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Ashley

Marvel Fatigue?

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Now I will preface this by saying this isn't a "Marvel is shit and I don't want it" kind of thread, but I did notice last week when they announced phases 5 and 6 I started seeing some comments about how it's all too much now and people are dropping off. When Ms Marvel finished I saw something saying it was going to be one of the "longest breaks" between Marvel content for a while; 35 days. Just the thought of that exhausts me!

I never really got into it in the first place. As I said in the Phase 4 thread recently I saw the newest Thor and it was a perfectly cromulant film but I'd not seen any of the prior ones, nor watched a Marvel film all the way through since Black Panther. I tried WandaVision because the TV homage intrigued me but all in all I ain't got time to keep up with everything.

Just wondering if people are starting to move away from "must watch it all" to just focusing on particular characters/franchises they like or if they still watch every film and TV series.

Give them their dues though; I'm sure I missed out on some points during Thor but I didn't feel like I was  lost and confused by it so I don't think you need to see all Marvel content, but obviously they push for it.

Yes I appreciate the irony of me saying there's a lot of Marvel content (in entertainment) and then making a thread about it to add to that (here).

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Posted (edited)

I honestly think it's a feeling I've seen in people watching the MCU since Phase Two to be honest – probably Age of Ultron? And I definitely remember people questioning why the Guardians were getting a film as they were nobodies and that it was going to drag things out. But I think it understandably came to a head post-Endgame in 2019, closing the book on an 11 year journey spanning 22 films (I'm just counting everything up to and including Endgame here). As we got closer and closer to Endgame the number of films released per year in the MCU increased from two films per year in 2016 to three films per year in the year's following, which was never a crazy amount to keep up with. That's, what, six hours a year, maybe a bit more? 

I think what helped is the mess that was the MCU's extended universe for the longest time, and how shaky it's canonicity was at times under the lens of the wider MCU. You could quite simply skip Agents of Shield because it didn't have a tangible impact on the films, in the way that there was very, very, very little content carrying over from the TV shows to the films as a result of the power struggle between Ike Perlmutter and Kevin Feige over Marvel Television (they were very much trying to do their own things which would sometimes get in the way of Feige's plans, such as for The Inhumans). This started calming down in 2015 when Kevin Feige started reporting directly to Alan Horn at Disney, but didn't really go away until Perlmutter stepped away and Feige became the Chief Creative Officer at Marvel in 2019, helped by plans already being made for MCU shows to come to Disney+ as far back as 2018. 

At this point, I think it is objectively too much, not even for those of us watching, but because VFX artists cannot keep up with this level of output (and there aren't enough of them to begin with), and it's why in the last few years cracks have certainly started to appear in the quality of these productions. I've definitely seen some people say they're just as hooked as they were before (even on here) in light of us getting much more content, and the box office numbers don't lie, the MCU is still by all means a rampant success, but I do wonder just how many of those ticket sales are people watching a film because they want to see the film, or because of sunken cost in the MCU. 

It's clearly had a massive impact on pretty much every entertainment industry it reasonably could at this point, from how it brings more people into keeping up with and being interested in films to taking up the entire film calendar, to everything needing to be a team-up/be going somewhere/be filled with references, and this is as true for films as it is for TV and, I imagine increasingly so in the next decade (just thanks to the longer production time and thus slower reaction time), video games. 

I do think there's a wider discussion about choice paralysis and the dangers of having an overwhelming number of choices with something as trivial as your pick of entertainment to be had here which doesn't just apply to Marvel, but just about everything these days. @Happenstance suggested in the Phase Five thread that you can just key in on whatever you want and that there's not a need to keep up with everything - just check out the Cliffnotes if you aren't feeling something and want to know where the connective tissue is in references made, or watch select episodes - and I think he's right, though I know that's not such an easy solution to implement for myself and some others who view the MCU for what it is sold as, which something that you need to remain up-to-date with and have watched every second of, sort of like it's some form of validation of your level of fandom? It's a tricky slope to navigate but I do think more and more emphasis is being placed on what we do and don't consume by other people, and almost like politics or religion, what you choose for entertainment feels like it's heading the way of being some form of validation of character/potential compatibility in some people's eyes. People have always had a tendency to jump to such extremes, but it's very quickly becoming the norm in areas where it really shouldn't be. 

Picking your battles is going to be key just for keeping up with the MCU itself moving forwards I think in the same way that it is just about every other entertainment medium we may want to indulge in, which is nuts, but also genuinely kind of exhausting to just think about. 

The crazy thing is that, so far, the MCU is the only one to truly make their model a success; no-one else has come remotely close. And thank goodness – I can't imagine what it would be like if we had two of these juggernauts to keep up with. 

Edited by Julius
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I like the concept. It's akin to the way so many of Stephen King's works intersect and reference each other.

