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COVID-19 (The artist formally known as Coronavirus)

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4 minutes ago, Goafer said:

Can't believe I have to say it, but caring about others is the right thing to do?

And to be clear, it's the people who CAN'T have the vaccine that need protecting, not the people that WON'T. The more people get vaccinated, the more those people are protected by proxy.

Yes, I'm sure this very small percentage of the population simply can't take sensible measures to protect themselves, so we must force people to chip in against their will. 87% in the UK already had the first dose (well on track to beyond herd immunity), but it's not enough, we must protect the tiny percentages!! What other vaccines have they skipped if they can't be vaccinated? How are they still alive? They could get mumps, or measles or TB at any moment... I joke but this is a supremely weak argument. You cannot protect everyone from everything. Universal safety is not universal freedom. 

FWIW, if I was in this category of people, I would not need people to be vaccinated to "protect" me. I have my own mind and can analyse and assess various risks of my own accord, shockingly, just like everyone else. Look after yourself and your own health, as is your right and prerogative, and let everyone else get on with doing the same. My health, and anybody else's for that matter, is not your concern. I trust people, all people, to do what's best for them. Why can't you do the same? 

Why are you so adamant that other people need to be controlled in some way? Why is it the right thing to do? Is banning people who simply want to exercise their freedoms and rights from doing so the right thing to do? Why do you know better? Why do you need to be the voice for people who can't be vaccinated? "Trust the science"? What's with this militant Stalinist thinking? He also did the right thing and look how that ended up. 

Stop the lazy virtue signalling. 

"Two weeks to flatten the curve"
"We need shield the vulnerable"
"It's for your own good"
"We'll be free when we have vaccines"
"We just need to vaccinate the elderly and vulnerable"
"We just need to vaccinate everyone over 12"
"We have no plans to introduce vaccine passports"

- Look how far we have come. This is where "caring about people" rather than trusting them has got us, it always does. And if your response to that is "well, yeah, people can't be trusted" then you are already gone. 

Total government control vs. Personal responsibility and common sense. Illness and death outcome of Corona: largely the same, economic impact and suffering: vastly, vastly different. I though you "cared about people"? 


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1 minute ago, Cube said:

Only hypocrisy to people who don't understand basic logic, who are too terrified to do any research in case they find out they may be wrong about something.

Single mums on Facebook aren't valid sources, btw.

 

Out of interest: do you grow all of your own food? 

You'll have to define "basic logic". I read through the ONS statistics every time they are released from the UK and the stats from here. The vaccine clearly helps in preventing serious illness and death in certain age groups. That much is obvious to anyone. I don't see where I claimed anything different. Out of 2400+ deaths here, 4 have been under 40. Still don't see a reason why I personally need a vaccine. 

I don't have any social media accounts. Why are the single? What's wrong with being a single mum? Why do you want to demonise this demographic?

I grow my own vegetables, yes. 

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Just now, Nicktendo said:

Why do you want to demonise this demographic?

You tell me. I said they aren't valid sources of scientific research (unless of course, they are a scientist doing relevant research). Lots of accounts claiming to be single mums are common types of accounts sharing this information, most likely fake.

As you brought "demonising" into it, you must have a big dislike of that group of people (this is a stupid thing for me to claim, just using the same kind of logic as your for twisting other people's words to change their meaning). 

 

There's a massive difference between abortion and vaccines. Vaccines slow down the spread of the pandemic, preventing vulnerable people from dying (including those who are vaccinated, as it's not 100% affective).Anti-abortion laws are simply created for sexist or religious reasons. 

A lot of the "left" are against actual laws regarding vaccines, but we should still encourage people to have them. 

 

 

One thing I find odd is that there's load of anger regarding vaccines and face masks, but while that happened the government has put extremely vague laws on protesting that could lead to 10 years of prison if it is deemed an "inconvenience". That's where people's focus should be. 

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20 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Why do you know better?

I don't. Which is why I turn to those who do, the scientists. They say getting the vaccine is what will save lives so I believe them. They've done far more research than any of us, so they are THE people to believe. 

If you genuinely think you, or anyone else, know more than the scientists who have dedicated the last few years to researching this pandemic, then that is a level of arrogance that is impossible to argue against, so I'll just leave you to your "me and mine" attitude and continue to do what I believe is right.

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1 minute ago, Goafer said:

I don't. Which is why I turn to those who do, the promoted preachers. They say getting the vaccine is what will save lives so I believe them. They've done far more trusted preaching than any of us, so they are THE people to believe. 

If you genuinely think you, or anyone else, know more than the preachers who have dedicated the last few years to profiting off this pandemic, then that is a level of arrogance that is impossible to argue against, so I'll just leave you to your "me and mine" attitude and continue to do what I believe is right.

There are a lot of scientists who would disagree with that position, not to mention the horrifying VAERS data from the US, where mRNA is used exclusively, but they are the wrong kind of scientist and data of course.

Please read or listen to Dr. Robert Malone - creator of the mRNA vaccine as a starter and go from there. 

If not, try to enjoy life blindly following orders and protecting people, and don't forget to take your tax-payer-funded Winter booster shot. 
 

 

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13 minutes ago, Cube said:

You tell me. I said they aren't valid sources of scientific research (unless of course, they are a scientist doing relevant research). Lots of accounts claiming to be single mums are common types of accounts sharing this information, most likely fake.

As you brought "demonising" into it, you must have a big dislike of that group of people (this is a stupid thing for me to claim, just using the same kind of logic as your for twisting other people's words to change their meaning). 

 

There's a massive difference between abortion and vaccines. Vaccines slow down the spread of the pandemic, preventing vulnerable people from dying (including those who are vaccinated, as it's not 100% affective).Anti-abortion laws are simply created for sexist or religious reasons. 

A lot of the "left" are against actual laws regarding vaccines, but we should still encourage people to have them. 

 

 

One thing I find odd is that there's load of anger regarding vaccines and face masks, but while that happened the government has put extremely vague laws on protesting that could lead to 10 years of prison if it is deemed an "inconvenience". That's where people's focus should be. 

This right here is what I mean though. Whilst I understand abortions and vaccines are different procedures, what you CHOOSE to do with YOUR OWN BODY should entirely be YOUR CHOICE and yours alone.

Also, I'm very mad about the right to protest too because it's taking away everyone's right to voice their opinion but isn't it awfully strange that that had come in and then, after saying passports wouldn't happen, suddenly from September we can't go places unless we have one.

Honestly I can't even believe that there are people who do not understand just how wrong this is. I even know vaccinated people who are just as outraged as I am about this. Also, just for the record, I'm seen as one of these vulnerable people but I still disagree with the emotional blackmail (let's call it as it is) of getting a vaccine to keep me alive. At the end of the day, you do you. Are you going to walk past everyone in the street and ask if they've had theirs? No you wouldn't. Does it necessarily make a difference in my life if you have or haven't? No it wouldn't because I'm still going to live the way I want to anyway. 

Just to reiterate, although I disagree with getting the vaccine until there's further tests and data regarding future health implications (and for the record, I'm like this with a lot of medicine anyway as I tend to get side effects), I'm not against the vaccine. I'm against the government pressuring you to get it through not allowing your freedom to do what you want to. 

As I mentioned earlier, I love going to the cinemas but it's MY CHOICE not to go because I don't feel safe enough and everyone who's getting the vaccine for other people's benefit won't change matters for me. I totally realise that I can catch it and possibly become worse but that's my burden, not yours. It sucks but I crack on with it. Honestly anybody having the jabs will be treated just the same as someone who hasn't had it. I keep a respectable distance and that's that. If I want to wear a mask, I'll do so if I have to be in close but even then, it's hard for me to wear them for long before my breathing becomes affected. 

