Julius

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD (16th July 2021)

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Posted (edited)

SSHD now has an autosave feature in addition to the Bird Statues...

Not overly enthused about this addition TBH... feels a bit disrespectful to the original game's design...

Edited by Dcubed

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Audtosave is definitely a good addition. Although I don't understand the need for multiple save slots, its not a game where you can get different outcomes. It just adds to the saving time.

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SSHD now has an autosave feature in addition to the Bird Statues...
Not overly enthused about this addition TBH... feels a bit disrespectful to the original game's design...

Sounds like a good change, it's not like this game is difficult so it's nice to have a modern QoL improvement like autosave.

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2 hours ago, Cube said:

Audtosave is definitely a good addition. Although I don't understand the need for multiple save slots, its not a game where you can get different outcomes. It just adds to the saving time.

The original game had 3 save slots.  This is just preserving the save slots from the original game.

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I haven't played the game in a decade but I suspect having autosave there will only be a blessing to me these days :hehe:

If I'm in the middle of something in Skyward Sword and someone fancies a game of Mario Golf or whatever else, it's nice to know I can make that happen almost immediately!

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4 hours ago, Dcubed said:

SSHD now has an autosave feature in addition to the Bird Statues...

Not overly enthused about this addition TBH... feels a bit disrespectful to the original game's design...

If you're gonna make that argument, wouldn't the button controls be a more egregious case of that?

Autosave is fine. If you really don't want to use it, reload a hard save from a Bird Statue if you Game Over.

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2 hours ago, Dcubed said:

The original game had 3 save slots.  This is just preserving the save slots from the original game.

But choosing which save to save over mid-game is a bit strange for Zelda.

 

I do have memories of playing Spirit Tracks for 4 hours and forgetting to save.

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Not sure if people in this thread have already mentioned this... but it seems you'll be able to freely control the camera in the remake (source: Nintendo Life), just like in TP or WW.

I guess Nintendo just didn't really think it was worth making a fuss about, but it should make exploration a lot smoother.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Cube said:

But choosing which save to save over mid-game is a bit strange for Zelda.

It’s not the series norm, but it isn’t a series first either.  Twilight Princess did the same thing, even in the original GCN/Wii versions (you could always choose what slot to save your game in, even mid-game).

What IS strange though is the auto save feature, as it actively works against the way the game was originally designed (and is a serious re-working of the original save system; in much the same way as Majora’s Mask 3D was compared to its N64 counterpart).
 

I get that they wanted to make some concessions for handheld play in both SSHD and MM3D’s cases; no doubt handheld/tabletop mode was the main reason why they introduced Autosaving into SSHD.  I suppose SSHD’s solution is less offensive than MM3D’s one is though (which totally broke MM’s design completely).

Edited by Dcubed

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9 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Not sure if people in this thread have already mentioned this... but it seems you'll be able to freely control the camera in the remake (source: Nintendo Life), just like in TP or WW.

I guess Nintendo just didn't really think it was worth making a fuss about, but it should make exploration a lot smoother.

Already guessed this based off of the first trailer, but it’s nice to have I suppose.

I’ve never felt the need for a free camera in any 3D Zelda, as they all have excellent auto-camera solutions (& Z button recentering) anyway; but they’re nice to have for sightseeing (especially in TWW).

Funnily enough, this means that OoT is the only 3D Zelda to not have one now!

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7 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

 

What IS strange though is the auto save feature, as it actively works against the way the game was originally designed (and is a serious re-working of the original save system; in much the same way as Majora’s Mask 3D was compared to its N64 counterpart).
 

I get that they wanted to make some concessions for handheld play in both SSHD and MM3D’s cases; no doubt handheld/tabletop mode was the main reason why they introduced Autosaving into SSHD.  I suppose SSHD’s solution is less offensive than MM3D’s one is though (which totally broke MM’s design completely).

If auto saving (or more saves) breaks the game's design, then it was a bad design to begin with and breaking it will make the game better.

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In MM3D, the new saves were temporary and would be erased once loaded. How did that break the game's design? If anything, it made it possible to actually stop playing at will rather than when the game wanted you to stop playing? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cube said:

If auto saving (or more saves) breaks the game's design, then it was a bad design to begin with and breaking it will make the game better.

Autosaving is not a one-size-fits-all solution.  There are plenty of cases where it would completely ruin the intended gameplay experience (Majora’s Mask immediately springs to mind, but you could also apply this to games like DKC, Metroid etc); as it basically removes any penalty from failure that would otherwise be in place.  It’s very abusable and often not a good fit for classic games.

One save system that generally IS a one-size-fits-all solution though is the Suspend Save (ALA Virtual Console/Xbox Quick Resume); as it doesn’t remove any challenge and is literally just a pause/unpause that stays in place when the power is turned off.