That being said, I remember being kind of done with the MCU before it even got going. No, I'm not that big a curmudgeon. :p Hear me out a bit. Comic book films had kind of gone down the toilet at that point (imo, as far as I mind). After a couple of strong X-Men and Spider-man entries, I was worn out from the Batman trilogy--although I might not mind rewatching those again to see if my opinion has evolved.

MCU, I watched Ironman on DVD (remember the hype!) and wasn't really fussed with the realism of it. It didn't exactly tally with my memories of the Marvel Action Hour plus I wanted (and still kind of want) these comic book films to be more like the Tim Burton Batman films--dark and fun--and what those early X-Men and Spider-Man films were going for. 

I watched Captain America in the cinema as I was curious how that'd be translated to live action. I expected it to be cheesy and overbearingly pro-USA, and got a film with some heart to it. I went on to catch the rest of the Cap films in the cinema (not caring for the whole Bucky obsession, chortled at the Pulp Fiction reference...) and I think that was it for me until the run-up to Infinity War when it seemed like every man and his dog was salivating. 

Prior to IW hitting the cinema, I marathoned my way through the Thors, Avengers 1+2, Guardians of the Galaxy Vols 1+2 , Ant-man, Doctor Strange, Black Panther. Gave Ironman 2+3 and the Hulks a miss. Perhaps some others too.

At that point, I felt like I was "in" so I kept up with it all the way through Endgame and onto Wandavision. Caught up with Loki, Falcon and Winter Soldier and Hawkeye after the fact. Then recently saw Doctor Strange 2 (already wasn't a fan of Cumberbatch's depiction) and think I'm done now. Too much to keep track of--haven't seen Shang Chi or The Eternals and possibly more, and what's on the slate is relentless. They are all so samey. Critical mass has been reached. I liked that first Captain America film as it showed some heart, the rest is just quippy, empty viewing.

From the upcoming list I'd lean towards watching more Loki and the Agatha thing, other than that, I'm probably going to decline unless I hear Julia Louis-Dreyfuss plays a big part in something or they knock it out of the park with something else.

21 hours ago, Ashley said:

When Ms Marvel finished I saw something saying it was going to be one of the "longest breaks" between Marvel content for a while; 35 days. Just the thought of that exhausts me!

Right there with you. The rate they are cranking this stuff out at is brutal.

Marvel have done a fine job executing its plan since Ironman. Fair play to those that are into it and are willing to keep up. :peace: 

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For me, it's not so such much the quanitity but more the quality. Ultimately I suppose the quality will no doubt dip if you are trying to make multiple shows and movies all at the same time. 

Despite not enjoying the recent movies and shows, I'll continue to watch them all in the hope that there is an eventual payoff. That reminds me, I still need to finish Moon Knight. At the moment there are few very highs but lots of lows. 

One of my issues with the latest phase is that the characters aren't as iconic or memorable as the ones they've already used, with a lot of them being lesser versions of what we already had. I think this is why people are dying to see the X-Men in the MCU and to a lesser extent, the Fantastic Four. There is a sense of familiarity with those characters. 

My biggest issue with the latest MCU media is one I've harped on about in the other thread and that is the storyline isn't great at the moment and there are far too many loose ends flying about, with no clear direction as to who is doing what. I'm sure behind closed doors things are making sense but to me it just seems all over the place.

I think a reason why I loved the Thanos storyline was because I was very familiar with the Infinity War story from the comics and I could see where everything was headed before the movies even came out. That hasn't been the case with the latest phase. I know who Kang is but he was never a big focus when I read comics. It was always Galactus, Apocolaypse or Dr. Doom headlining the main events.

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I enjoyed MCU films in the first few years but it just got way, way too much for me. 29 films in 14 years with another 10 in the next three, plus all the tv shows? Come on. 

I miss the days where new IP big blockbuster action films would come out every so often. Now it's like no one even wants to compete with the MCU, so that's all we get, every 2 or 3 months.

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Posted (edited)

For me it's simple. The TV shows are too much. For me personally, Disney+ has no redeeming qualities. It's not that I have 0 interest in them, but they are incredibly low priority, I'm not going out of my way to watch them, and I'm definitely never subscribing. Everything I've seen so far I have watched on my brother's account. I'll try to watch relevant shows before any films, but if I "miss" them I won't lose any sleep over it, I'll catch up on the details on wikis. Currently, the only show I'm intrigued enough to actually want to watch is Loki season 2. But I'll probably give Ms. Marvel a shot before I go watch the film.

No, 3 films a year works perfectly for me. I'm definitely not feeling fatigue as I just don't bother myself with the TV shows too much, and I generally still enjoy the films. Some more than others. And exceptions aside.. Currently Eternals 2 is the one I can do without, but it will also be the only film I'm still giving a shot simply because of invenstment in the MCU. If Eternals 2 fails to be at least 10x better than it's predecessor (which I don't expect it to be), than Eternals 3 will be the first MCU film I'm conciously going to miss.

