostic ^^) even exist.

 

I am definately not against religion. It is, or at least started off as, people trying to answer the meaning of life and the mystery of death. Death is a scary thing and I completely understand people chasing solace in these idea's. When I heard that there was a magical place full of hapiness for after I die, I was rather pleased. I didn't quite see why everyone was so upset when Granddad died....he'd gone to heaven hadn't he...that's a good thing isn't it?

 

I have a Christian family, a Muslim friend and...apparently a polythestic friend (shall have to discuss this further with you Jambo...so you can tell me what the hell it is ) so I respect religion and religious people (obviously there are some I don't respect, but that's more the person and how he interprets and embodies his religion). The thing is I think I'm better off not being religious...because I would probably be a panicky fundamentalist. Going back to what Jambo was saying about not respecting that he didn't believe in the things that they do, I might be the same...if I loved you.

 

Here is my tasty metaphor:

 

ME: Hey Bill.

Bill: Hey.....ME.

ME: How's it going?

Bill: Oh you know, got aids.

ME: Aah...sucks.

Bill: Yeah does a bit.

ME: Woah there's a shark in the pool!!

(we're next to a pool btw...that's kind of important)

ME: Woah shit! We should warn them!!

Bill: Hey hey ME, shush yaself. Don't impose your views on these guys, they have chosen to be in the pool.

ME: BUT...they're going to DIE!!! I need to warn them!! AAAGH!! EVERYBODY, GET OUT OF THE POOL"

Guy in Pool: Stop imposing your beliefs on us.

ME: But you're going to die!!

Guy in Pool: Get off my hair, you'll tear my scalp.

ME: I'm just trying to save you.

END SCENE

 

See if I believed in Christianity (for example) and I believed that if you DIDN'T believe in what I believe in then you are going to hell...well I would be devastated. If someone I loved was going to hell I would despair. I would have to convince them....their (after)Life depends on it! I can't have someone I love burning in the fires of hell for the rest of eternity!! I've got to save them! QUICK, tie her legs to the chair and I'll put the gag on; "do you take the lord your God to be your saviour? PLEASE DO, I LOVE YOU!! I want to spend the rest of eternity on a cloud with you in heaven, sipping champagne and eating strawberries dipped in chocolate listening to Josh Rouse serenading us live on the adjacent cloud! I don't want to have to visit you in hell behind a glass barrier after been sniffed down for drugs by cerberus, coming up with ways I can somehow get the nail file, which is up my arse, into your pocket so you can file through whatever cage you are kept in to escape to heaven! I mean I could tatoo Hell's floor plans onto my shoulders and get thrown in with you, but you've seen the problems that has caused for Michael Scofield!

 

So I think it's best that I remain agnostic and just try to be a good person. I mean no god would throw me in hell right? Seems a bit drastic, I mean she said she was ready...how was I supposed to know she was an ape?

[Jamba]

Hey Advima! Good to see you posting (and what a bloody post! It's huge and brilliant! Now lets move away from the double-entendre...)

 

Ya'see, i get the whole shark thing and I really appreciate that they are doing this because they care me but what they need to understand that, for me, THERE IS NO SHARK! As an agnostic I try to be a good person in all that I do that, Advima knows me well enough to know that, so isn't that good enough? I like many of the morals from Christianity and used to listen to them frequently when at school because I found the philosophical side of it interesting. But I don't have to believe in God or read the Bible to have a sense of morality because I can reason these issues.

 

Maybe the thing that gets to me is related to what Advima was saying: God moves in mysterious ways. Seriously, WTF? The faith wide scape-goat of Christianity that gets used frequently, so much so that from an agnostic PoV when God or the Will of Christ is used as any reasoning behind any kind of advice or thinking, we just switch off and completely disregard that information. It makes it invalid.

 

If I went to my Aunty for advice about something, I would get given a short piece punctuated by the fact that it was from this verse and blah blah. Now that makes me switch off. But if she talked to me about some real life situations where she applied her faith then I would be willing to listen.

 

Now isn't that a better way of spreading the word? Being a good example of a Christian, showing how faith works in reality not just on paper? I mean cmon... most of my respect and liking of Christian people has come from my Aunty's family.

*Coming next post - Jamba talks about his recently Christian sister!*

[Gizmo]

It seems just as strange to me that people can say they are Athiest as people saying they are religious, both are equally blindly believing in opposite ends of a coin that might (or might not <--see, agnostic ^^) even exist.

 

Religion is a concept dreampt up thousands of years ago to fill the gaps in knowledge. There is now scientific proof contradicting religion (for one thing, the Dinosaurs) which cannot be denied but people simply ignore this because they are holding on to a vague hope of them living forever in a perfect world after they die.

[Jamba]

Religion is a concept dreampt up thousands of years ago to fill the gaps in knowledge. There is now scientific proof contradicting religion (for one thing, the Dinosaurs) which cannot be denied but people simply ignore this because they are holding on to a vague hope of them living forever in a perfect world after they die.