I just honestly do not buy that everyone is getting the vaccine for unselfish reasons though. I don't buy that the majority has booked theirs and said "I'm not doing this for me, I'm doing this for the random stranger I might meet in a bus stop. I'm doing this for a better society! ". Let's not lie here, the majority are not really doing it for a better society but for your own health and that is okay to be selfish because I don't honestly blame you. That is entirely your choice. If you were trying to gain a better society, there's a fuck ton more that needs doing. 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Beast said:

This right here is what I mean though. Whilst I understand abortions and vaccines are different procedures, what you CHOOSE to do with YOUR OWN BODY should entirely be YOUR CHOICE and yours alone.

Also, I'm very mad about the right to protest too because it's taking away everyone's right to voice their opinion but isn't it awfully strange that that had come in and then, after saying passports wouldn't happen, suddenly from September we can't go places unless we have one.

Honestly I can't even believe that there are people who do not understand just how wrong this is. I even know vaccinated people who are just as outraged as I am about this. Also, just for the record, I'm seen as one of these vulnerable people but I still disagree with the emotional blackmail (let's call it as it is) of getting a vaccine to keep me alive. At the end of the day, you do you. Are you going to walk past everyone in the street and ask if they've had theirs? No you wouldn't. Does it necessarily make a difference in my life if you have or haven't? No it wouldn't because I'm still going to live the way I want to anyway. 

Just to reiterate, although I disagree with getting the vaccine until there's further tests and data regarding future health implications (and for the record, I'm like this with a lot of medicine anyway as I tend to get side effects), I'm not against the vaccine. I'm against the government pressuring you to get it through not allowing your freedom to do what you want to. 

As I mentioned earlier, I love going to the cinemas but it's MY CHOICE not to go because I don't feel safe enough and everyone who's getting the vaccine for other people's benefit won't change matters for me. I totally realise that I can catch it and possibly become worse but that's my burden, not yours. It sucks but I crack on with it. Honestly anybody having the jabs will be treated just the same as someone who hasn't had it. I keep a respectable distance and that's that. If I want to wear a mask, I'll do so if I have to be in close but even then, it's hard for me to wear them for long before my breathing becomes affected. 

I just honestly do not buy that everyone is getting the vaccine for unselfish reasons though. I don't buy that the majority has booked theirs and said "I'm not doing this for me, I'm doing this for the random stranger I might meet in a bus stop. I'm doing this for a better society! ". Let's not lie here, the majority are not really doing it for a better society but for your own health and that is okay to be selfish because I don't honestly blame you. That is entirely your choice. If you were trying to gain a better society, there's a fuck ton more that needs doing. 

Just coming to the realisation that one of the arguments above was "I don't want or have time to think and do my own research so the scientists can do it for me". Parallels with religious belief are striking. 

Fucking amazing how it's gotten so bad. Critical-thinking skills all but gone and people willingly giving up their rights so they can get back to consuming products as quickly as possible.

Keep fighting for your own rights and freedoms, @Beast, look after your own health, nobody should be forced to do anything against their will to carry on being a free person and enjoy their life in the same way they did before. A choice between a vaccine and ostracization is no choice at all. 

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Edited by Nicktendo
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Posting from my phone so I'll keep it brief; can we dial down any personal or judgemental criticisms, comments and name-calling please. You have a right to believe what you want and an open debate is fine but try and respect others rights to have differing beliefs. This whole thing has been difficult for all of us and some of us have suffered tremendous loss so it is easy to take a personal stake in matters but that does not and should not result in mudslinging. If needs be I will close this thread to hopefully let cool heads prevail. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Nicktendo said:

Keep fighting for your own rights and freedoms, @Beast, look after your own health, nobody should be forced to do anything against their will to carry on being a free person and enjoy their life in the same way they did before. A choice between a vaccine and ostracization is no choice at all.

I definitely will! 100% agree with this. For me personally, I would much rather have the future health implications known before I even take it. It seems to me that there's loads of research being done, which is great, but I would want certainty not only in the research but in myself as well. I don't want to rush in to getting something to get back to normal, which is what many people have done (and that is fine because it is their choice).

If it did fall to it, I'd rather be ostracized before taking something against my will and something I'm unsure of and I'm more than prepared for it. It's already happened to me anyway with people becoming heated for not having it yet...that's fine, I can take it because at least I still have my rights to choose what I do with my health and my body. I'd much rather be 100% safe in the knowledge that it would not affect my future. It's been crazy with my mental health overthinking absolutely everything and I know if I had the jab and went in with both feet to find out later that there would be something in the future, it would drive me insane. 

The way I see it: My body, my choice. Your body, your choice. Voluntary consent without the use of pressure of any kind no matter how small is important in any aspect of life, especially when it affects one's physical and mental health. 

Edited by Beast
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7 hours ago, Nicktendo said:

If you have it - you are protected. However, if you are under 40 with no comorbidities, you should really have no reason whatsoever to take this vaccine. 

It's painful to read false assertions like this yet not unexpected from someone who said there is no institutional racism in the UK...

Your post reads like that of a conspiracy theorist. There are scientists far, far smarter than you that have recommended these age groups be vaccinated based on many reasons, and not just the death count. But I'm sure you know better, right?

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We need vaccines to minimise the viruses mutations. Not many people here remember the awful viruses or diseases prior the discovery of vaccines and it TOOK years to eradicate them out of the humanity. 

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Posted (edited)

Feel obligated to respond to some of these posts, as I feel a bit responsible for sparking the debate. I think my reactions to some posts and not to others probably makes it pretty clear what my thoughts on this are, but it beats posting this gif for the umpteenth time:

tenor.gif

...who am I kidding? It's a classic. And we were probably all thinking of posting it :p

On 24/07/2021 at 9:02 PM, Beast said:

I think in busy places such as trains and buses is completely understandable as it's closed spaces but even so, it's their choice and as long as they don't get in my personal space, they can do what they like, in my opinion. As I've said before, keep a respectable distance and have good hygiene. As I've also said before, I see nobody even washing their hands in and out and even going around today in shopping centres, the bottles aren't being filled up. It's funny though because as I enter a shop, I put on sanitiser and I always see someone behind me, who blatantly wasn't going to sanitise their hands, sanitise them because they see me do it. 

I think the problem is that people don't need to be within your personal space (let's use the 2 metres of social distancing here for reference) when in an enclosed space for you to come into contact with the virus...or any other kind of germs. Strictly talking just about the air in an enclosed space, you've got things to account for like molecular diffusion, Brownian motion, and beyond that a whole host of other systems at play which means, without much effort, the air inside of a train carriage could easily circulate germs from one end of the carriage to the other. 

I do agree with you that you should keep your wits about you, try to keep to yourself, watch your own hygiene, maybe even try to find another spot if you feel it's getting a little too crowded, etc., which I try to adhere to as well, rubbing my hands down with hand sanitiser getting on the train, before I get off, when I next arrive at a location where I'll be spending some time, before and after eating, sitting down in the cinema, and so on. 

I just think it's a bit concerning that a very, very noticeable number of people on the train didn't even have a mask on them as far as I could tell, and they certainly weren't wearing them. 

On 24/07/2021 at 9:02 PM, Beast said:

I do disagree with the passports and I think it's very wrong that the government are trying to do this. It is your body and it should be your choice. I'm quite intrigued to know how this would work for people who can not get it for personal, medical or religious reasons. How are they even going to police it? I just think be aware, keep a distance as much as you can and just keep your common sense about you. If you feel like you need a mask, have it on you along with hand sanitiser. I keep everything I need in my bag: dettol wipes, dettol spray, mask, hand sanitiser, gloves, etc.