As for other future films.. I'm looking forward to Fantastic Four after seeing John Krasinski in Dr. Strange 2, also after not having seen any of the other Fantastic Four films.

But after the latest announcements, I'm very curious to see how they combine the Kang/multiverse and secret invasion storylines. I don't follow the comics but these are things I looked into out of curiosity. My main problem so far is that the TV shows.. generally just aren't very good, and only serve as vehicles to just add extra lore to the MCU (which Disney of course hopes you don't want to miss). This lore itself being intriguing usually. I was already thinking some time ago if Marvel wasn't juggling too many storylines. I'm no Marvel expert, but as far as I can tell the Kang/ multiverse storyline has nothing to do with the secret invasion storyline originally. I didn't care for the TV show Falcon & Winter Soldier, but I did like the character of the new/fake Captain America, and the Julia Louis-Dreyfus character's involvement. So while I'm wondering if they're juggling too much, I'm also intrigued to see how it plays out in the films, with the culmination in the new Avengers 2 parter in 2025.

21 hours ago, Julius said:

The crazy thing is that, so far, the MCU is the only one to truly make their model a success; no-one else has come remotely close. And thank goodness – I can't imagine what it would be like if we had two of these juggernauts to keep up with. 

I've said this before, but I'm baffled (not really) how DC failed to copy/paste the model exactly. They want the Avengers succes, but failed to build up to it. They're also afraid to commit to the mess they currently have, I'm also pretty sure with some effort they could have salvaged a lot of it. At this point they should just do a complete reset and ignore everything up to this point. They're now introducing characters (Black Adam) that I don't give any shit about, and I'm not going to give a chance because their cinematic universe is non-existent. I didn't give a shit about many Marvel characters initially, but gave them a chance because of the MCU.

I see a lot more than 3 films a year, I definitely have room for probably several cinematic universes. It's just that no one succesfully copied the model that's up for grabs.

Edited by Sméagol
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Yeah, DC rushing their build up really hurt them. I think a reset is needed for them and Flashpoint may give them that fresh start.

I think the Shazam! movie is the best film DC put out in years. It had heart and humour, both of which have been missing from the DC films for a long time. Aquaman was also a solid DC film.

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57 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Comic book films had kind of gone down the toilet at that point (imo, as far as I mind). After a couple of strong X-Men and Spider-man entries

I can definitely see where you're coming from here, and I think a large part of that is down to poor final entries in a trilogy, like with X-Men Last Stand in 2006 and Spider-Man 3 in 2007, which I think retroactively kind of soured the earlier entries in those trilogies. 

57 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

I was worn out from the Batman trilogy--although I might not mind rewatching those again to see if my opinion has evolved.

As in...the Christopher Nolan trilogy? 

Screen_Shot_2018-10-25_at_11.02.15_AM.pn

In fairness, only one of those released prior to the start of the MCU (The Dark Knight released in July 2008, after Iron Man released in May), so I'm not sure how much that film might have contributed to that feeling prior to the MCU :p but, considering that only Batman Begins was out at that time and trilogy openers not always being great, I can kind of see it. 

I'd heartily recommend revisiting Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, both are fantastic films before you even start to account for the fact that they're superhero films, though I do feel the former is overshadowed unfairly by the latter (The Dark Knight is absolutely the stronger film, but Batman Begins lays the foundation superbly). The Dark Knight Rises is a mess, though, so YMMV there. 

57 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

I watched Captain America in the cinema as I was curious how that'd be translated to live action. I expected it to be cheesy and overbearingly pro-USA, and got a film with some heart to it. I went on to catch the rest of the Cap films in the cinema (not caring for the whole Bucky obsession, chortled at the Pulp Fiction reference...)

I really enjoyed The First Avenger too, and I think for me the trilogy of Captain America films is the strongest trilogy in the MCU so far. There's a narrative and thematic throughline there which isn't evident in the other trilogies, it's actually got a sense of musical continuity, and even with Civil War being a team-up, the fact that it is a Captain America film first and foremost isn't lost. 

Compare that to Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness which feels more like a WandaVision sequel than it does a Doctor Strange one ::shrug:

57 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Gave Ironman 2+3 a miss

Iron Man 2 has its moments but on the whole is terrible, but I found myself coming around somewhat on Iron Man 3 when I rewatched it in the build-up to Infinity War.

I went through some personal stuff between my first viewings of the film and that most recent viewing prior to Infinity War, and though the film on the whole is a bit of a mess, Robert Downey Jr's performance is incredibly relatable and underrated in that film, but I think it's so easily missed if you haven't been through some stuff which would cause you to go through some of the things you see him do in his performance on-screen. 

