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Rummy

Logic Randomisers??

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17 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Wind Waker. I'm not sure how a randomizer of that game would work (considering all the sea charts, and that you need the grappling hook to get them, not to mention the sail), but I think I know that game better than Ocarina of Time (which is my second favourite, I also wouldn't mind trying it).

It opens up the entire game world from the start.  You're plonked onto a random island from the start, with access to the Sail and the King of Red Lions.  All scripted sequences, that would otherwise impede your progress around the sea, up until the Tower of the Gods are considered to have been "completed"; so there's nothing to stop you from going wherever you want.

From there? You can travel literally anywhere in the sea (that you can get to with no items apart from the Sail) and grab any items you can find (the randomiser always ensures that the game seed you are given is always beatable - unless you turn the safety settings off :p )

It works extremely well! Strongly recommend a play through! :D 

Edited by Dcubed
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On 29/09/2020 at 12:54 AM, Rummy said:

Re: Fire Emblem - they're advance wars style turn based combat games on a grid right? I know very little of their playstyle but how do the randomisers kinda work? Just thinking back to I think Glen's earlier point of how its a bit less of a doable/impactful thing on say a Mario vs a Zelda?

Your army is made of unique characters, and each comes with a predetermined class, special skills, stats, etc. (For example, Chrom starts out as the Lord class, with the Dual Strike+ skill, and strong stats all around). By randomizing the game, you can change all of that into a random, likely impossible, setup (Chrom may instead start out as a Cavalier with the Mademoiselle skill, with insane speed but low attack). Some FE randomizers even go as far as changing the character entirely (so, if Chrom's portrait and models are all replaced by the ones of rabbit girl Panne, you'll basically see Panne as the story's protagonist).

The randomiser goes as far as including enemy/boss characters in the mix. In the video I posted, you can see one of the students was replaced with the Death Knight, a notorious recurring boss in that game, who looks as menacing as his name. The original student Raphael was a strong slow guy with an aptitude for Armour and Brawling classes, but the new student Death Knight is a Thief with high speed and defense, and an aptitude for flying classes (the player eventually reclassed him into the "Dancer" class, because it's hilarious to see a belly-dancing king of edgelords).

Regular enemies and their positions are not usually randomised, like Dcubed said, as that just destroys level design (for example, like turning a bunch of sea-faring pirates into a bunch of cavaliers stranded in the ocean, or making a wall of armour knights into a paper-thin wall made of myrmidons). Bosses are fair game though, since their position doesn't change, and randomising their class/skills/stats only produces a more unexpected challenge.

17 hours ago, Dcubed said:

It opens up the entire game world from the start.  You're plonked onto a random island from the start, with access to the Sail and the King of Red Lions.  All scripted sequences, that would otherwise impede your progress around the sea, up until the Tower of the Gods are considered to have been "completed"; so there's nothing to stop you from going wherever you want.

From there? You can travel literally anywhere in the sea (that you can get to with no items apart from the Sail) and grab any items you can find (the randomiser always ensures that the game seed you are given is always beatable - unless you turn the safety settings off :p )

It works extremely well! Strongly recommend a play through! :D 

Ah, so though the Tower of Gods is "completed", the first three dungeons are basically untouched (including the bosses), and you lack any items other than the sail? That's really cool. That even means you can get the now-useless pearls from a random chest, right? Yeah, that sounds pretty appealing.

Edited by Jonnas
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10 hours ago, Jonnas said:

Your army is made of unique characters, and each comes with a predetermined class, special skills, stats, etc. (For example, Chrom starts out as the Lord class, with the Dual Strike+ skill, and strong stats all around). By randomizing the game, you can change all of that into a random, likely impossible, setup (Chrom may instead start out as a Cavalier with the Mademoiselle skill, with insane speed but low attack). Most FE randomizers even go as far as changing the character entirely (so, if Chrom's portrait and models are all replaced by the ones of rabbit girl Panne, you'll basically see Panne as the story's protagonist).

The randomiser goes as far as including enemy/boss characters in the mix. In the video I posted, you can see one of the students was replaced with the Death Knight, a notorious recurring boss in that game, who looks as menacing as his name. The original student Raphael was a strong slow guy with an aptitude for Armour and Brawling classes, but the new student Death Knight is a Thief with high speed and defense, and an aptitude for flying classes (the player eventually reclassed him into the "Dancer" class, because it's hilarious to see a belly-dancing king of edgelords).

