Ronnie

Super Mario 3D World + Bowser’s Fury (12 Feb 2021)

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49 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

There should not be a noticeable performance delta between Handheld & Docked mode (no other first party title has ever had any significant difference in performance between the two modes).  The fact that there is such a delta is proof that EPD built the game for Docked mode without consideration for how it would run in Handheld mode.

Simply put, they couldn’t be bothered to optimise the game properly for Handheld mode (and it’s not like it even performs well in Docked mode either; 720p is pretty pathetic when Odyssey ran at 900p; and this game isn’t really doing anything that Odyssey didn’t in terms of scope).

You can make all the hubbub in the world about “oh, the graphics mean that there’s no way that Switch could possibly run it better!”; but at the end of the day? EPD chose to push for graphics here without considering performance (and it’s not even like it looks better than Odyssey anyway).  They could’ve built the game around the Switch’s Handheld mode and then scale upwards, but they chose not to.  They couldn’t be bothered to optimise the game for Handheld mode, end of.

Weren't you claiming recently that EPD Tokyo spent 3 and a half years exclusively developing Bowser's Fury? Either they can "be bothered with Switch software" spending that long on a 3+ hour experience, or they didn't actually spend that long on it.

I'd rather not say things like devs "couldn't be bothered", without knowing any facts of what went on over there during development. The scope of the game is far bigger than Odyssey, especially when Bowser appears, it goes without saying performance would take a hit. It's disappointing but it's miles from an indication that they've given up on Switch development, given that, you know, we're only half way through the life cycle.

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20 hours ago, Dcubed said:

There should not be a noticeable performance delta between Handheld & Docked mode (no other first party title has ever had any significant difference in performance between the two modes).  The fact that there is such a delta is proof that EPD built the game for Docked mode without consideration for how it would run in Handheld mode.

Simply put, they couldn’t be bothered to optimise the game properly for Handheld mode (and it’s not like it even performs well in Docked mode either; 720p is pretty pathetic when Odyssey ran at 900p; and this game isn’t really doing anything that Odyssey didn’t in terms of scope).

You can make all the hubbub in the world about “oh, the graphics mean that there’s no way that Switch could possibly run it better!”; but at the end of the day? EPD chose to push for graphics here without considering performance (and it’s not even like it looks better than Odyssey anyway).  They could’ve built the game around the Switch’s Handheld mode and then scale upwards, but they chose not to.  They couldn’t be bothered to optimise the game for Handheld mode, end of.

Yeah, it is certainly uncharacteristic of them. :hmm:

Almost makes me think that it could even be an intentional oversight to later serve as an additional selling point for the "Switch Pro". Guess we'll have to wait and see if other Nintendo developed titles follow suit.

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Review time!

IGN – 7 / 10
GameSpot – 9 / 10
Game Informer – 9.25 / 10
Destructoid – 10 / 10
GamesBeat – 5 / 5
GamesRadar – 4.5 / 5
VG247 – 5 / 5
Gamereactor – 8 / 10
Polygon – “Recommended”
Kotaku – N/A

I couldn't help myself and awarded the game with 5/5. It's still a good game. The concept of Bowser's Fury is fun with how open the world is and how levels work in that world. I ended up playing the most of the main game as well, even though I thought I would skip a part of it. It was just good fun and is still a fun game. It does become a little stale and samey over the course of the game but it's still enjoyable. I haven't completed all bonus levels as I wanted to move on to Immortals but I shall get back to them when I want some more arcade-y game again.

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That IGN review is hilariously bad. And I say that as a fan of IGN generally.

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Seeing reviews of this game coming out is bringing about Vietnam-esque flashbacks for me. 

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Obligatory Digital Foundry tech review:

Those reviews look great! Think I'll be saving picking this one up until I can get the chance to play through it with my brother, but I'm looking forward to it. 

As for IGN...yeah, their history speaks for itself. I'm all up for different reviewers with different opinions and different review scores, but they lost any credibility for me as reviewers when one of their points for scoring Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire down as a 7.8/10 for "too much water". There are many, many genuine reasons to mark that game down, but they're Hoenn remakes, what did they actually expect? Why not complain about the trumpets too while you're at it? 

I just don't think they're writing is generally that good either, to be honest, but obviously that varies from reviewer to reviewer. You only need to look at Dunkey's Spider-Man video for evidence of that (and their reactions to it which, again, speaks for itself).

The most I pay attention to them these days is when they get some exclusive scoop, or get their score plastered on a magazine/game cover. It's unfortunate, but just comes with being a massive company with people moving on a lot of the time to bigger and better things I guess. 

Edited by Julius

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From a 9.6/10 to the same game but running better, with more features and a brand new campaign: 7/10. I get that they're different reviewers but outlets have some responsibility to give a bit of consistency I think.

At least we now know that the cat ears on enemies don't provide enough content.

Edited by Ronnie

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Yeah, that 7/10 was not quite logical to me as well. Yeah, Bowser Fury has a lot of water and the colour palette is a bit boring but the game itself is rather fun, except for a few Shines that make you run all over looking for a few cats.

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57 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

From a 9.6/10 to the same game but running better, with more features and a brand new campaign: 7/10. I get that they're different reviewers but outlets have some responsibility to give a bit of consistency I think.

At least we now know that the cat ears on enemies don't provide enough content.