47 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

For me, it's not so such much the quanitity but more the quality. Ultimately I suppose the quality will no doubt dip if you are trying to make multiple shows and movies all at the same time. 

Yeah, I know we've said this in some of the other MCU threads, but so much this. 

Unlike with games, which I generally avoid scoring for my own sanity and because I think there's on average a lot more to say and explore with one game versus one movie, I use an app/website called Letterboxd to track films I've watched and how I've rated them on a 10-point scale. It's come in clutch on more than one occasion when I'm talking to my friends about some of my favourite films, I simply look at what I've given a 10 or 5 stars and can start to talk about my subjective favourites (which, more often than not, has some level of alignment with the quality I perceive in those films). 

When it comes to the MCU, my mindset has always been that a 7 or 3.5 stars is a baseline for what I'd expect - a solid, fun time, eating popcorn while swimming in those sevens. Now, there's a whole other discussion to be had about how impossible this is when I'm comparing something like Ant-Man on the same scale I'm using to score The Godfather, but most of the time it correlates somewhat between where I'd rank the films in a tier list concerning only the MCU and the quality I perceive the film to have. 

Now, this is of course entirely subjective (what the hell does a score even mean? I interpret it typically as some sort of a likelihood of recommendation, perceived quality, and my likelihood to not flip the channel if I walked into a room and it was on), but so far we're six films into Phase Four, of which I've seen five (sorry, Thor: Love and Thunder). Of those five that I've seen, only two have been at or above the 7/10 I'd expect out of an MCU film: Shang-Chi (8/10) and No Way Home (9/10 - maybe needs another watch, but that's mostly down to its second half being so electric); for comparison, Black Widow I gave a 6/10 (Yelena being that film's saving grace), and Eternals and Multiverse of Madness I both gave a 5/10 (if you've seen the films, you probably have a good idea of why, even if you enjoyed them).

The crazy thing is that my scores are pretty much in line with the general consensus based on the average film scores given by other Letterboxd users, so that perception of a dip in quality is being recognised by many. 

It's funny. Pretty much every time I jump on with my friends for the last 18 months or so, it's almost always becomes talk about MCU burnout, and DC slipping up :laughing:

47 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I think this is why people are dying to see the X-Men in the MCU and to a lesser extent, the Fantastic Four. There is a sense of familiarity with those characters. 

Just to add, I think this also ties into your following point about not knowing which direction things are taking, because in terms of pure character count, the introduction of the X-Men is going to absolutely swamp the MCU with new characters. I'd be surprised if it's any later than Phase Six (there's no way they'd wait until 2026...right?), but considering that we're heading towards The Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars, introducing them in Phase Six could also quite easily rush things along.

It reminds me a bit of where we were at after the release of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, when Adam Warlock was teased and everyone thought he was going to be the deus ex machina to resolve Infinity War/Endgame (which, well, arguably fell to Captain Marvel in Endgame). 

58 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I think a reason why I loved the Thanos storyline was because I was very familiar with the Infinity War story from the comics and I could see where everything was headed before the movies even came out. That hasn't been the case with the latest phase. I know who Kang is but he was never a big focus when I read comics. It was always Galactus, Apocolaypse or Dr. Doom headlining the main events.

Funnily, I had the opposite issue where until the post-credits tease of Thanos made him a household name, I knew barely anything about the guy other than what I'd read on a Top Trumps card, whereas probably thanks to the 90's and 2000's animated series for the Fantastic Four, I'm pretty aware of Kang and everything else they bring along (typing this has made me remember that I had a Mega Bloks set based on the Fantastic Four film, the Doctor Doom cape in that set looked phenomenal :D). Similar for the X-Men actually, and Spider-Man, just because of those animated series; heck, I'd go so far as to say that if you didn't read comics, people my age probably had very little knowledge of the Avengers prior to the MCU blowing up. 

I'm really just crossing my fingers for Doctor Doom to be the post-credits tease at the end of Wakanda Forever at this point. 

17 minutes ago, Sméagol said:

I've said this before, but I'm baffled (not really) how DC failed to copy/paste the model exactly. They want the Avengers succes, but failed to build up to it. They're also afraid to commit to the mess they currently have, I'm also pretty sure with some effort they could have salvaged a lot of it. At this point they should just do a complete reset and ignore everything up to this point. They're now introducing characters (Black Adam) that I don't give any shit about, and I'm not going to give a chance because their cinematic universe is non-esistent. I didn't give a shit about many Marvel characters initially, but gave them a chance because of the MCU.

I see a lot more than 3 films a year, I definitely have room for probably several cinematic universes. It's just that no onesuccesfully copied the model that's up for grabs.

