Julius

Pokémon Legends: Arceus (Early 2022)

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10 minutes ago, Mandalore said:

An open world game can be ambitious, it's more a question of does Gamefreak have that ambition?

the_witcher_novigrad.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w

Tell me that's procedurally generated open world rubbish. If only you could have a city like that to explore in a Pokémon game!

See, I look at that, and it looks like an utter nightmare to traverse.

Remember Lumiose City in X/Y? No-one wants that again.

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1 hour ago, Mandalore said:

the_witcher_novigrad.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w

Tell me that's procedurally generated open world rubbish. If only you could have a city like that to explore in a Pokémon game!

Most of those houses are copy/pasted and pseudo procedurally generated.  They are absolutely NOT all individually handcrafted (And before someone decides to try and gotcha! me? Yes I am aware that even the classic Pokemon games are guilty of copy/pasting houses & rooms).

That's just how open world games are made.  They CAN'T be built in the same way as a traditional game, simply because of their scale.  Development time & resources are finite, so you have to make sacrifices if you want that ridiculously huge scale.  It's like having an ocean sized paddling pool; sure it's massive and impressive looking? But there's no depth to its content and ultimately just isn't very interesting to actually play in.

I would ALWAYS choose depth over breadth.  Most games would benefit greatly from a reduction in scale and to be more tightly focused; even in those games where the gameplay is a tertiary concern against the story, graphics & cutscenes.

Edited by Dcubed

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2 hours ago, Mandalore said:

An open world game can be ambitious, it's more a question of does Gamefreak have that ambition?

the_witcher_novigrad.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w

Tell me that's procedurally generated open world rubbish. If only you could have a city like that to explore in a Pokémon game!

I mean, I can't look how much stuff to discover there is from here. Windfall Island is like a third of that space, but every single NPC has a unique design, and is involved in at least one sidequest. There are plenty of VG cities larger than Windfall, but with less than half of the content.

So if the content on that city is as dense as Windfall, sure, that's great. But a single picture won't tell you that.

Another thing of note: Assassin's Creed prides itself on parkour-style movement. Even if a city is empty, the sheer amount of streets and rooftops still offer value to that game. In traditional Pokémon, it's not quite so. For a tall building to be worth exploring, each floor needs to be individually designed, with labyrinths, puzzles, items, NPCs, etc. In AC, said building needs only be interesting to climb, no reason to have an interesting interior. So the nature of the game influences a lot how a place is designed.

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My issue here is not that it's switching it up, (I mean, the fact that I like Paper Mario: Colour Splash and the original should be testament to that) is that it's changing from something that barely any other gaming franchise provides into something that you see all over the place these days, a big massive world for you to explore that has barely any direction or urgency.
It's a case of jumping on the bandwagon and it's just so uninspiring. And to reiterate a point I keep on making, open-world games are just so. Damn. Boring.
Skyrim, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Breath of the Wild. I played all three and they're just so mind-numbingly dull. Walk somewhere for an hour desperately looking for something interesting while periodically getting hounded by enemies that you've long since stopped bothering with because it's just not worth the effort anymore.
I started Bravely Default II yesterday and it felt so good to leave a town and go for a 10 second run towards the place I needed to go. A dungeon, that's not too big, but still has a few optional routes to go down if I so choose, while I take part in some solid turn-based battles. And then there was a boss at the end where I had to take my setup and see if it worked against what they threw at me.
That took me around half an hour, you'd be really lucky to finish the first shrine in BotW in that time.
Now, I'm not like [mention=883]Dcubed[/mention] there. I think he's overreacting and I don't think traditional Pokémon is dead, so to speak. But I just don't buy that it's somehow ambitious to blatantly ape what's the in thing these days. Especially when your series has carved itself a niche that no-one else is willing to fill.

At a superficial level this argument makes a kind of sense - there's a lot of open world games right now, so I could see why you might say that moving to an open world format is "bandwagon jumping".

The trouble is that the argument doesn't actually make sense when you consider the reality in which we have a stale series. Taking an example you quoted, Breath of the Wild, before that title the main Zelda games had followed a fairly established template as set out by Ocarina of Time in 1998. The way you progressed through dungeons in particular, down to Link's equipment loadout - there were variations but a definite template that had been well trodden over several games.

Now per your comment, the adoption of "open world" is to conform to what is currently popular, and to be boring by virtue of being open world. Breath of the Wild however was the biggest departure from the established template that main Zelda games had followed for decades. It was lauded for being a refreshing and engrossing game; even if you didn't like the actual gameplay, it wasn't boring in the sense that it shook things up and put the existing template to one side. It was the absolute opposite in that sense from the game that came before - Skyward Sword.