Regular enemies and their positions are not usually randomised, like Dcubed said, as that just destroys level design (for example, like turning a bunch of sea-faring pirates into a bunch of cavaliers stranded in the ocean, or making a wall of armour knights into a paper-thin wall made of myrmidons). Bosses are fair game though, since their position doesn't change, and randomising their class/skills/stats only produces a more unexpected challenge.

Ah, so though the Tower of Gods is "completed", the first three dungeons are basically untouched (including the bosses), and you lack any items other than the sail? That's really cool. That even means you can get the now-useless pearls from a random chest, right? Yeah, that sounds pretty appealing.

Correct! (None of the bosses are defeated though, so you’ll still get something for beating them).  The Pearls will also still trigger Fado and Makar’s respective appearances though  IIRC, so they’re not totally useless!

You can even set it so that you find Triforce pieces in random chests (or remove them from the game entirely).

The Keysanity option is probably my favourite though.  It shuffles all of the dungeon keys into the random item pool; meaning that you might find a Tower of the Gods small key in a random chest, or in the Windfall Island Auction House! Or you might win one in a mini game! Or in a Sea Treasure Chart find! :D 

Edited by Dcubed
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On 29/09/2020 at 9:07 PM, Jonnas said:

Ah, so though the Tower of Gods is "completed", the first three dungeons are basically untouched (including the bosses), and you lack any items other than the sail? That's really cool. That even means you can get the now-useless pearls from a random chest, right? Yeah, that sounds pretty appealing.

One thing to keep in mind with Wind Waker. While the rings of light that Treasure Charts get you will have stuff from the item pool, the other rings of light that need no chart won't. So you don't need to haul up every chest in the ocean to make any progress. (They still have rupees though, so it's a decent way to make some cash)

I find Wind Waker to be a much more exciting randomiser than OoT because it's item pool has a lot less junk chests (Although that's entertaining in it's own way). The only downside is the various sea platforms can be hard to keep track of. Might be worth writing down which ones you've looted and which ones you need to come back to. (Especially with the Boomerang, which is the way to destroy cannons and possibly make chests appear)

I was enjoying my time with the Random Waker until the game crashed and I realised I hadn't saved in over two hours. There was no way I could remember what needed to be done again and I was too heartbroken to continue (I was almost done). So yeah, save often. Don't be me.

I think enough time has passed for me to ask @Dcubed to reroll the seed and give me another crack at it.

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5 hours ago, Glen-i said:

One thing to keep in mind with Wind Waker. While the rings of light that Treasure Charts get you will have stuff from the item pool, the other rings of light that need no chart won't. So you don't need to haul up every chest in the ocean to make any progress. (They still have rupees though, so it's a decent way to make some cash)

I find Wind Waker to be a much more exciting randomiser than OoT because it's item pool has a lot less junk chests (Although that's entertaining in it's own way). The only downside is the various sea platforms can be hard to keep track of. Might be worth writing down which ones you've looted and which ones you need to come back to. (Especially with the Boomerang, which is the way to destroy cannons and possibly make chests appear)

I was enjoying my time with the Random Waker until the game crashed and I realised I hadn't saved in over two hours. There was no way I could remember what needed to be done again and I was too heartbroken to continue (I was almost done). So yeah, save often. Don't be me.

I think enough time has passed for me to ask @Dcubed to reroll the seed and give me another crack at it.

Quick Q about chests and the logic without me having to delve through - where do the dice isles stand? or are all map/'charty' chests just all mixed in together?

Also have they gone crazy enough to make it so(presuming people bother) that Fishman when shot gives a random or even a leading hint to a charted map section?

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1 hour ago, Rummy said:

Quick Q about chests and the logic without me having to delve through - where do the dice isles stand? or are all map/'charty' chests just all mixed in together?

Also have they gone crazy enough to make it so(presuming people bother) that Fishman when shot gives a random or even a leading hint to a charted map section?

There IS actually an option that does exactly what you’re suggesting here! You can have optional hints that guide you to the “good” items.

Also yes, there is an option to mix the Dice Islands into the random item pool.  It’s VERY customisable :D 

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Well, @Dcubed and I have started our second attempt on Wind Waker Randomiser.

We've managed to get the three Goddess Pearls and the Magic Armour. Not got a single actual weapon, but we did get a Bomb Bag upgrade. That doesn't actually count as getting the bombs, mind you. So we can carry 60 bombs, but can't actually pick up any bombs.

Why yes, that does make no sense.

Anyway, we were running out of places and having to start relying on the dreaded platforms before getting the boomerang. (First one we tried had Nayru's Pearl, because of course it did)

And then we suddenly remembered that Tower of the Gods has an accessible chest without weapons! So we go pick it up and lo and behold! The Grappling Hook! That's opened a lot of possibilities! Now we're Treasure Charting the crap out of this ocean!