Edited by Dcubed

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, MindFreak said:

In MM3D, the new saves were temporary and would be erased once loaded. How did that break the game's design? If anything, it made it possible to actually stop playing at will rather than when the game wanted you to stop playing? 

They are not temporary, they are permanant in MM3D (It’s the original N64 game where they are temporary; you’re thinking of the original game).  In MM3D, they made Owl Statue saves permanant and completely decoupled saving and The Song of Time; which completely changes the entire dynamic of the game’s 3-day  gameplay structure.  It was a huge sweeping change with heavy ramifications on the entire gameplay system.

Edited by Dcubed

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Autosaving is not a one-size-fits-all solution.  There are plenty of cases where it would completely ruin the intended gameplay experience (Majora’s Mask immediately springs to mind, but you could also apply this to games like DKC, Metroid etc); as it basically removes any penalty from failure that would otherwise be in place.  It’s very abusable and often not a good fit for classic games.
One save system that generally IS a one-size-fits-all solution though is the Suspend Save (ALA Virtual Console/Xbox Quick Resume); as it doesn’t remove any challenge and is literally just a pause/unpause that stays in place when the power is turned off.
Cloud saves now render suspended save options easily abusable so that's not even true.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Sheikah said:
19 minutes ago, Dcubed said:
Autosaving is not a one-size-fits-all solution.  There are plenty of cases where it would completely ruin the intended gameplay experience (Majora’s Mask immediately springs to mind, but you could also apply this to games like DKC, Metroid etc); as it basically removes any penalty from failure that would otherwise be in place.  It’s very abusable and often not a good fit for classic games.
One save system that generally IS a one-size-fits-all solution though is the Suspend Save (ALA Virtual Console/Xbox Quick Resume); as it doesn’t remove any challenge and is literally just a pause/unpause that stays in place when the power is turned off.

Cloud saves now render suspended save options easily abusable so that's not even true.

Only if the Cloud Save system allows for Suspend Saves to be copied; which can be blocked by said Cloud Save system if need be.

Xbox’s Cloud Saves don’t copy Quick Resume save data, and NSO Cloud Saves block specific games.  So it can be done.

Edited by Dcubed

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Only if the Cloud Save system allows for Suspend Saves to be copied; which can be blocked by said Cloud Save system if need be.

Generally they don't unless there's a trading element (e.g. Pokémon) because that defeats the purpose of cloud saves. I've played loads of games that let you upload your suspend save. And so long as you can, autosave is the more convenient option and just as open to abuse as suspend saves. 

 

Also autosave doesn't ruin Majora's Mask, not really, since if you die during the game it's not like you go back to Day 1. You'll still have to play the Ocarina periodically to go back to Day 1 and the end of the 3 days. What does having autosave really ruin? I would save it's a quality of life improvement. Means if you're halfway through a dungeon and want to stop playing, you can pause instead of having to leave the dungeon and find one of those sodding statues. Mind you, with the ability to suspend consoles these days there's nothing Nintendo could have done to stop you suspending your play, so may as well make it so you can properly turn off your console and resume your game.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Sheikah said:
11 minutes ago, Dcubed said:
Only if the Cloud Save system allows for Suspend Saves to be copied; which can be blocked by said Cloud Save system if need be.

Generally they don't unless there's a trading element (e.g. Pokémon) because that defeats the purpose of cloud saves. I've played loads of games that let you upload your suspend save. And so long as you can, autosave is the more convenient option and just as open to abuse as suspend saves.

Even in those cases though, the player has to actively go out of their way to cheat the system by abusing the cloud save system by selectively turning it off and on; which most players would not do, or even know how to do.

3DS had a similar OS level save copying feature, but you would have to actively go out of your way to use it to cheat the game you’re playing to abuse it.  Autosaves actively force the player to cheat as part of the game itself; that’s the difference in this case.

Edited by Dcubed

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57 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Autosaving is not a one-size-fits-all solution.  There are plenty of cases where it would completely ruin the intended gameplay experience (Majora’s Mask immediately springs to mind, but you could also apply this to games like DKC, Metroid etc); as it basically removes any penalty from failure that would otherwise be in place.  It’s very abusable and often not a good fit for classic games.

Autosaves are often overwritten by the next one, and can be tailored for each game. Lots of games with autosave will only have one save file as well, which is automatically loaded, so the only possible abuse would be closing the game before the next autosave. 

I you die in a Zelda game, you typically respawn at the start of the area or room, an autosave that works in a similar way would have no impact on the game (and if some people want to abuse a system for a singleplayer game, so what, there's usually other exploits that can be used)?

Autosave in Metroid would work well, the game can pick where the respawn locations are, save minor upgrades automatically, save when you collect major upgrades (and if you reload, you start back where you collected it instead of the save room, as sometimes the path back is also important).