Yeah, it's weird, I've definitely grown up on a bit of both but feel that for me DC has done more in terms of giving me principles and something to aspire towards (thanks, Batman), and so similarly I'm appalled at how poor a job WB have done in getting that cinematic universe off the ground. I gave up after watching the first Suicide Squad film, and I haven't actually caught up on the rest yet, though I did check out James Gunn's Suicide Squad (which was enjoyable, but ultimately felt just like an R-rated version of Guardians). 

Probably not the place to get into it, but this is what happens when you base a solo film (Man of Steel) off the tone of an unrelated trilogy (The Dark Knight trilogy) and then suddenly decide to expand because, uh, money, and without a creative lead. Now I think Man of Steel is a good film, but when that's your Superman, you've already written yourself somewhat into a corner – it's not that you can't do a darker Superman story, but there's a reason that more of his darker stories are told in standalone/alternate timeline comic runs, because especially when you want to play a character like Batman off him, them being from completely different backgrounds tonally is half of the appeal! Kansas-raised god from another planet meeting a billionaire orphan who turned tackling his inner demons into an evening hobby? Come on! 

Anyways, even though the live-action stuff is of varying quality, I'd definitely recommend checking out the animated DC films, which are no question the best DC films put out over the last decade or so, with some great and oftentimes very faithful adaptations of stories like Under the Red Hood, The Dark Knight Returns, etc. Definitely a couple of weird choices (The Killing Joke should've been an easy win but decided to split the fanbase instead), but on the whole it's got a great cast of voice actors with plenty of great stories realised in animation in awesome ways. Justice League: War was also a template for how it actually is possible to bring everyone together for the first time in one film, even introducing a bunch of these characters, and yet still pull off giving the audience a great time watching the JL assemble, but sadly WB don't pay attention to their own projects ::shrug:

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2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

For me, it's not so such much the quanitity but more the quality. Ultimately I suppose the quality will no doubt dip if you are trying to make multiple shows and movies all at the same time. 

Despite not enjoying the recent movies and shows, I'll continue to watch them all in the hope that there is an eventual payoff. That reminds me, I still need to finish Moon Knight. At the moment there are few very highs but lots of lows. 

One of my issues with the latest phase is that the characters aren't as iconic or memorable as the ones they've already used, with a lot of them being lesser versions of what we already had. I think this is why people are dying to see the X-Men in the MCU and to a lesser extent, the Fantastic Four. There is a sense of familiarity with those characters. 

The quality doesn't seem to be there, imo. They've got their template and that's how it's going to be, it seems.

Already can't remember the general consensus on Moon Knight but I thought it was decent enough. A bit different, anyway!

I'm not dying to see X-Men, prefer them to hold off and bring them back when it's ready rather than rushing it. I'd like to see Rogue done well, a good Cyclops and get Gambit and Jubilee in there for crying out loud.

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

I enjoyed MCU films in the first few years but it just got way, way too much for me. 29 films in 14 years with another 10 in the next three, plus all the tv shows? Come on. 

I miss the days where new IP big blockbuster action films would come out every so often. Now it's like no one even wants to compete with the MCU, so that's all we get, every 2 or 3 months.

Afaik, the films routinely do a billion at the box office? Reckon as long as people continue to lap it up, they'll keep on making them. They'd be idiotic not to. Just a pity there isn't more substance to em. :( 

They could easily scale back the one-liners and let the weight of some moments be felt more.

1 hour ago, Sméagol said:

I've said this before, but I'm baffled (not really) how DC failed to copy/paste the model exactly. They want the Avengers succes, but failed to build up to it. They're also afraid to commit to the mess they currently have, I'm also pretty sure with some effort they could have salvaged a lot of it. At this point they should just do a complete reset and ignore everything up to this point. They're now introducing characters (Black Adam) that I don't give any shit about, and I'm not going to give a chance because their cinematic universe is non-existent. I didn't give a shit about many Marvel characters initially, but gave them a chance because of the MCU.

I see a lot more than 3 films a year, I definitely have room for probably several cinematic universes. It's just that no one succesfully copied the model that's up for grabs.

What a botch job. Such a lack of patience. With their stable of characters they should have been able to build a decent DCEU by now. You're right in that they should just have committed to the shambles they had and set about getting their act together from there.

1 hour ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Yeah, DC rushing their build up really hurt them. I think a reset is needed for them and Flashpoint may give them that fresh start.

I think the Shazam! movie is the best film DC put out in years. It had heart and humour, both of which have been missing from the DC films for a long time. Aquaman was also a solid DC film.

Also enjoyed Shazam! though I'm not too excited about the follow-up after the trailer. :( 

48 minutes ago, Julius said:

I can definitely see where you're coming from here, and I think a large part of that is down to poor final entries in a trilogy, like with X-Men Last Stand in 2006 and Spider-Man 3 in 2007, which I think retroactively kind of soured the earlier entries in those trilogies. 