This is a very silly way to play the game!

Edited by Glen-i
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2 Triforce shards down, Bombs, Deku Leaf and Bow acquired. Wind Waker is now an epic Robin Hood archery game due to having no sword.

The lack of a Spoils Bag and Bait Bag is starting to become an issue. I have all this stuff I can't give to people because I can't set Joy Pendants to a bloody button!

Anyway, after doing pretty much every platform now, the first wallet upgrade is finally found. You'd be surprised how much being able to hold 1000 rupees opens up. Gonna take a break there now because I wouldn't carry on while @Dcubed sleeps.

Edited by Glen-i
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Time for an update on our random windy adventure.

Booted up the game, we were at a position where we were starting to run out of options before falling back on going to the Forsaken Woods without a sword (2 enemies there can softlock the game and force a save and quit if they touch you and you're swordless). 3 chests I knew we could reach before that though, so back to the Tower of the Gods for a chest that we could get thanks to the Bow we found since our last trip there.

And you'd never guess what was there...

It was Moe's Letter, bit of an anti-climax. Still, delivered that to Maggie on Windfall Island and she had the Sword!

Thanks to new stabbity powers, a few more chests opened up. One of which had the freaking Light Arrows! Haven't even completed a dungeon yet. Link can now use the Bow to delete enemies from existence without having to basically wait the entire game where you have nothing to use them on outside of Puppet Ganon. Yes, it is hilarious.

Also got the Master Sword 3 chests later. You wait ages for one Sword and two come along at once. Typical.

We've finally completed an entire dungeon. Forsaken Woods is done. We've got 12 hearts, finishing that got us a Compass for the first dungeon. Thanks? Still can't get more than a few rooms in for Dragon Roost Cavern because we need a second key.

But it's all fun and games until you realise you've run out of chests. I'm starting to think I overlooked a reef chest, so I'm gonna have to visit those again. Got the Boomerang now, so it ain't all bad (A Big Octo had it, which is typical)

We also got a chart that led us to a Master Sword upgrade! Remember how you have to do the Earth and Wind Temple to power up the Master Sword? Well those power ups are part of the random item pool, so we might not need to finish the Wind Temple and Earth Temple at all.

These are the roadblocks that are in our way.

Skull Hammer - You don't really appreciate an item until you go without it, the lack of this item is blocking off so much. We can't even really start the Forsaken Fortress without it, and we can't even get into the Wind Temple. Not to mention the bundles of chests on smaller items that need the Hammer, Private Oasis, Shark Island and 2 Fairy Fountains. We really need to find this soon.

Power Bracelets - Earth Temple is closed until we find this, a few other big rocks to pick up as well. It's also one of those items that you absolutely must have to finish the game, because you can't beat Jalhalla without them and he's part of the boss rush in Ganon's Castle.

Hookshot - Not as important as the Power Bracelets, but Wind Temple will need it for full exploration and there's a couple of islands that need it too. Also mandatory for Molgera, which shows up in Ganon's Castle.

Spoils Bag and Bait Bag - Yep, still not found them. It's getting a tad ridiculous. Getting both would open about 8 more items. And a way to make some quick cash.

Picto Box - Not joking, really useful item for randomizers. Picto Box gets you 4 items while the Deluxe one unlocks a further 2.

The last Triforce Shard and the second Master Sword upgrade - These won't be immediately useful, but we'll need them sooner or later to finish the game. Won't get us any items, though.

Anyway, getting Light arrows really early has brought about a few glitches. Nothing game breaking, just oddities from using them in places where you really shouldn't have them.

The Forsaken Woods Midboss can be killed in one hit with the Light Arrows. Useful! But because of the special animation you get from killing something this way (The only reason I can think of), the Midboss music didn't stop. And it persisted even when we left the room. Cue us exploring Forsaken Woods to really action-y music. And then we noticed that the normal dungeon music was still playing on top of the Midboss music. So two songs were playing at once, which caused all sorts of static noises from the speaker. It fixed itself when we left the dungeon though.

We couldn't get very far in Forsaken Fortress, but we could fight Phantom Ganon. So we had to try the Light Arrows. That does nothing, unfortunately. Which is weird, because when you fight him a second time in Ganon's Castle, you need the Light Arrows to beat him. Woopsies?

Kalle Demos, the boss of Forsaken Woods, doesn't actually take any extra damage from using Light Arrows, it reacts as if you've shot it with a normal arrow, so it's better just to whack it with your sword. Master Sword kills it quicker though, just like the boss rush version.