Donkey Kong Country can autosave at the end of each level. The game would not be negatively affected by an autosave in any way. The lives system is has is open to easy abuse with farming lives and stuff like that. You could even get rid of a global lives system and have X amount per level, making finding the hidden lives within the level more important.

Suspending games can sometimes fail, so autosaves are a great backup, and being able to stop playing at any time is helpful for some people.

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53 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

They are not temporary, they are permanant in MM3D (It’s the original N64 game where they are temporary; you’re thinking of the original game).  In MM3D, they made Owl Statue saves permanant and completely decoupled saving and The Song of Time; which completely changes the entire dynamic of the game’s 3-day  gameplay structure.  It was a huge sweeping change with heavy ramifications on the entire gameplay system.

Fair enough. I didn't remember that. I agree that is against the nature of the game (but it's not an autosave).

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Even in those cases though, the player has to actively go out of their way to cheat the system; which most players would not do.

3DS had a similar OS level save copying feature, but you would have to actively go out of your way to use it to cheat the game you’re playing to abuse it.  Autosaves actively force the player to cheat as part of the game itself; that’s the difference in this case.

You make it sound like it's difficult. It's really quick to download a save off the cloud on PSN, for instance.

So long as the system can be subverted either way then having suspend saves offers no real advantage, and exists at the cost of convenience. Ultimately if people want to cheat they can do it, and if it's a single player game then there's no real reason they should try stop it.

Again though can you answer what real advantage people are getting by having Majora's Mask autosaves? Like I say, it seems to be very much a QoL bonus by not having to leave the dungeon and find an owl statue.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Cube said:

Autosaves are often overwritten by the next one, and can be tailored for each game. Lots of games with autosave will only have one save file as well, which is automatically loaded, so the only possible abuse would be closing the game before the next autosave. 

I you die in a Zelda game, you typically respawn at the start of the area or room, an autosave that works in a similar way would have no impact on the game (and if some people want to abuse a system for a singleplayer game, so what, there's usually other exploits that can be used)?

Autosave in Metroid would work well, the game can pick where the respawn locations are, save minor upgrades automatically, save when you collect major upgrades (and if you reload, you start back where you collected it instead of the save room, as sometimes the path back is also important).

Donkey Kong Country can autosave at the end of each level. The game would not be negatively affected by an autosave in any way. The lives system is has is open to easy abuse with farming lives and stuff like that. You could even get rid of a global lives system and have X amount per level, making finding the hidden lives within the level more important.

Suspending games can sometimes fail, so autosaves are a great backup, and being able to stop playing at any time is helpful for some people.

You’re not really helping your argument when you’re talking about how games can be redesigned around autosaves… the whole point of my argument is that autosaves force developers to have to redesign their games to accommodate them!

Going back to a classic game and chucking autosaves onto it breaks their original intended design; that’s my point.  If you added autosaves into DKC, lives would be completely pointless from a game design standpoint for instance.  Autosaves are not a one-size-fits-all solution.

31 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

You make it sound like it's difficult. It's really quick to download a save off the cloud on PSN, for instance.

It’s not difficult, but it does require some knowhow and active circumvention.  If you wanted to cheat, you would have to turn off the cloud saves in order for your failed save file to not overwrite the previous one; then download the previous save file and try again.  That’s all outside of the game itself.

Quote

Again though can you answer what real advantage people are getting by having Majora's Mask autosaves? Like I say, it seems to be very much a QoL bonus by not having to leave the dungeon and find an owl statue.

The entire game is designed around getting as much done during a 3 day cycle as possible.  Having permanant saves and decoupling them from The Song of Time completely ruins that, as you can just do things at your own pace now; like every other Zelda game.  You can just reload your save and try again as many times as you want; rendering things like Sakon’s Hideout completely pointless now.

Edited by Dcubed

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

You make it sound like it's difficult. It's really quick to download a save off the cloud on PSN, for instance.

Yeah, just to chime in here (as this is the only part I can really speak to), for PSN it literally takes a few seconds. I tested it yesterday for one of my FIFA saves because I just wanted to mess around (aka spend every penny because I was bored) with it outside of its own save feature: you close the app, upload the save which takes a split second, and then downloading that save back takes 3-4 seconds. And then it's just starting the game back up. 

Edited by Julius
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9 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

You’re not really helping your argument when you’re talking about games can be redesigned around autosaves… the whole point of my argument is that autosaves force developers to have to redesign their games to accommodate them!

Going back to a classic game and chucking autosaves onto it breaks their original intended design; that’s my point.  If you added autosaves into DKC, lives would be completely pointless from a game design standpoint for instance.

I'm saying the complete opposite, the autosave is built around the game. 

The lives system in DKC has been completely pointless since it came out, rendered useless by the ability to replay previous levels. Frankly, lives are just a cheap and lazy way to artificially increase how long a game takes to beat. It's terrible game design. My suggestion about changing how they work was not directly related to the autosave, but to actually make likes worthwhile.

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