As in...the Christopher Nolan trilogy? 

Screen_Shot_2018-10-25_at_11.02.15_AM.pn

Yes, I knowwww. Unpopular opinion. :( But as you note there, comic book films weren't exactly on a hot streak and for me, that trilogy sucked all the fun out it. 

Like I said, I'm open to an eventual rewatch as I might now view it as a nice contrast from the MCU stuff. :) 

52 minutes ago, Julius said:

Compare that to Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness which feels more like a WandaVision sequel than it does a Doctor Strange one ::shrug:

Ey! I liked WandaVision well enough so I'd rather have had a proper Wanda film without Cumberbatch stinking the joint out. :D 

I liked what Raimi brought to that film visually + Wanda but the whole thing, in general, was just so superficial. :sad: Opted out of the new Thor off the back of it and as mentioned, I'll just pick and choose a few things from the next phase chart. Set yourself free too!

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Posted (edited)

Will read the previous posts when I get more time. But I want to say that the reason I'm not really seeing much Marvel or that interested in the newer films and shows is just that the new heroes they want to focus on aren't that interesting or well-known, hence they appeal less to me. I like to get to know new heroes but I don't need 4 or 6 hours to get acquainted with them. 

I haven't seen Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Ms Marvel yet. Nor the new Thor (but will catch it when it hits streaming services) and I found doctor Strange 2 a bit lacking. She-Hulk is not my thing either. But the new Avengers-movies they just announced excite me because they have some interesting source material to lean on. And I can always read up on stuff I missed when I watch those 

Edited by MindFreak

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It's more about having to keep up with everything for you to understand every little reference. Why was the new villain introduced in the TV show? The Falcon and the Winter Soldier had some returning characters, but I couldn't remember who they were. Maybe they weren't introduced before, I have no idea.

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6 hours ago, Sméagol said:

For me personally, Disney+ has no redeeming qualities

Excuse me? It has Lilo & Stitch!

6 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I think a reset is needed for them and Flashpoint may give them that fresh start

If Ezra Miller could stop beating up Hawaiians that is

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I just can't be arsed.

Endgame was a great jumping-off point and all of those films seemed like they led up nicely to that finale. I've been at the buffet, I've eaten everything, so I don't fancy going back for more.

 

*looks around suspiciously*

I wonder if we're ready to have that conversation yet that, individually, the Marvel films aren't that great. They work well in a continuum which is leading up to something, but I'm not finding myself that tempted to go back and watch Thor: The Dark World or Iron Man 3 again.  

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I've always thought the amount of content would be exhausting to keep up with. I tend to just see the ones that look particularly interesting to me, Spider-Man and Shang-Chi being ones in the last year or so. 

They manage to be self contained enough and pretty straight forward that each film is watchable. And like a store pizza or beans on toast they are always decently fine if not exciting. I also saw the new Thor and thought that was ok apart from the lame humour and after watching that film I'm starting to wonder if Marvel may be wary of fatigue too? Because as someone that hasn't watched a single Thor there seemed to be plenty of narrative flashbacks to fill me in on what I had missed, almost like they didn't expect you to have seen everything. 

One that I found pretty boring and had to really try to keep myself awake for was the latest Dr Strange. My friend wanted to see it so I tagged along. Same happened with the new Venom but I found that to be a pretty good time. Funnily enough I think Dr Strange has a pretty good rating and Venom a terrible one, which goes to show how bad my taste in movies can be lol. 

 

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On 05/08/2022 at 5:14 PM, Fierce_LiNk said:

I wonder if we're ready to have that conversation yet that, individually, the Marvel films aren't that great. They work well in a continuum which is leading up to something, but I'm not finding myself that tempted to go back and watch Thor: The Dark World or Iron Man 3 again.  

You've specifically mentioned the 2 (generally agreed upon) worst films there are, which doesn't help your argument. I love the MCU films, but i've not seen Thor 2 since I saw it at the cinema when it came out.

 

Personally I am suffering from fatigue, but mostly from the TV shows rather than the films. I still enjoy going out to the cinema to see the films a few times a year, even if the quality of some of the Phase 4 films has been a bit lower. I'm still looking forward to the new ones though.

 

The TV shows however, haven't really lived up to their hype. I thought Loki and Wandavision were good, but the rest have been downhill from there. They all seem like filler just to have more content about certain characters, without any good storyline in place. I've always been a bit reticent about having shows that you needed to watch in order to enjoy the overarching plot though. I think main plot points should stick to the films, and the TV shows should be self-contained (albeit with cameos and references). 

They need to slow it down with the releases though as well, I feel like we only just finished Ms Marvel, and there's another one?! 

Edited by bob
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2 hours ago, bob said:

You've specifically mentioned the 2 (generally agreed upon) worst films there are, which doesn't help your argument. I love the MCU films, but i've not seen Thor 2 since I saw it at the cinema when it came out.