I mean, just going back to the incident I described about the COVID passport protest that I witnessed: the irony was that they were showing EXACTLY that they couldn't be trusted and why we even need to consider putting such things in place. There were a few hundred people I saw protesting, taking up one of the larger pavements I've come across in Birmingham and spilling over into the streets, with barely any of them wearing masks, and huddled so tightly together that they'd make a sardine blush. 

As for the COVID passports themselves, I think it's fine conceptually, and a completely understandable thing to put in place. I think you're viewing it from the "glass half empty" lens if you're seeing it purely as a push for people who aren't vaccinated to go get the vaccine, because, from my perspective, it's more about keeping those who have been vaccinated safe in an environment (such as a nightclub or a football stadium) where just one person potentially spreading the virus in such a densely populated discs could have a wide-reaching impact on a great number of lives around them, as well as the other way around being true also, that it's protecting those that aren't vaccinated from larger crowds by trying to keep them away from them. You need to have a driving license to drive a car just as, for the time being, you'll need to be vaccinated (and potentially have had a recent negative test?) to enter events where the virus could cause some serious trouble: highly and densely populated, enclosed, pretty warm spaces, the perfect breeding ground out in the wild for something like this to spread like wildfire. 

However, the problem with the COVID passports, as @Will alluded to, is that the UK government don't have the systems in place to support such a scheme, and it'll be as half-arsed as much of their other work during this pandemic has been. And, as you rightly mention Beast, what does happen to those who can't get the vaccine due to genuine medical/religious reasons? I have no clue, and I doubt the government do too. Again, I think it comes back to it being a good idea in concept, but with our government? I don't see it being handled well at all. 

23 hours ago, Beast said:

I do wish there were more people like you who would remove their masks for them because in all honesty, it's a pain in the arse for me and I've noticed I become more impatient and frustrated whereas before, I had loads of patience. As I say, keeping a distance and still removing their mask should be okay but there's seems to be extremes on both sides of the mask and unmask debates. 

Yeah I fully get this, when I tried to explain to a waitress yesterday that I'd booked a table at a medium volume it was clear she had no idea what I said, so I lifted my mask away from my face to repeat what I'd said, and if she couldn't hear me then I would have asked if she was okay with me removing my mask so that she could hear me (we were a metre or two apart anyways). It's one where I feel like you have to play it by ear and just be mindful of how many people are around you and their distance from you. 

23 hours ago, Beast said:

As I said, I understand Covid has had a huge impact and whilst I understand they're not the same, the flu can also kill just as much. Why else do you see adverts every year to "catch it, bin it, kill it" and to get flu jabs for? It can be bad news for the elderly and people with severe asthma and immune system difficulties if they did catch it but in my experience, people refuse to get it because "they don't want to be ill for a couple of days". With that in mind, considering it would be bad for those people, isn't that not helping build a better society? A person is a person after all. 

I mean the fact that they aren't the same is a huge part of it, though. For the COVID vaccines they used the main strand which kicked this all off as the reference, and while we've seen variants since, it's a process which can be repeated with the new variants, and heck I think some of the vaccines used elsewhere already prove somewhat effective against the new variants. That's entirely different to the flu vaccine, where the entire basis of the vaccine is an educated hunch at what will be the most popular mutation that year, and in recent years they've been pretty far off the mark. 

It's like trying to put a brand new bike together with the same model already put together next to you and a set of instructions to go with it vs closing your eyes and building a bike based on what you imagine a bike will look like this year based on your memories of last year's model. It's a very, very rough way to do things, which again has missed the mark as of late. 

23 hours ago, Beast said:

If it's this easy to exclude others from society for not injecting something into their bodies that they're unsure of, why isn't it this easy to do the same with paedophiles, rapists and very violent people? We talk about a safer society but wouldn't that be safer especially if they are repeat offenders? 

I mean at this point why not just bring the electric chair back, or hand these people a noose and a chair to jump down from as they walk out of prison? If it would make it that much safer and the possibility of rehabilitation isn't an option - thankfully it is - then what purpose is there to let them walk out? 

Like I mentioned before, I think it's the lens you're viewing it from, and by all means you have a right to your own opinion on this, but there's an insanely massive difference for me between being ostracised due to raping someone and being left out by omission through your (not your as in you, Beast, but a general your) own actions based on your own choices. Again as I mentioned before, think it gets murky when it comes to people who due to medical reasons in particular can't get vaccinated, but other than religious beliefs and some other fringe cases -- I'm talking about healthy people who don't fall in these categories -- it's simply called consequence. You (again, a general you, I'm not singling you out) can't have your cake and eat it too. 

23 hours ago, Beast said:

Here's the thing for me: whilst you're not harming people, you're still effectively harming the homeless and your society.

As someone who tries their best to help people when I can see that they might need it, I think this is a dangerous mindset to walk around with, just for the mental toll it would take, because you're only a hop and a jump away from being at fault for everything wrong with society. When it comes to helping others that you are in no way responsible for, I think only you can hold yourself accountable for your decisions, but I think for the average person - like myself - we'll find ourselves limited in what we can do by our time, finances, or something else.

I was in a rush to get to work and so didn't get the chance to help that homeless guy? Welp, I've caused him harm. I don't know, to me, that seems like a spiral I'd rather not go down. 

For me, it always comes back to being the change you want to see happen. I want more people to help the homeless, and so when I get the chance to, I'll do what I can to help them. It's a cold day -- do they want a hot chocolate or a coffee? They're hungry -- do they want to come with me to get some food?

But as a 22 year old in his first full-time job, there's a limit on what I can reasonably offer to help with, and so long as I try to help them, I think that's okay. I'll shorten my life, and end up getting the chance to help less people in the process, if I carry the world's problems on my shoulders. 

23 hours ago, Beast said:

People can say all they like that they get it for strangers but let's be real, the majority are not really doing it for society but for their own health and potentially their friends and family too.

I mean, even if I did selfishly want to protect myself, my friends, and my family...I think that's a completely fair line of reasoning, and that would only be the start. It would take an ounce of empathy and awareness for those around you to then start thinking about how others might be impacted if you didn't get the vaccine. 

Why exactly can't it be both me wanting to take care of myself, those I know, and those I don't? Why is it a black or white "it's us or them"? 

21 hours ago, Nicktendo said:

It seems to me that many of you are motivated by nothing but fear.

Memento mori

Fear has driven men and women to some of humanity's greatest discoveries, and unfortunately others to committing some of its most heinous acts, but fear - and fear of death in particular - is one of the great equalisers. 

I think it's perfectly normal to feel and be motivated by fear. So long as you don't let it consume your thinking, being motivated by fear can be a great asset. I don't think there's anything remotely wrong with getting vaccinated against a deadly virus out of fear, so long as you still took the choice to be vaccinated. 

21 hours ago, Nicktendo said:

If you've "done your part" and got the vaccine, what is there left to fear? Why are you worried about whether other people might die? Surely if they have the vaccine too, they'll be fine?

The risk of contracting COVID, the long-term impacts of which we probably won't fully understand for years to come? Just because immunisation puts the odds further in your favour for survival, the risk of contracting COVID is still very real. Plus, I'm still waiting on my second vaccination. 

Why exactly wouldn't I be worried about other people dying, especially after myself and others have lost loved ones to COVID? Like I mentioned above, it takes an ounce of empathy and awareness for others -- let's be honest, I could just say respect -- to appreciate the impact something like this could have on the lives of other people. 