Most importantly though, open world games vary, so I don't agree with writing them off as a whole. When they made Breath of the Wild they did a heck of a lot of things that weren't being done in open world games, which were influential enough that you are now seeing other games copy them. To write off open world is the same as writing off all RPGs, in my opinion. "Open world" is a loose term that can be adapted to any level that you want - if you look at Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Breath of the Wild, for instance, they are very different in terms of what you do, how the story unfolds, and how you traverse the world. With Pokémon I think we would see massive differences again to other open world games, by virtue of what you're doing; catching Pokémon is very different to going around murdering people, which is quite often what you're doing in many open worlds.
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Reading this, it feels like you are saying that everything in an open world has to be procedurally generated. How about this: the landscapes are generated with guided randomness to make a world that is somewhat easy to build but the towns and placement of these are not random and are carefully crafted? 

It is totally possible to have a designed city brimming with life and things to see and do and an overworld that is big-ish and littered with reasons to go to some place. 

Sure, I enjoy a good game design and a guided experience but to me, Pokémon games have become too boring outside the main adventure which itself could do with some new ideas. I enjoy the core game play of Pokémon and really want that to continue but I feel that the shell of the gameplay has become more and more empty to the point where Sword and Shield were even more barren than Dcubed says Hyrule Field in Twilight Princess is, completely void of side quests and caves. There is literally nothing to do but to collect all Pokémon, a rather dull task in itself. 

And besides, Legends doesn't have to be massive. It could be the size of one or two areas in Breath of the Wild, that would be fine. As long as there is life, stuff to discover, and things to do in the world, that would be great. We have only seen a little footage from the game, it's so hard to judge. And to me, the battles look semi-turnbased. 

Anyway, I like the idea of what I see in the trailer and I suspect that it won't release early 2022. It really looks like something between an alpha and a beta build, it looks clumsy and stiff. But if Game Freak gets some help with the development, I think they can pull a good adventure out of this. 

Edit: And I was really surprised that the Pokémon in the title is pronounced Arkeus. Never would have guessed but you learn something every day, I guess. :D

Edited by MindFreak
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32 minutes ago, MindFreak said:

Edit: And I was really surprised that the Pokémon in the title is pronounced Arkeus. Never would have guessed but you learn something every day, I guess. :D

Not me, I've known for sure ever since Pokedex 3D Pro with it's narrator shouting the name of every Pokémon.

That app will shock you with how some names are pronounced.

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26 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Not me, I've known for sure ever since Pokedex 3D Pro with it's narrator shouting the name of every Pokémon.

That app will shock you with how some names are pronounced.

For me, I've pronounced it that way ever since I was a little kid, when reading up on Arceus for the first time on serebii.net and elsewhere back in the day, and I still remember how ridiculously long it took the Pokémon Company to acknowledge it's existence (and I loved how Pokémon World took little jabs at them in their news section for it).

There aren't many times off the top of my head arc- is pronounced with a soft c, though I'll admit I'm a bit tired so don't want to commit to saying that it doesn't at all. The dude also has a literal arc on his back, so that's what I stuck with. For my friends, it was rarely the "Arkeus" vs "Arseus" discussion (though it definitely brought us kids a laugh), and more "Arkeus" vs "Arkayus". I didn't really care what they said and just stuck with what I thought from the start :laughing:

What set this in stone for me as the "right" way to pronounce it, in terms of anything official, was the Arceus and the Jewel of Life trailer.

Dubbed Pokémon movie title narration has always been an instantly blinding wave of nostalgia for me, I can't tell you how many times I've watched some of those trailers.

Found this funny tidbit on Bulbapedia when just looking up the origins of its name on the English dub pronunciation which I thought was worth sharing:

Quote

According to the anime dub's then-voice director Tom Wayland, the dub chose to pronounce Arceus with a hard c instead of a soft c due to concerns over the latter pronunciation's potential implications in British English-speaking territories.

Just want to add, I think it's fascinating when it comes to naming legendary Pokémon. You don't really think about it, but they have to come up with something which has an almost larger than life meaning in most languages, and can be tied to various origins from around the world (and the same goes for the design philosophy behind them too). 

Edited by Julius

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According to the anime dub's then-voice director Tom Wayland, the dub chose to pronounce Arceus with a hard c instead of a soft c due to concerns over the latter pronunciation's potential implications in British English-speaking territories.

That's it, I'm calling it Arsey-us from now on. 

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Incidentally, if you pronounce it with a soft c, it sounds a lot like "Ar Seios".
That's it, I'm calling it Arsey-Air Breasts from now on.
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2 hours ago, Ashley said:

That's it, I'm calling it Arsey-us from now on. 

That's how I've always pronounced it...

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9 hours ago, Ashley said:

That's it, I'm calling it Arsey-us from now on. 

That's kinda how I knew it was "ark" all along.

Because there is no chance in hell that someone would suggest a name and the English localisation willingly go with something that sounds like arse. If it was pronounced like that, the English version would've had a different name.