 

That's a very narrow minded view of religion. There is plenty of room for science and Christianity (not all of religion as you so smearing put) all you have to do is look so far as Darwin to know that. God could still be present in the form of fate and destiny not to mention the big bang.

 

I finished a degree in Biology in 2005 and the main thing that I learnt in that time was that science is just as bullshit as religion, just as contradictory and full of individual's agendas. What I think you're trying to say is that logic and reasoning make religion invalid but I disagree. I think that in many ways it surpasses religion in the fact that it is so meticulous that most of the world subscribe to it as they can have faith in something that is so thorough.

 

But to just mix things up, I have had a really good handful of discussions with people about there being something that will one day surpass science, logic and rationalising, in the same way that they did religion. Now it's a bit hard to get your head around but it is a possibility especially when you just think about the fact that science and religion are just ways of us understanding the world around us and ourselves as entities.

[Gizmo]

Christianity (which I'm using for the purposes of this discussion as it's the religion I know most about) is based simply on a bunch of words on a piece of paper; simply something written by someone else. Humans have the faculty to lie, but "evidence" cannot lie. The world cannot lie; humans can. The bible is no more than a 2000 year old version of Wikipedia, and cannot be relied on for fact in any way.

[Aimless]

Christianity (which I'm using for the purposes of this discussion as it's the religion I know most about) is based simply on a bunch of words on a piece of paper; simply something written by someone else. Humans have the faculty to lie, but "evidence" cannot lie. The world cannot lie; humans can. The bible is no more than a 2000 year old version of Wikipedia, and cannot be relied on for fact in any way.

But scientific 'fact' is often proven incorrect, and everything starts as theory before being validated to a reasonable degree. Science also requires faith, and ultimately it is another form of belief, albeit one that is far easier to swallow in this day and age.

 

Also, you are doing the Bible a gross disservice. I'm not a religious person, but even if I don't believe in a higher power I can agree that if more people upheld religious values then the world could be a better place.

 

At its heart, I think religion, much like science, is a good thing that can improve people's lives. However, both can be misused and manipulated to amplify the darkness in men's hearts. As always, people are the problem.

[Gizmo]

But scientific 'fact' is often proven incorrect, and everything starts as theory before being validated to a reasonable degree. Science also requires faith, and ultimately it is another form of belief, albeit one that is far easier to swallow in this day and age.

 

Also, you are doing the Bible a gross disservice. I'm not a religious person, but even if I don't believe in a higher power I can agree that if more people upheld religious values then the world could be a better place.

 

At its heart, I think religion, much like science, is a good thing that can improve people's lives. However, both can be misused and manipulated to amplify the darkness in men's hearts. As always, people are the problem.

 

As I said earlier:

 

I don't disagree with the sentiment - love thy neighbour and all that - but the people who take every word of the bible or the pope or whatever are just blind.

[Haver]

Aimless: I'd urge you to read God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens, or at least watch some of his speeches on YouTube (the latter is a good introduction to the former.)

 

You will learn through reason and rationality that religion poisons everything.

 

Here's a standard speech:

[Oxigen_Waste]

I can't respect religious people. I just can't.

[The fish]

Expect this thread to derail extremly quickly for every nice non religious person on N europe like you and fish theres a million others who will just say religions shit lolz over and over.

 

Oh.

Look at that!

What a surprise! A religious person has taken the points of a non-believer, thrown them out the window, and claimed they're being told "religions shit lolz".

 

This is one reason why I really, really, don't like religious people. They just refuse to take into account the arguments of others. Thank you for demonstrating my point nicely...

[Oxigen_Waste]

Oh.

Look at that!

What a surprise! A religious person has taken the points of a non-believer, thrown them out the window, and claimed they're being told "religions shit lolz".

 

This is one reason why I really, really, don't like religious people. They just refuse to take into account the arguments of others. Thank you for demonstrating my point nicely...

 

Haden, you were totally and completely PWNED. And The fish is absolutely right.

 

[M-PG71C]

There is Faith and then there is Religion. I believe God exists, I believe certain aspects of the bible that has yet to be completely and utterly butchered by man's hands, sure. The difference, though, is that Faith is God and Religion is a creation of man. Nowhere in the bible does it ever advocate on the behalf of any religion, despite what people believe.

 

I don't think religion is good or bad, it is like handling a gun. It all depends on the user's intentions. Religion is another tool for man and it can be used either way, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

 

What I don't like about today's world is how intolerate we have seriously become. People of other religions hate other religions and people who dislike religions hate them all. But what is funny is all of them teach tolerance, love, and accepting one another and yet, few practices it. It is even worse when people try to "recruit" others in X religion or try to sway otherwise. It is one thing to express an opinion, it is another to supress.

 

Even though I have my faith and my beliefs, I am more than willing to listen to others and respect them for it as long as I recieve the same respect back. I refuse to become what people on both sides of the debate have evolve into.

[Gizmo]

Oh shit, the fish has arrived. The pro-religion people may aswell just leave now.