And you know that's not how vaccines work so that third one is a bit of a silly rhetorical. 

21 hours ago, Nicktendo said:

Here, inject shit this to stop the <0.002% chance you'll die from Corona.

I mean, forget dying, immunisation lowers the odds of you contracting an illness too, so that's a pretty big plus, surely? 

19 hours ago, Beast said:

Whilst I understand abortions and vaccines are different procedures, what you CHOOSE to do with YOUR OWN BODY should entirely be YOUR CHOICE and yours alone.

See, there are two different things here. 

Firstly: I fully respect your decision to not take the vaccine until you know more about the potential side effects, and given what you mentioned about you having side effects to similar things before, I think you're justified in being wary and waiting for more information, however long it might take. From the rest of your posts I think it's clear that even without taking the vaccine, you're aware of the situation, do your utmost to be hygienic, and are trying your damnedest without the vaccine. Unfortunately, we can't say that's been the case for everyone who hasn't had the vaccine (and to be clear this isn't me targeting anyone else in the thread, it's the impression that I get from when you look around and on social media). 

The other part is that someone having an abortion doesn't have a direct physical impact on the physical well-being of those around you. Someone choosing to go the abortion route, which I agree is wholeheartedly that person's decision because even if it is a bit of an ethical conundrum - at what point are you considered alive? - if they can't give that child the life that every child deserves - one with stability and something beyond simply existing, being there to offer direction as a parent should - is an entirely different premise, at least from my perspective. It's a totally different scenario if you having an abortion because there's something up with the tap water helps keep other pregnant women and their children safe. 

Just because there's a choice involved I don't think the two issues are remotely equatable beyond there being a personal choice for you to make, which I will respect. It's simply not my choice to make. Ask me my opinion on abortions and vaccines and I'll offer it in as well meaning a way as I can, even if our opinions differ, but otherwise it's really none of my business what you do with your body. I agree with that: it is your decision at the end of the day. 

That being said, choices come with consequences. I had to get some vaccines before going to the Philippines a few years ago, because of some of the bugs over there that my Western body just wouldn't be built for dealing with could have caused some serious harm, and doing so gave me peace of mind on my trip. The potential consequence of me getting ill from the vaccine while still over here far outweighed the perceived consequences of getting seriously ill while stuck in a struggling country with poor access to quality medical care. 

In the case of the COVID vaccine and the passports, one consequence of not getting vaccinated is not being allowed to mingle with people who have in certain scenarios. That will be there to protect both sides. Again, I'm not saying it's going to be pulled off well, but in concept I think it's the best thing to do. 

14 hours ago, Beast said:

Voluntary consent without the use of pressure of any kind no matter how small is important in any aspect of life, especially when it affects one's physical and mental health. 

Given the scale and severity of the pandemic, I just think it's unrealistic to not have any pressure around an issue like this. The same goes for voluntary consent for any number of things: real life just isn't simple enough to take things as they are in a closed bubble, there are almost always other factors at play. 

Honestly, if I didn't take the vaccine, I wouldn't feel comfortable going out to any of these events (nightclubs, football matches, concerts) anyways, so I wouldn't feel the pressure of everything going on regarding the COVID passport. Heck, even now that I've had my first vaccine, I'm not in a rush to put myself at risk like that. 

Edited by Julius
Changed Animal to Beast. That took way too long to notice, my bad!
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6 hours ago, Julius said:

Feel obligated to respond to some of these posts, as I feel a bit responsible for sparking the debate. I think my reactions to some posts and not to others probably makes it pretty clear what my thoughts on this are, but it beats posting this gif for the umpteenth time:

tenor.gif

...who am I kidding? It's a classic. And we were probably all thinking of posting it :p

Not going to lie, I do like this gif and it's one of my favourite episodes too! :grin: However, please don't blame yourself for "sparking a debate" as I think it was kind of needed. My problem was that (and this is not me having digs at anybody, I promise) I felt that if you disagreed with the majority here, you were seen as stupid or lazy or awkward when that simply isn't the case. Not a dig but that was just a vibe I had got. If I'm honest, it was a long time coming. I was always toying with the idea of speaking up and although I have a couple of times, I felt like, as I have been a member here for years, this was a safe space to respectfully put my view across so people could see both sides of the "argument" with all respect intact. As I have always said: everyone has a right to an opinion as long as it's respectful and for me, although I may disagree, I will always respect an opinion without feeling the need to lash out. Also, I have read this post before typing this and I must say this is how I would hope everyone would react to someone who disagrees and it is actually why I whipped open my laptop especially to type this so kudos to you! :)

6 hours ago, Julius said:

I think the problem is that people don't need to be within your personal space (let's use the 2 metres of social distancing here for reference) when in an enclosed space for you to come into contact with the virus...or any other kind of germs. Strictly talking just about the air in an enclosed space, you've got things to account for like molecular diffusion, Brownian motion, and beyond that a whole host of other systems at play which means, without much effort, the air inside of a train carriage could easily circulate germs from one end of the carriage to the other. 

I understand this completely. Although I do agree that they should be worn on closed spaces such as public transport (something in which I would much rather avoid as much as possible but I also understand that that would be impossible for others), wouldn't it be safe anyway if you alone wore your mask? You chose to protect yourself but if others don't want to by not wearing a mask, that's up to them. The other issue for me is the fashion masks. Although I'm sure it's better than nothing, surely getting those thicker masks would help more? I just think there's risk everywhere you go and the best you can do is avoid situations as much as possible. As I keep mentioning, I'm genuinely DYING to go to the cinemas as it's more or less the only place I feel truly relaxed but I wouldn't go because the thought of being in a room for over 2 hours with a load of people breathing the same air as me freaks me out a little. I mean, I even had my qualms about the gym but honestly, my gym is great for cleanliness and respectable distances so I've been okay with that so maybe there's hope for me yet...sorry, I just drifted away there...but that's my take on it. Everything about the bus or train freaks me out but if you (as in yourself) protect yourself all you can inside it, surely that is okay?

6 hours ago, Julius said:

I do agree with you that you should keep your wits about you, try to keep to yourself, watch your own hygiene, maybe even try to find another spot if you feel it's getting a little too crowded, etc., which I try to adhere to as well, rubbing my hands down with hand sanitiser getting on the train, before I get off, when I next arrive at a location where I'll be spending some time, before and after eating, sitting down in the cinema, and so on. 

I just think it's a bit concerning that a very, very noticeable number of people on the train didn't even have a mask on them as far as I could tell, and they certainly weren't wearing them.

I get that, actually. Although I'm all for choice when it comes to most things, I think it's sensible to actually wear something on a bus, train or in a hospital or surgery. The problem for me is that people got by for the longest time without a mask before it was law, even though I was wearing one for hours at a time (which turned out was not healthy for me at all). Honestly, another thing as well, I don't know about where you are but where I am, a lot of people never really wear them properly anyway. For instance, they cover their mouth but not their nose. Another thing is the face shields. I was asked to wear one but when I did it, I didn't see the point at all in them because, as you've said, if it's in the air then you can still breathe it in anyway so what was the point? I've gotten by without anything and *touch wood* I've never had it. That's not me saying that because I'm fine, it's totally safe and it's proven, but I am saying that a bit of self-awareness, hygiene and caution can go a long way. 

6 hours ago, Julius said:

I mean, just going back to the incident I described about the COVID passport protest that I witnessed: the irony was that they were showing EXACTLY that they couldn't be trusted and why we even need to consider putting such things in place. There were a few hundred people I saw protesting, taking up one of the larger pavements I've come across in Birmingham and spilling over into the streets, with barely any of them wearing masks, and huddled so tightly together that they'd make a sardine blush. 