It's similar to Mario 64's stupid debate about whether Mario says "So long, Gay Bowser" when he chucks him.

It doesn't matter if that's what it sounds like, it can't be that because there's no way in hell that 90's Nintendo of all people would've OK'd that.

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1 hour ago, Glen-i said:

That's kinda how I knew it was "ark" all along.

Because there is no chance in hell that someone would suggest a name and the English localisation willingly go with something that sounds like arse. If it was pronounced like that, the English version would've had a different name.

It's similar to Mario 64's stupid debate about whether Mario says "So long, Gay Bowser" when he chucks him.

It doesn't matter if that's what it sounds like, it can't be that because there's no way in hell that 90's Nintendo of all people would've OK'd that.

I'm sure Bowser was having a gay old time. 

Presumably the English name is come up with by NOA though, who would be less likely to even think of arse (thinking of ass instead) when coming up with pronunciation. 

I'm actually curious if there's any linguistic consistency in how names are pronounced. Given how English has so many different dialects I imagine there's cases where it changes on a case by case basis (like English, granted).

And this reminds me; when we were at Woolworths we had to recall one of those ride on stick with an animal head things because the elephant sounded like it sang "swing your cock from side to side". Ended up by the staff entrance for a while and everyone would press it when they went past for a laugh.

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4 hours ago, Ashley said:

I'm sure Bowser was having a gay old time. 

Presumably the English name is come up with by NOA though, who would be less likely to even think of arse (thinking of ass instead) when coming up with pronunciation. 

I'm actually curious if there's any linguistic consistency in how names are pronounced. Given how English has so many different dialects I imagine there's cases where it changes on a case by case basis (like English, granted).

Your point there is valid, it's just that Arceus is one of those rare Pokémon that has the same name in every language. So Japan's to blame for that one.

But you're right in that NOA is very likely the one's that change Pokémon names for the English speaking market.

4 hours ago, Ashley said:

And this reminds me; when we were at Woolworths we had to recall one of those ride on stick with an animal head things because the elephant sounded like it sang "swing your cock from side to side". Ended up by the staff entrance for a while and everyone would press it when they went past for a laugh.

And now I'm thinking of nothing but "Do the Mario".

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On 26/02/2021 at 10:28 PM, Ashley said:

Do we know that to be true? There was no indication new Pokémon was in this and that may come later but seems strange if this was now the only thing going forward. 

This kind of stuff is what I find interesting about this project and I know the above is currently just fan speculation but it would be nice for Pokémon to delve into its lore a bit more. I know they come up with stuff in the games but it always seems a bit...daffy. 

 

Someone on Reddit pointed out that Typhlosion's Japanese name is Bakufuun. Its name is a play on Bakufu, which translates to Shogunate, or Shogun. Shogun were titles given to Military Generals in Feudal Japan.

 

Well i like the look of this obvious spin off game, i'm sure we'll see more settlements, trainers and the like, that was a teaser. The whole thing is a test bed for them to learn before expanding their worlds for the next gen of games

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5 minutes ago, Agent Gibbs said:

Well, there it is, that's pretty cool! 

Also something I found funny about all these feudal ties is that the aspect ratio changes in battles, similar to how Ghost of Tsushima did with its standoffs. 

Pokemon_Legends_Arceus_screenhot_10.jpg

Ghost_of_Tsushima_guide___how_to_win_sta

Not saying it's borrowed from that game necessarily, just found it funny that the game becomes serious in battles :laughing:

Quote

Well i like the look of this obvious spin off game, i'm sure we'll see more settlements, trainers and the like, that was a teaser. The whole thing is a test bed for them to learn before expanding their worlds for the next gen of games

I'm actually not totally sure on this.

While I don't expect absolutely no NPC's or other settlements in the game, the way they've set it up could be a way to contextually justify only have a very small number of settlements and very, very few trainer battles (if any). I also think it largely depends on how long they're trying to make the game (if the focus is purely on exploration and catching Pokémon to complete the Dex, for instance, then I don't think that an abundance of trainers is necessarily required, though I could still see there being an "evil team" of sorts), but I see this more as an experimental stepping stone towards their vision for Gen IX in trying to realise the core tenets of Pokémon in an open world environment, and it's there where we'll probably see the usual abundance of trainers, settlements, etc. 

Not basing it on the trailer as such, just a hunch more than anything with how they seem to be marketing it with the town being your base of operations. What I would really like to see is some town-building based on Dex progression and quests :D

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Yeah, don't expect this to have anywhere near the number of towns your usual Pokémon game has.

That's just wishful thinking.

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On 2/28/2021 at 12:11 PM, Glen-i said:

Remember Lumiose City in X/Y? No-one wants that again.

The only memory I have of that city is the really awkward and disorientating camera controls. 

 

The city in the picture I posted is Novigrad from The Witcher 3. For me, one of the standout locations from games I've played in the last decade.

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