Ok, then let's look at all of them and rate them.

 

(it goes without saying this is all my opinion and how I view the films, so you may think different)

 

Iron Man - I thought this was pretty bland, tbh. It's alright, but nothing hugely special. 

The Incredible Hulk - It's listed as a film in the Infinity Saga, but it's completely forgettable. Should've been better than it was. Maybe gets hated on a bit too much, but it's nowt special.

Iron Man 2 - Again, works better as part of a saga. Individually, I thought this film was the best out of the three Iron Man films, but it's not genre-defining as something like The Dark Knight, nor is it as great cinema as The Batman. It's alright.

Thor - It's fun, brainless, without ever going beyond that. Proper bubblegum cinema that sets up the character for future films.

Captain America: The First Avenger - I liked this a lot more than the Thor and Iron Man films, and he's generally the more likeable character out of that trinity of Thor, Iron Man and Captain America. Enjoyed the villain.

The Avengers - This is pretty shit, tbh. It only gets remembered for bringing the gang together, but it's typical Joss Whedon in the sense of lots of pointless, throw-away lines that sound great at first, but don't really make too much sense later on. Individually, it's bettered by the last two Avengers films, by far. Not even close.

Iron Man 3 - This isn't great. It's another film to keep the Tony Stark story moving along, which is about all that can be said for it.

Thor: The Dark World - Strong contender for the worst film in the entire Infinity Saga. It's boring, it's bland, and it's a chore to watch. Not even sure if it adds anything other than Thor and Loki have a complicated relationship.

Captain America: The Winter Soldier - This was a good film, and it's part of the strongest run of films in the series.

Guardians of the Galaxy - FUN. Really enjoyed this and it's memorable, it's spawned memes, the characters are likeable, the action is great and fun to watch. It's just an all-round good film that stands up on repeated watches.

Avengers: Age of Ultron - Unfortunately, the idea behind it is far better than the execution. It starts off quite interesting but seems to get worse and worse as it goes. It did, however, give us an amazing trailer and great use of the Pinocchio soundtrack. It also gave us Vision, which is pretty much one of the only redeeming things about the film. You could take it out of the saga and nobody would really a shit, tbh.

Ant-Man - I really liked this. The character is fun, the premise is interesting, it's a little bit different to the other films and it's just an enjoyable watch. One of the films that you could easily take out of the Saga and Marvelverse and it would stand out by itself for its own merits.

Captain America: Civil War - Let's be real, this is a borderline Avengers story - and I use the term 'borderline' in a very liberal way. I enjoyed it, although that airport fight scene is overrated as hell. It's a superlong sequence that doesn't hold up on repeated viewings and...is a pretty dull sequence, tbh. The general premise of the film is good and it's a great continuation of the Captain America films. I like it and it's one of the stronger films in the series for the Captain America vs. Iron Man development. However, my point still stands...it works as part of a continuation of a saga, rather than on its own merits.

Doctor Strange - Quite enjoyed this for its quirkyness. It's fun and the character is interesting. A nice introduction of the character to many.

Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - Perhaps not as good as the first, but still very enjoyable. 

Spider-Man: Homecoming - I'm going to go against the grain and say that I didn't enjoy the Tom Holland Spider-Man films. The best Spider-Man film is Into The Spider-Verse, in my personal opinion. Thought Homecoming was just average and not that impressive. It's the type of film you watch with a beer or with the kids, and then you finish it, shrug, and do something else.

Thor: Ragnarok - Easily EASILY the best in the Thor series and strong contender for best in the series. It's fun, it's colourful, it's silly, and it's wacky. It's out there and so it stands out.

Black Panther - Really liked this. Although, they did Killmonger dirty when they suddenly realised his ideas made too much sense and we can't be siding with a villain. Great film and it's a landmark in terms of representation for black people/people of colour. 

Avengers: Infinity War - Loved this. However, it's loved because it is a continuation of many films leading up to a point, as well as the iconic ending with The Snappening. 

Ant-Man and the Wasp - Not seen it, can't comment.

Captain Marvel - Not seen it, can't comment.

Avengers: Endgame - Loved this, and it serves as a great ending for that entire saga. 

Spider-man Far From Home - Thought it was better than Homecoming, but the villain was ehhh and it's a bit too out there at times, especially the final third. I watched this for the second time with @Eenuh's sister's husband, and we basically just drank lots of beer and played Mario Kart afterwards. It's that sort of film.

I haven't bothered to see anything post-Infinity Saga, because that's enough for me.