Okay but we have seen sporting events recently with them doing the exact same thing. We have seen Black Lives Matter protests doing the exact same thing. We have seen Anti-Lockdown protests doing the exact same thing. We have seen Anti-Paedophile protests doing the exact same thing. We have seen Women's Rights protests doing the exact same thing. I mean, honestly, when it comes to that, this isn't exactly anything new. You're always going to have differing viewpoints where people think masks do/don't work. I do agree that we all need to fight for the right to a choice and a voice though. This right here is a healthy way of doing this. I'm hearing your side and you're hearing mine. You respectfully disagree with me on some things and vice versa. Some people want to protest this and I understand it. It's a way for us to be heard and it's slowly being taken away. People notice it though because it's about the passports coming through and not because it's about race, gender, etc. I never heard many comments from anybody anywhere about wearing masks and distancing and when they did, they were shot down with "some things are more important" and the like. This is the same. For me, I believe this is important because we already live in a divided society, which is now becoming further divided with the vaccinated and unvaccinated and I hate it. 

6 hours ago, Julius said:

As for the COVID passports themselves, I think it's fine conceptually, and a completely understandable thing to put in place. I think you're viewing it from the "glass half empty" lens if you're seeing it purely as a push for people who aren't vaccinated to go get the vaccine, because, from my perspective, it's more about keeping those who have been vaccinated safe in an environment (such as a nightclub or a football stadium) where just one person potentially spreading the virus in such a densely populated discs could have a wide-reaching impact on a great number of lives around them. You need to have a driving license to drive a car just as, for the time being, you'll need to be vaccinated (and potentially have had a recent negative test?) to enter events where the virus could cause some serious trouble: highly and densely populated, enclosed, pretty warm spaces, the perfect breeding ground out in the wild for something like this to spread like wildfire.

I do think everyone needs to view it as a "glass half empty" situation though because effectively, this is a scary situation to be in. It's like, if they can do this, what else would they be able to do against your will? I don't want to take something I'm unsure of for the sake of "getting back to normal". It's a scary position to put people in, especially with those who may have issues with taking medicine and then putting a time limit on top of that.

Okay, here's what I'm saying: If you're vaccinated, you shouldn't have anything to worry about, right? Because your vaccine will protect you against Covid more than it would against me. So with that in mind, if you were in a nightclub and God forbid you did have Covid and that entire club was exposed and a lot of them had vaccines, surely it's more of a risk for the unvaccinated? Because the vaccinated shouldn't feel the effects as much and isn't life-threatening and it's simply a case of having a bad cold (from what I was told)? So with that in mind, although it isn't life-threatening to you, surely it is more so to me (through my choice)? So using your club scenario, my life is way more at risk than yours is as you would have "a cold" and I would potentially die, which wouldn't be your fault obviously.

6 hours ago, Julius said:

However, the problem with the COVID passports, as @Will alluded to, is that the UK government don't have the systems in place to support such a scheme, and it'll be as half-arsed as much of their other work during this pandemic has been. And, as you rightly mention Animal, what does happen to those who can't get the vaccine due to genuine medical/religious reasons? I have no clue, and I doubt the government do too. Again, I think it comes back to it being a good idea in concept, but with our government? I don't see it being handled well at all.

Exactly my point, honestly. This government will 100% abuse it. There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that this would happen. Look at everything that has happened for the past two years and it'll tell you exactly how this will be handled. I just know this is a bad idea all around. As I have previously mentioned and I will do so for effect, I'm not anti- or pro-vaxx but I am all for making your own choices when it comes to your own body, life and health. If you feel it is safe to take it or not take it, do so or do not as long as it is your choice and you have looked at everything.

6 hours ago, Julius said:

Yeah I fully get this, when I tried to explain to a waitress yesterday that I'd booked a table at a medium volume it was clear she had no idea what I said, so I lifted my mask away from my face to repeat what I'd said, and if she couldn't hear me then I would have asked if she was okay with me removing my mask so that she could hear me (we were a metre or two apart anyways). It's one where I feel like you have to play it by ear and just be mindful of how many people are around you and their distance from you.

Unfortunately, not a lot of people are like you and this is through my experience entirely. I used to wear a lanyard saying "please remove your mask so I can understand you better" as I can pretty much lip-read. If there's no background noise, I can pretty much hear but if there is and there's people talking and music playing, I struggle to understand. I flash them the card and even tell them I need to lip-read and they either refuse to do so or move the mask down to their mouth. In the end, I just give up and don't bother anymore because nobody even took notice of it. I even got myself the sunflower lanyard, which is recognisable as Hidden Disabilities, and they still don't. I ask them twice and if they can't do one simple thing for me, what's the point in trying to converse? As I have said previously, my heart genuinely goes out to those who rely entirely on lip-reading because they must feel cut out from society. I used to be told I have the patience of a Saint but honestly, recently, my patience wears thin. Not to the point I get angry but to the point I become fed up and just say "It's okay, don't worry about it" and walk off until I find someone who doesn't wear a mask who could help me.

6 hours ago, Julius said:

I mean the fact that they aren't the same is a huge part of it, though. For the COVID vaccines they used the main strand which kicked this all off as the reference, and while we've seen variants since, it's a process which can be repeated with the new variants, and heck I think some of the vaccines used elsewhere already prove somewhat effective against the new variants. That's entirely different to the flu vaccine, where the entire basis of the vaccine is an educated hunch at what will be the most popular mutation that year, and in recent years they've been pretty far off the mark. 

It's like trying to put a brand new bike together with the same model already put together next to you and a set of instructions to go with it vs closing your eyes and building a bike based on what you imagine a bike will look like this year based on your memories of last year's model. It's a very, very rough way to do things, which again has missed the mark as of late. 

But there will always be different variants. Heck, in September, if they bring this in (which I hope they don't), there might be a new variant that will prove ineffective against the vaccines. Germs mutate and grow stronger and resistant. I don't want to put stuff in my body I'm sceptical of right now. Honestly, even with the flu vaccinations, I have been ill from the effects of having them, which is partially why I do not want this right now. It had taken me years to even have that because I was a bit apprehensive but I did it in the end because I knew I'd need to but that was years. This is months compared. I've just been extremely unsure of this, let's face it, new vaccine and although I have people telling me "you'll be fine", they're not the ones who would have to live with the unknown future effects afterwards or the side effects of it after getting it- it would be me. With my survival rate also being very, very high (granted lower than others due to my "vulnerability"), I'd still rather take that chance for now. If it was below 60% or something, I'd probably highly think of getting it and even then, I'd be the same now.

6 hours ago, Julius said:

I mean at this point why not just bring the electric chair back, or hand these people a noose and a chair to jump down from as they walk out of prison? If it would make it that much safer and the possibility of rehabilitation isn't an option - thankfully it is - then what purpose is there to let them walk out? 

Like I mentioned before, I think it's the lens you're viewing it from, and by all means you have a right to your own opinion on this, but there's an insanely massive difference for me between being ostracised due to raping someone and being left out by omission through your (not your as in you, Animal, but a general your) own actions based on your own choices. Again as I mentioned before, think it gets murky when it comes to people who due to medical reasons in particular can't get vaccinated, but other than religious beliefs and some other fringe cases -- I'm talking about healthy people who don't fall in these categories -- it's simply called consequence. You (again, a general you, I'm not singling you out) can't have your cake and eat it too. 