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This is a bit of an awkward bump but... in preparation for Metroid Dread, I decided to take a stab at a Super Metroid randomizer. Supposedly it was a beginner-friendly seed, giving me the Morph Ball and a pack of Missiles early on.

It started out pretty well, got the Power Bomb instead of the regular bombs, and when I lunged myself into a room where you needed to ball jump to get out, that room actually contained the Spring Ball, pretty fortuitous. So I continued like that, finding the Long Jump fairly early as well. This allowed me to do several rooms out of order, and made wall-jumping so much easier. I ended up finding and defeating Kraid without much trouble. Also, the Spazer Beam that somehow randomized into its own spot.

RHjqgIS.png

But after that, there were no more tools to advance further. I had what I was supposed to have, but without regular Bombs and Varia Suit. I looked up what I could do from here, found some item rooms I had missed, but there was nothing useful to be found. And annoyingly, none of it was extra Power Bombs (which spawn scarcely), so I was still running on the 5 I got at the start.

At this point I got desperate. I had to resort to tricks, exploits, and/or glitches. I learned how to Mockball, ffs. It's a technique that causes the Morph Ball to run as if it were dashing. Doing this allowed me to bypass a couple of tricky segments, giving me access to 6 more items! MOST OF WHICH WERE MISSILES! I learned that a "Billy Mays" is a room with two items in it, and that you can access one super early with a very well timed jump. And all I got for it was an Energy Tank and another effing Super Missile.

I had access to Maridia, but... for what? I couldn't climb it, so there was no way to get any item there.

And so I had to resort to the one thing I didn't want to do: enter Norfair and blaze through the hellish corridors. This is apparently known as a "Hellrun". If done well, it only takes a minute to find safe haven within Norfair, but...it's a very intense minute that took multiple tries just to survive.

s3IYLGs.png

After grinding my health back for what seemed like an hour (actually just 12 minutes, it turns out), and overcoming a very tricky wall jump, I knew I now had access to 4 items. 3 of which were REGULAR OL' MISSILES. But the 4th item was........the Charge Beam.

But maybe I can still run towards Crocomire, right? There's a bunch of items down there... Nope, in order to reach that spot, I would need to perform the "Green Gate Glitch", a precise technique that would allow me to bypass those annoying gates without needing the wave beam... and I would have to attempt it in the middle of lava-filled Norfair. TWICE!

So I called it quits. I did what I could, and I had fun with it while it lasted, but I'm not doing some "I-need-a-moment-of-silence-here" speedrunner shit to complete what was supposed to be a beginner-friendly seed.

Vmme4iQ.png

Oh, and I still only had 5 Power Bombs. That's just the icing, isn't it?

All things considered, this didn't turn me off randomizers or anything (I really liked the excitement of open exploration), but I think I'll be avoiding the ones where you're likely to need precise glitches/techniques. Maybe I'll try a Zelda one next time.

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10 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

All things considered, this didn't turn me off randomizers or anything (I really liked the excitement of open exploration), but I think I'll be avoiding the ones where you're likely to need precise glitches/techniques. Maybe I'll try a Zelda one next time.

Yeah, I'm of the same mind.

Good randomizers should have an option somewhere to produce a seed that requires no advanced glitch exploitation. I know for a fact the Super Metroid/Link to the Past crossover one has this option.

I refuse to play any randomizers that expect you to do things that you wouldn't need to in the base game.

Speaking of, Link to the Past has a good one, provided you know that game well enough.

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The Super Metroid Randomiser has an option to generate a seed without any need for glitches or advanced movement at all.  Are you sure you had those options checked/unchecked when you rolled your seed?

We did that when we did our one and we were able to complete the game without the use of any glitches (In fact, IIRC, you should even be able to check/uncheck the individual glitches/advanced movement tech required the beat the seed!).

As for other randomisers? The ALTTP one is very friendly to newcomers (assuming you're familiar with the original base game of course!).

Edited by Dcubed

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There were like 15 options to check, and I would usually pick "regular" or "standard" when I was in doubt. Likely one of those "regulars" still allowed for glitches.

I used the VARIA randomiser, and that one had a tracker and even a suggested walkthrough. According to those, my randomised ROM needed "13 out of known 38" techniques to beat. Indeed, the part I got stuck at was marked red because of the techniques I'd need on my trip to Crocomire (which according to the spoilers, would've gotten me the Grapple Beam)

Just now, Glen-i said:

Speaking of, Link to the Past has a good one, provided you know that game well enough.

I don't know that game very well, no. My opinion of it isn't that high either. But I might do one for Link's Awakening at some point.

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