-------------------

If anything, looking at the films individually actually has reinforced my idea. The films 'work' as part of a series or continuum. They're about as average as they come when you look at them individually. Very non-threatening, very easy to watch, with a few nice ideas here and there. They follow somewhat consistent storytelling, tone, ideas, character development and so forth. I do think that the 'cookie cutter' terms that get used to describe the Marvel films is spot on, although it perhaps shouldn't be as derogatory as it sounds. They serve a purpose in the same way that Saturday morning cartoons did. You watch them, you enjoy them, then you carry on with your day. They're not ones to dwell on. In 30 years time, nobody is going to be talking about the cinematography or scriptwork of, say, Ant-Man and will be using that as inspiration for their own moviemaking, or at least not to the scale of films such as The Empire Strikes Back, or Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and those classics. They are absolute fine and I enjoy them, some much more than others. But, I'm under no illusions that they're earth-shattering, amazing films individually. 

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I think part of the problem with Marvel films (and i appreciate it's not really their fault) is there success has led to Hollywood becoming very bland. As an industry it's quick to follow whatever trend they can (so again, not Marvel's fault) and unfortunately that has led to more 'perfectly fine' moves that don't really move the dial at all. And there's an absolutely a place for that, just not the majority of films. I think there's a reason something like Everything Everywhere All At Once was so talked about; because it was a breath of fresh air. I think ultimately they were supposed to fill a niche and now they've become the standard it's a drain. 

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33 minutes ago, Ashley said:

I think part of the problem with Marvel films (and i appreciate it's not really their fault) is there success has led to Hollywood becoming very bland. As an industry it's quick to follow whatever trend they can (so again, not Marvel's fault) and unfortunately that has led to more 'perfectly fine' moves that don't really move the dial at all. And there's an absolutely a place for that, just not the majority of films. I think there's a reason something like Everything Everywhere All At Once was so talked about; because it was a breath of fresh air. I think ultimately they were supposed to fill a niche and now they've become the standard it's a drain. 

The movie industry in general seems to be finding lots of safety in/with sequels. I don't know whether these big studios are finding it risky to take chances with new IPs or standalone films, especially if they want to do big numbers. It's good that there's the likes of Jordan Peele making films like Nope, which is AMAZING, and gives the audience something a bit different. Everything Everywhere All At Once is a brilliant film, and I'd throw The Northman into that category, too. So, it can be done. 

I don't particularly blame Marvel for anything really. Their films do well, they're liked by people, but I wouldn't say that they're loved on the same level that something like The Dark Knight or The Batman were loved. Joker is another example where they've tried to do something a bit different with the film and go beyond those typical conventions. You can get films in the genre that go beyond and tell stories about the human condition. Black Panther is a good example where they've either achieved that or come close, and they've given the audience a different experience there. That's a good example of a film trying to go beyond, and they could do with doing a bit more of that, imo.

I guess part of the issue with Marvel is that they are trying to tell an overarching story split into multiple segments, which is how it worked with the Infinity Saga. Tonally, you can't go too wild with it from film to film, otherwise the saga becomes disjointed. Unfortunately, that's happened with the new Star Wars films, and it's an utter mess, so I respect Marvel for aiming to go for some sort of consistency there. 

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1 hour ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

Unfortunately, that's happened with the new Star Wars films, and it's an utter mess, so I respect Marvel for aiming to go for some sort of consistency there. 

Tonally speaking, the Star Wars sequels fit together fine (and I'd also argue storyline wise too, but that's a different discussion). Back to tone though, they work together more so than say, Iron Man 1 > Guardians, or Thor 1 > Thor 3. Ok The Last Jedi was a bit more thoughtful and nuanced and 9 was more of a pulpy action film, but that's the case with a lot of trilogies. The middle chapter slows things down a bit and then they go all out for the finale.

Edited by Ronnie

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On 22/08/2022 at 3:00 PM, bob said:

You've specifically mentioned the 2 (generally agreed upon) worst films there are, which doesn't help your argument. I love the MCU films, but i've not seen Thor 2 since I saw it at the cinema when it came out.

 

Personally I am suffering from fatigue, but mostly from the TV shows rather than the films. I still enjoy going out to the cinema to see the films a few times a year, even if the quality of some of the Phase 4 films has been a bit lower. I'm still looking forward to the new ones though.

 

The TV shows however, haven't really lived up to their hype. I thought Loki and Wandavision were good, but the rest have been downhill from there. They all seem like filler just to have more content about certain characters, without any good storyline in place. I've always been a bit reticent about having shows that you needed to watch in order to enjoy the overarching plot though. I think main plot points should stick to the films, and the TV shows should be self-contained (albeit with cameos and references). 

They need to slow it down with the releases though as well, I feel like we only just finished Ms Marvel, and there's another one?! 

I think it's just so that people keep up their disney plus subscriptions. I only buy it when there's a series that I want to see but it seems like with Marvel and Star Wars I've been subbed for the last 6-8 months straight, and I really didn't mean/want to be. (I cancel it recurring as soon as I've renewed it.)

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