But this is what I was previously saying, if they were repeat offenders who had got released and struck again, if they were double jabbed, they would essentially get more freedom than I do? Isn't that a little warped? I'm not saying this is always 100% the case but I'm saying that if you have extremely violent thugs out in the streets who randomly attack people for fun (which has happened recently in an Asda supermarket), if they were double jabbed, they would get more freedom than me, an innocent law-abiding person who just refuses to inject something in his body due to uncertainty? Isn't that a little messed up?

I understand what you mean about consequence but who are the government to decide what you put inside your body? The government are the ones who have made things worse in my eyes with their confusion, uncertainty, lies and deceit and I have major trust issues when it comes to whatever they say and as far as I'm concerned, they have blood on their hands that will never wash away. My issue with the vaccine as well is that we have the government telling us basically that it's their way or the highway and that's not very fair considering everything that has gone on. I understand people have lost loved ones, I have lost people too but the government can't more or less blackmail you into taking something to gain a life back that is rightfully yours anyway. I'm not taking it because I want to be awkward, I'm not taking it for my health and for the fact I know I commonly get side effects from medicine. Even if it wasn't on medical grounds, I would support anybody's choice to not have it should they not want it just as much as I would with those who would have it. So why wouldn't people who have had it support my choice? (and this is not a dig to anyone, it's just a general statement).

6 hours ago, Julius said:

As someone who tries their best to help people when I can see that they might need it, I think this is a dangerous mindset to walk around with, just for the mental toll it would take, because you're only a hop and a jump away from being at fault for everything wrong with society. When it comes to helping others that you are in no way responsible for, I think only you can hold yourself accountable for your decisions, but I think for the average person - like myself - we'll find ourselves limited in what we can do by our time, finances, or something else.

I was in a rush to get to work and so didn't get the chance to help that homeless guy? Welp, I've caused him harm. I don't know, to me, that seems like a spiral I'd rather not go down. 

For me, it always comes back to being the change you want to see happen. I want more people to help the homeless, and so when I get the chance to, I'll do what I can to help them. It's a cold day -- do they want a hot chocolate or a coffee? They're hungry -- do they want to come with me to get some food?

But as a 22 year old in his first full-time job, there's a limit on what I can reasonably offer to help with, and so long as I try to help them, I think that's okay. I'll shorten my life, and end up getting the chance to help less people in the process, if I carry the world's problems on my shoulders. 

Oh, this was more of an example. I've known people in real life as well as those adverts say stuff like "I'm taking a vaccine to protect you, a random person buying condoms in Morrisons" and I'm like "Come on!". It's not some act of selflessness, you're doing it to protect yourself and that is absolutely fine. I've heard people say they purely do it because they want a better society and taking the jab is a way towards that but my point was that if they want a better society, there's more things we need to fix before we even have that. Homeless, delinquents, crime, etc...these are all things that would need more attention to build a better society way more than having a jab. I'm not saying to give change to every homeless person you meet but I'm saying as a way of gaining a better society, there's things that can be done first that aren't being paid attention to. I'm not saying this as you but as in general. I'll be the first to admit that I could do a little more but I'm also going to admit that I would take the vaccine for more selfish reasons, which is fine.

6 hours ago, Julius said:

I mean, even if I did selfishly want to protect myself, my friends, and my family...I think that's a completely fair line of reasoning, and that would only be the start. It would take an ounce of empathy and awareness for those around you to then start thinking about how others might be impacted if you didn't get the vaccine. 

Why exactly can't it be both me wanting to take care of myself, those I know, and those I don't? Why is it a black or white "it's us or them"? 

Oh, it can be. I was talking more about the people who say they're doing it for selfless reasons alone. You're doing it to protect yourself, which is absolutely okay. I would be the same too. It can be for whatever reasons you say it is but let's face it, you're doing it because you don't want to feel the full effects should you catch it, which I pray nobody does. Here's what confuses me though: people who have it say they have it to protect a person but how would it protect them if you (vaccinated) accientally gave it to them (unvaccinated)? Surely it would only benefit you...

6 hours ago, Julius said:

See, there are two different things here. 

Firstly: I fully respect your decision to not take the vaccine until you know more about the potential side effects, and given what you mentioned about you having side effects to similar things before, I think you're justified in being wary and waiting for more information, however long it might take. From the rest of your posts I think it's clear that even without taking the vaccine, you're aware of the situation, do your utmost to be hygienic, and are trying your damnedest without the vaccine. Unfortunately, we can't say that's been the case for everyone who hasn't had the vaccine (and to be clear this isn't me targeting anyone else in the thread, it's the impression that I get from when you look around and on social media). 

I'm thankful that you've noticed this because in all honesty, and this is not me trying to be sly here but has been something I have felt, I feel that people have judged me for not having it when in actual fact, I've done all I can to create a safer environment for myself and as an effect of that, for others too. For instance, I have a friend who does nothing but bang on about masks but I brought up the "bare minimum by just mask-wearing" argument with them. They had a pop at me because I don't wear a mask but when I gave them a list of basically everything I do in my every-day life, I got told I'm being OTT because I wipe stuff before it comes into the car/house or I mouthwash with Listerine or hand sanitise very regularly or carry cleaning stuff with me but I don't think I am. I'm just being careful and for me, *touch wood* that has worked so far and I'll continue to do it. I don't even think of it anymore, it's just become second nature. I'd rather be careful than care-free.

6 hours ago, Julius said:

Given the scale and severity of the pandemic, I just think it's unrealistic to not have any pressure around an issue like this. The same goes for voluntary consent for any number of things: real life just isn't simple enough to take things as they are in a closed bubble, there are almost always other factors at play. 

Honestly, if I didn't take the vaccine, I wouldn't feel comfortable going out to any of these events (nightclubs, football matches, concerts) anyways, so I wouldn't feel the pressure of everything going on regarding the COVID passport. Heck, even now that I've had my first vaccine, I'm not in a rush to put myself at risk like that. 

I'll be honest with you right now, even if I had the vaccines, I'd be exactly the same as I am now. I would not be any different at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again, although I think it is making a difference, I just don't think it would benefit me massively. I'm very apprehensive of going to places. Even eating out is a bit of a mixed reaction to me because of people preparing my food. It sounds weird, I get it, but it's a little daunting to me. Eventually I'll get over it but right now, it's a bit of a mixed bag. I was quite sceptical of having a takeaway that was ordered for my birthday but I ended up having it and I was fine so I'm definitely stepping forward slowly but surely. But this is my mindset and how I am. It sounds totally crap and like I'm overly cautious or very scared and timid but I have a pretty confident personality but I'm just also very subconsciously cautious.

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There are a lot of scientists who would disagree with that position, not to mention the horrifying VAERS data from the US, where mRNA is used exclusively, but they are the wrong kind of scientist and data of course.

Just wanted to note as well that this very point popped up on BBC's fact check segment today:

Claim: There are tens of thousands of unreported deaths from the Covid-19 vaccine in the US

Verdict: These reports, which have been widely shared online, are not correct.

The starting point for these erroneous claims is a US government database called VAERS, where anyone in the US can report adverse effects after receiving a vaccine.

TikTok videos claim to show people how to find data relating to deaths from the Covid-19 vaccine on the VAERS website._119548906_tiktok.png

The video claimed that this search reported more than 51,000 results and evidence of a "cover-up".

However, we spoke to the US Centers for Disease Control, who told us the methodology used to search for data in this video was wrong.

The correct figure of reported deaths among people who received a Covid-19 vaccine from December 14, 2020 through to July 19, 2021 is 6,207.

Importantly, the VAERS system is not designed to determine whether a vaccine caused a problem.

In other words, correlation does not equal causation - it's wrong to draw any conclusion about how many of these 6,207 deaths may have occurred because of the vaccine.