What was great and unique years ago is perhaps less so now? You can certainly make an argument that a remaster, even a great one, doesn't necessarily need to have the same or better score than the original because you're judging a different thing in a way by virtue of both being in a different time and being something that people will have already played in large. 

I get the notion of thinking outlets should try and "align" reviewers but personally it's about individual authors. It's near impossible unless it's a literal one person job because a team of people are going to have different interests, experiences, passions etc that play in. It's a subjective exercise by nature. 

But at the end of the day they're just reviews. They don't really matter. 

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You have to consider that a review of an older game is going to be rated based on the quality of the port itself and (rightly or wrongly) the price/value of the overall package.

The quality of the game itself is rarely considered to the same extent as its original release, when a re-release is being reviewed.  These reviews reflect the “value” of this re-release in the eyes of the buying public who have already seen this game on Wii U; whether that be a conscious consideration or otherwise.

Edited by Dcubed

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3 hours ago, Dcubed said:

You have to consider that a review of an older game is going to be rated based on the quality of the port itself and (rightly or wrongly) the price/value of the overall package.

The quality of the game itself is rarely considered to the same extent as its original release, when a re-release is being reviewed.  These reviews reflect the “value” of this re-release in the eyes of the buying public who have already seen this game on Wii U; whether that be a conscious consideration or otherwise.

That's not particularly useful when so many people will have never played the game in the first place. For someone like that, the amount of fun had isn't going to be substantially different in 2021 vs 2013, so the review should reflect that or at least make it clear that the write-up is based on the port, not the gameplay itself.

But regardless, the IGN review didn't really talk much about how the game holds up in 2021, it was more criticisms of the game itself, like an endgame unlockable character being better than the 4 starters (well duh), or cat ears on enemies not being substantial (wtf). Anyway, it's one man's critique, and he's entitled to it.

Edited by Ronnie

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31 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

That's not particularly useful when so many people will have never played the game in the first place. For someone like that, the amount of fun had isn't going to be substantially different in 2021 vs 2013, so the review should reflect that or at least make it clear that the write-up is based on the port, not the gameplay itself.

But regardless, the IGN review didn't really talk much about how the game holds up in 2021, it was more criticisms of the game itself, like an endgame unlockable character being better than the 4 starters (well duh), or cat ears on enemies not being substantial (wtf). Anyway, it's one man's critique, and he's entitled to it.

I’m making a point about unconscious bias here, not about an overt observation of the quality of a game’s port.

The point is that people’s perceptions of a game will inevitably be coloured by 1: The fact that this is a re-release (inevitably reducing its “value”, because older games are not generally respected in the same way as “new and shiny” releases); and 2: The price of a given re-release (which ties directly into its perceived value).

Generally speaking, it’s pointless looking at reviews of re-released games from the major games media outlets because they will inevitably not look at an older game fairly.  Their perceptions will automatically be coloured by the fact that it is a re-release.  This is why almost every single review for an “old” game from the major media outlets always scores the game lower than it did originally, regardless of how good the game actually is; because the perceived value, at retail price, has now lowered.

The only way you’re going to see a fair review is by looking back at the original review scores a game received back when it was first released (and that isn’t exactly perfect either; given the influence of marketing hype, publisher influence, audience pressure and the zeitgeist at the time of its original release - see Metroid Prime Federation Force for perhaps the best example of the lattermost phenomenon).

Reviews are often more of a reflection of the current zeitgeist than any real reflection of a game’s qualities.

Edited by Dcubed
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It's here! Can't wait to get started with it. If anyone wants to test the online multiplayer this weekend let me know, I'm definitely up for it.

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1 hour ago, Vileplume2000 said:

It's here! Can't wait to get started with it. If anyone wants to test the online multiplayer this weekend let me know, I'm definitely up for it.

No post for me, sadly :hmm:

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Oh dear GOD is Buckenberry FAST in this version!!

He could give Sonic a run for his money now! :o 
 

So glad to finally have a good (native!) 3D Mario game on Switch at last! Looking forward to trying out Bowser’s Fury later on, but I think another play through of SM3DW is in order first! What a game! :D 

Edited by Dcubed
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Just tried out online play with a buddy of mine... it was surprisingly playable! There was a bit of lag, sure, but it’s a damn sight better than Mario Maker 2!

I can definitely say that (at least when connecting two Switches online), that the online play is a surprisingly good experience! Very pleased! :D 

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Just blasted through the first world. 

What a game this is - by far the best aesthetic Nintendo has come up with for a Mario game. OST is God-tier. Surprised by just how fast it feels now, almost too fast even!

Grinning from ear-to-ear. I'll also give Bowser's Fury a go later, but really enjoying going through 3DW again.  

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16 minutes ago, BowserBasher said:

Love the Bowser plush. 

You bashed it, yet?

Alright...I'm leaving :p

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Just finished World 1 as well and as a first timer I have to say, loving it! Well, besides maybe the obligatory bad to control racing style level but I guess every 3D Mario needs these (go home Plessie!).

It has the same charm 3D Land had. I already knew the cat power up from Mario Maker but it's great to use it in full 3D.

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Loving the game all over again. Just done World 3. 

Also had a short play of Bowser’s Fury and I’m really liking it. Couple of times I’ve just started wondering around aimlessly but it seems to take you the right way. Overall I’m liking it need to put some more time into it. 
 

If peop,e are up to some multiplayer let me know. I wanna try it out too. Could be hilarious. 

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