In an earlier statement, VAERS said its database may include "incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information" and "cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness".

It just shows that you need to be very critical of any claims and understand how to interpret sources, as well as the limitations of any databases. I honestly think that critical thinking needs to be taught more heavily in schools as people simply see these videos circulating online and take them at face value.

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Posted (edited)

As someone who works within the medical/nursing field, and has written & published their own scientific papers? Scientific literacy is a very rare commodity; and it is very very common for data to be misused, manipulated and misunderstood.  Even amongst healthcare professionals, scientific literacy is nowhere near as common as you would expect.

If this pandemic has proven anything? It's that mainstream media outlets are almost just as bad at reporting scientific data as your dodgy cousin on Facebook.  The reporting on the Astrazenica vaccine throughout Europe amongst the media in particular was beyond shambolic; and has done powerful & lasting damage that vaccine efforts will likely never fully recover from.

If you really want to make yourself informed, start with the Cochrane Library (the gold-standard of systematic reviews within the medical field).  There is a nice COVID-19 resources section that has links to some handy resources designed for the layperson; iHealthFacts is also a particularily nice & approchable resource for quick answers that is supported by Cochrane Ireland :) 

The WHO also have a nice repository of information designed for the public as well.  You can view it here: https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public

Edited by Dcubed
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2 hours ago, Sheikah said:

Just wanted to note as well that this very point popped up on BBC's fact check segment today:

 

It just shows that you need to be very critical of any claims and understand how to interpret sources, as well as the limitations of any databases. I honestly think that critical thinking needs to be taught more heavily in schools as people simply see these videos circulating online and take them at face value.

There was a similar scare with miscarriages, where people pointed to data that showed an increase in the number of people who had the vaccine and then miscarried. However, the data completely ignored the massive increase in people who have had the vaccine. It turned out that if you work out the percentage of people who had the vaccine and miscarried, the number hadn't actually increased and it was consistent with the normal chances of miscarriages. 

 

The original way the number were given was something like "in week A, Z people with the vaccine had a miscarriage, in week B, Y people with the vaccine had a miscarriage". The number was a massive jump, but the number of people who counted towards the data was also a massive jump.

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35 minutes ago, Cube said:

There was a similar scare with miscarriages, where people pointed to data that showed an increase in the number of people who had the vaccine and then miscarried. However, the data completely ignored the massive increase in people who have had the vaccine. It turned out that if you work out the percentage of people who had the vaccine and miscarried, the number hadn't actually increased and it was consistent with the normal chances of miscarriages. 

 

The original way the number were given was something like "in week A, Z people with the vaccine had a miscarriage, in week B, Y people with the vaccine had a miscarriage". The number was a massive jump, but the number of people who counted towards the data was also a massive jump.

This is what I mean. I do find it very confusing when one moment it's this and the next, it's something entirely different. I've also read on different places the same thing. There's rarely ever any straightforward data anymore.

Like I want kids in my future, that's a definite, but I'm actually a little dubious of whether that would affect my chances of having them. As ludicrous as this may sound to you, to me it doesn't. 

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Ironically, some evidence suggests that Covid itself is more likely to cause lower sperm counts in men than the vaccine.

Source.

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14 minutes ago, Goafer said:

Ironically, some evidence suggests that Covid itself is more likely to cause lower sperm counts in men than the vaccine.

Source.

Yeah, I did read about that too. But I think my problem is the fear of the unknown. There's no possible way to know about future effects and that, for me, is something that genuinely concerns me a lot. Obviously the illness itself does too as does the side effects but what about the future and the impact it would have, the boosters for the new variants that would surely happen, etc.

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On 25/07/2021 at 2:54 PM, Goafer said:

I don't. Which is why I turn to those who do, the scientists. They say getting the vaccine is what will save lives so I believe them. They've done far more research than any of us, so they are THE people to believe. 

If you genuinely think you, or anyone else, know more than the scientists who have dedicated the last few years to researching this pandemic, then that is a level of arrogance that is impossible to argue against, so I'll just leave you to your "me and mine" attitude and continue to do what I believe is right.

That's the key bit right there. These are people who have dedicated their passion, careers, and lives towards science and medicine. Furthermore, it's not a small handful of scientists and medical professionals urging people to take the vaccine, but the overwhelming majority, across many countries and continents. It's unanimous. 

On a very related note, I had my second vaccine today. I had a slightly sore arm last time around, as if somebody had given me a really hard punch. It was still very surreal being at the vaccine centre as one of the last times I was there (pre-Covid) was to take a group of children ice skating at Christmas, a few years back. Aside from that, the whole process was efficient and the people working there today were just as lovely as they were the first time around. 

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4 hours ago, Beast said:

Yeah, I did read about that too. But I think my problem is the fear of the unknown. There's no possible way to know about future effects and that, for me, is something that genuinely concerns me a lot. Obviously the illness itself does too as does the side effects but what about the future and the impact it would have, the boosters for the new variants that would surely happen, etc.

Literally all of medicine is basically this.  educated trial and error.  If you packaged chemotherapy as a new medicine people would be far more horrified, but it is an accepted treatment for more than just cancers in the modern age.   Its the nature of the....Beast... lol.  They did tonnes of clinical trials, the scientific community wasnt sitting on furlough for any of 2020.  Pandemic protocols existed long before patient zero hit the nearest hospital.  The medical sector is bound by so much red tape you wouldnt even know where to start (at least in the UK).  Complications can happen but that happens with every single vaccine, & medicine.  I had a pretty nasty reaction to the swine flu vaccine.

I havent been online in a while, but i read your reply about the hearing stuff, and yes that absolutely sucks.  I have a vocal impairment so you probably wouldnt hear me anyway, but I would still make every effort to accomodate you if i could.  I'd prob be more likely to whip out my phone and write a note (and hold it in front of you) than uncover my face though.  Curiosity - Why have you opted not to have your hearing looked into, especially at such a young age?

-

re the whole vaccine thing.... yes i believe everyone has a right to chose.  But I'm glad that most have chosen to come together and do what is in the interest of moving forward.  I dont believe we should live in a world where you are forced to have it BUT travel operators, shops, clubs, etc have a right to refuse entry if they feel the risks are not worth entertaining.  If someone doesnt want to get it based on a non essential (aka not medical) reason, they have to be prepared to take the potential downsides that come with it. 

The problem is while there are people out there not getting the vaccine but still being sensible (i actually know a few), there are people that are not because they are downright idiots, and are doing NOTHING to help stop the spread.  So sadly all people opting out are going to be tarred with the same brush.  If i see someone not wearing a mask, or sanitising, I dont have a right to know they are medically exempt, so i am just going to assume they arent safe to be around.  I'm in the very small percentage of the population who can still be very seriously ill after the vaccine, so im taking no chances.

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5 hours ago, Goafer said:

Ironically, some evidence suggests that Covid itself is more likely to cause lower sperm counts in men than the vaccine.

Source.

I saw some travel vlogging youtube guy talk about his experience with covid, he did a video a few months after initial recovery, said he had little to no function in his penis to that day.  Thats fucking frightening.

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On 25/07/2021 at 11:20 PM, Sheikah said:

It's painful to read false assertions like this yet not unexpected from someone who said there is no institutional racism in the UK...

Your post reads like that of a conspiracy theorist. There are scientists far, far smarter than you that have recommended these age groups be vaccinated based on many reasons, and not just the death count. But I'm sure you know better, right?

 

10 hours ago, Sheikah said:

Just wanted to note as well that this very point popped up on BBC's fact check segment today:

Ah yes, the same BBC the hid the Jimmy Saville crimes for decades and helped him evade justice, the same BBC that stood outside my workplace on the 17th of December 2014 and brazenly lied about what was happening on the ground, and the same BBC that told us last Summer that going out and protesting for BLM was OK because "racism is the real virus". :laughing: Give me a fucking break. It's painful to read Fact Checkers like this yet not unexpected from an institution that has done nothing but lie throughout its existence. 

The "experts" and "studies" that are constantly referred to are often nothing of the sort, they are unfortunately just another highly-politicised branch of society. Whether they find the correct and scientific result is irrelevant - find what you want to say, and bend the data to make it say that. Blessed be our righteous critical theorists who brought that little trick into academia. If you don't think that is happening, and not just in medicine, you are a fool. All you need to do is look at how the narrative has shifted over the past 18 months in the mainstream media alone. Full of flip-flopping and contradictions, full of "science" and "studies" to back up whatever the flavour of the day was. Then we have our almighty SAGE - full of behavioural psychologists, not epidemiologists, including a card-carrying member of the Communist Party of Great Britain, supposedly guiding the government through this pandemic - is that following the science? 

I am listening to the scientists - the scientists that present their data clearly and understandably, who I (rightly or wrongly) believe I can trust. Certainly more than the BBC referring to "experts" or "studies", which is not the same, to be honest. Why do they often not link to the raw data itself? And yes, I still read what the BBC and the Guardian write, regardless of my level of trust in them. I also don't think there's anything particularly wrong with listening to world-renowned and widely-published and respected scientists, biologists and epidemiologists who actually issue corrections when they get something wrong rather than just conveniently forget it - "Don't wear a mask. Wear a mask. Don't wear a mask. Wear two masks". Isn't it better to have a more encompassing view of the situation? No, apparently, and when many of these scientists that have been hounded and harassed for having the gall to go against the mainstream narrative, losing their jobs, their livelihoods and their incomes, listening to what they have to say suddenly becomes a gross violation of "what's best for society". Again, not how science works, not that anyone cares, quite clearly. The science has spoken! Like I said before, the ONS data is publicly available, that's always a very good place to start without the need for any filter, bias or "framing". I wonder how many people do that?

Science should be open to all. Silencing people is not science. You do not remove those who you disagree with. If there is no consensus that the vaccine is effective (down to 14% efficacy after 6 months for Pfizer in Israel now) or doesn't cause lasting damage and that it might better to wait, which is what I was told by my own GP in March due to my own comorbidities, then I'll do that. I know I am a vile, disgusting science-denying scumbag for simply wanting to do what we've always done with vaccines - test it (for a long time) and make sure it works. Sorry if that delays your urgent mass-consumption plans. I personally would blame China for this mess (another media flip-flop), but you do you, blame me for not falling in line like the rest of you. Again, I only see coercion, threats and bribery in the media and coming out of the mouths of politicians. In a free society, that's not how things work. I will take the vaccine when I know it's safe and has been rigorously tested. Billions of people may have taken it, but that still doesn't mean it is safe. Prepare you arms for the Winter booster. 

Back to the conspiracy theorist labels then. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Nicktendo said:

Ah yes, the same BBC the hid the Jimmy Saville crimes for decades and helped him evade justice, the same BBC that stood outside my workplace on the 17th of December 2014 and brazenly lied about what was happening on the ground, and the same BBC that told us last Summer that going out and protesting for BLM was OK because "racism is the real virus". :laughing: Give me a fucking break. It's painful to read Fact Checkers like this yet not unexpected from an institution that has done nothing but lie throughout its existence. 

Ah, fair enough. BBC fucked up with Jimmy Saville and therefore the opposite of everything they say must be true.

Honestly though, what on Earth makes you think you're qualified to state those under 40 shouldn't be getting vaccinated? I'd bet anything you have no medical background whatsoever.

Edited by Sheikah
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2 hours ago, Raining_again said:

Literally all of medicine is basically this.  educated trial and error.  If you packaged chemotherapy as a new medicine people would be far more horrified, but it is an accepted treatment for more than just cancers in the modern age.   Its the nature of the....Beast... lol.  They did tonnes of clinical trials, the scientific community wasnt sitting on furlough for any of 2020.  Pandemic protocols existed long before patient zero hit the nearest hospital.  The medical sector is bound by so much red tape you wouldnt even know where to start (at least in the UK).  Complications can happen but that happens with every single vaccine, & medicine.  I had a pretty nasty reaction to the swine flu vaccine.

I do understand this and I understand that there are risks that come with vaccines even though they can effectively help combat whatever it is. I just find it very overwhelming. It's like there's so much noise with no actual clear cut voice. I think I'd feel much safer if there were further tests being done although I do completely understand why the vaccine was released and why people would take it.

2 hours ago, Raining_again said:

I havent been online in a while, but i read your reply about the hearing stuff, and yes that absolutely sucks.  I have a vocal impairment so you probably wouldnt hear me anyway, but I would still make every effort to accomodate you if i could.  I'd prob be more likely to whip out my phone and write a note (and hold it in front of you) than uncover my face though.  Curiosity - Why have you opted not to have your hearing looked into, especially at such a young age?

That would actually have been cool but I've never had one person think of getting their phones out.

As for the hearing question, I did enquire about it before when I was younger and Specsavers said they were giving out hearing tests and they told me I needed to go to my doctors. At the time, years ago, I got an appointment to get them checked out and they basically cleaned my ears out. It made a bit of difference but not much at all. I know I should've followed it and called up but I have a fear thing with messing near my head. It took me a good few months to get my plantar fasciitis on my foot seen to so I guess you can say I'm a bit of a nightmare when it comes to that sort of stuff, haha. Besides, it's only really in the one ear and until now, I was coping okay because I could lip-read and nobody even knew, really.

Although interestingly, I understand women more than men and a customer in my store who is deaf thinks it's a frequency thing. But since the masks, it's been worse. It's like I have that issue but if there's background noise as well as the mask muffling their voices, I tend to really struggle. I ask them to repeat themselves twice and still don't understand so then I just read their facial expressions and then try to behave accordingly. Sounds bad, I know, but yeah...it's only really with those who refuse to move their masks though.

 

2 hours ago, Raining_again said:

re the whole vaccine thing.... yes i believe everyone has a right to chose.  But I'm glad that most have chosen to come together and do what is in the interest of moving forward.  I dont believe we should live in a world where you are forced to have it BUT travel operators, shops, clubs, etc have a right to refuse entry if they feel the risks are not worth entertaining.  If someone doesnt want to get it based on a non essential (aka not medical) reason, they have to be prepared to take the potential downsides that come with it. 

The problem is while there are people out there not getting the vaccine but still being sensible (i actually know a few), there are people that are not because they are downright idiots, and are doing NOTHING to help stop the spread.  So sadly all people opting out are going to be tarred with the same brush.  If i see someone not wearing a mask, or sanitising, I dont have a right to know they are medically exempt, so i am just going to assume they arent safe to be around.  I'm in the very small percentage of the population who can still be very seriously ill after the vaccine, so im taking no chances.

I believe what you've said is a little different though. Like if it's an individual company who had decided to operate in this way, that is on their head. To make it a law to have them is entirely different, in my eyes. I just don't think that doing this is the way forward towards a better future. If anything, I think it would be detrimental and would cause a further divide in a society that is already so divided.

I also understand this because I was one of them who was easily judged. I just make my own judgment calls. If I feel like they are hygienic, I'll be a bit more at ease. If I see they don't care about their standards, I'll back the hell away. That sounds judgmental in itself, I realise that, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

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