Xbox Series S | X Console Discussion

[Dcubed]

11 hours ago, Sheikah said:

It's crazy isn't it, the Microsoft kiss of death again (yeah, ultimately this released on their watch). You can see why Microsoft were desperate to get hold of COD now.

You can blame MS for releasing this game on their watch, but they also released HiFi Rush this year as well (and they were also responsible for the shadow drop release as well, which ended up being an enormously successful marketing tactic in the end for that game).

Swings & roundabouts.  Not everything involving Bethesda is their fault.

[Sheikah]

You can blame MS for releasing this game on their watch, but they also released HiFi Rush this year as well (and they were also responsible for the shadow drop release as well, which ended up being an enormously successful marketing tactic in the end for that game).

Swings & roundabouts.  Not everything involving Bethesda is their fault.

This is definitely their fault, they own them. They should either have cancelled the game entirely after seeing it or delayed it substantially for it to be reworked/remade. They allowed it to ship in this sorry state.

 

Saying that another of their studios released a good game doesn't change the situation, and especially not when this isn't the first game they've screwed up recently. Microsoft have a reputation now for terrible studio mismanagement.

[Dcubed]

21 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

This is definitely their fault, they own them. They should either have cancelled the game entirely after seeing it or delayed it substantially for it to be reworked/remade. They allowed it to ship in this sorry state.

 

Saying that another of their studios released a good game doesn't change the situation, and especially not when this isn't the first game they've screwed up recently. Microsoft have a reputation now for terrible studio mismanagement.

Ultimately it's a bit of a delecate balancing act when it comes to exerting control over studios you've purchased isn't it?

After all, it was Microsoft's heavyhanded management style that famously ended up killing Rare and Lionhead.  They've done the most harm to their studios when they ended up exerting tighter control, and that's even true now (343 being perhaps the best example, with the 18 month contractor period stipulation perhaps being the most obviously damaging thing that Microsoft forced upon the studio).  They have put out some good stuff over the past few years (granted, most of it being multiplatform), but its usually come from when they have took a step back and let their developers get on with minimal corporate meddling involved.

They already gave Bethesda extra time to polish up Redfall, even giving up their critical November 2022 release slot in order to give them those extra 6 or so months (and that's something that Xbox really suffered for; as they conceded the 2022 Xmas period to Sony and GOWR).  At what point do you blame MS as a publisher here for Bethesda's failings? Hindsight tells us that it would've been a better idea to have just cancelled Redfall as soon as MS bought Bethesda, but is that really the case? What do you think it would've done to the morale at Arkane? How do you think it would've damaged their relationship with Bethesda and the rest of their studios? The ripple effects of dumpstering an existing project far into development as soon as they bought Bethesda would probably have been devestating, and people would've cried tears of "It's Rare all over again!!!".

Damned if they do, damned if they don't in this situation.

Edited May 4 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

30 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Ultimately it's a bit of a delecate balancing act when it comes to exerting control over studios you've purchased isn't it?

After all, it was Microsoft's heavyhanded management style that famously ended up killing Rare and Lionhead.  They've done the most harm to their studios when they ended up exerting tighter control, and that's even true now (343 being perhaps the best example, with the 18 month contractor period stipulation perhaps being the most obviously damaging thing that Microsoft forced upon the studio).  They have put out some good stuff over the past few years (granted, most of it being multiplatform), but its usually come from when they have took a step back and let their developers get on with minimal corporate meddling involved.

They already gave Bethesda extra time to polish up Redfall, even giving up their critical November 2022 release slot in order to give them those extra 6 or so months (and that's something that Xbox really suffered for; as they conceded the 2022 Xmas period to Sony and GOWR).  At what point do you blame MS as a publisher here for Bethesda's failings? Hindsight tells us that it would've been a better idea to have just cancelled Redfall as soon as MS bought Bethesda, but is that really the case? What do you think it would've done to the morale at Arkane? How do you think it would've damaged their relationship with Bethesda and the rest of their studios? The ripple effects of dumpstering an existing project far into development as soon as they bought Bethesda would probably have been devestating, and people would've cried tears of "It's Rare all over again!!!".

Damned if they do, damned if they don't in this situation.

You're making it sound like some complex puzzle but it really isn't. Playing Redfall for the smallest amount of time is very revealing - it is garbage. And Microsoft signed off on this; not just on releasing a bad game, but not allowing this to be further delayed at the very least to sort out the basics like getting 60 FPS on Xbox Series X (as well as addressing the litany of bugs).

Talking about past studios (where you don't even know the specifics of Microsoft's involvement) is a weird thing to start doing, especially because they should be getting involved but in a positive way. You're basically saying that Microsoft are bad at managing studios and therefore...shouldn't manage the studio meaingfully at all? That's from one bad extreme to another. How about getting better at managing? Microsoft should be stepping in when a game they plan to release is in a terrible state to sort it out - whether that means sending in external support or making the tough decision to cancel it, that's something they needed to do.

And put it this way - the fact Microsoft didn't shut this down has now reflected very, very badly on them and Game Pass too - so yes, absolutely they should have been doing their job to either cancel or significantly delay this game!

You mentioned the morale at Arkane if they cancelled there and then - what do you reckon their morale is like right now, after releasing this game to a scathing critical reception? Pretty terrible, I'd bet. They might even be wondering whether they'll get to make another game. I think the damage to morale in the here and now is far worse than if they cancelled it back then - this game feels like little love went into it, certainly not like previous Arkane games. It almost feels like a reworked live service game they may have been forced to make. I don't think they'd have been as beat up about its cancellation as you're suggesting. The team must have known from playing it that this wasn't a good game - its cancellation may have even been a blessing.

Edited May 4 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

9 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Talking about past studios (where you don't even know the specifics of Microsoft's involvement) is a weird thing to start doing,

Ohohohoho! But we do know...

https://www.eurogamer.net/who-killed-rare

https://www.eurogamer.net/lionhead-the-inside-story

And one of the biggest things that ended up killing Rare was... yes, the constant cancellation of existing projects (known, but not limited to...  Savannah, Perfect Dark Core, Kameo 2, Urchin, and Sabreman Stampede).  Hell, Microsoft even performed an obituary for said cancelled games within Rare Replay itself, you can go ahead and watch the interviews where the Rare staff talk about the many, many cancelled projects under Microsoft's tenure).  The ghosts of Microsoft's past with how they handled older studios continues to haunt them and it absolutely would have done tremendous damage to drudge them up again here if they cancelled Redfall.

The last thing Microsoft needs is another Rare on their hands.  And while they're hurting now? Redfall's failure will eventually blow over.  They're never getting Rare back though.

[Sheikah]

4 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Ohohohoho! But we do know...

https://www.eurogamer.net/who-killed-rare

https://www.eurogamer.net/lionhead-the-inside-story

And one of the biggest things that ended up killing Rare was... yes, the constant cancellation of existing projects (known, but not limited to...  Savannah, Perfect Dark Core, Kameo 2, Urchin, and Sabreman Stampede).  Hell, Microsoft even performed an obituary for said cancelled games within Rare Replay itself, you can go ahead and watch the interviews where the Rare staff talk about the many, many cancelled projects under Microsoft's tenure).  The ghosts of Microsoft's past with how they handled older studios continues to haunt them and it absolutely would have done tremendous damage to drudge them up again here if they cancelled Redfall.

The last thing Microsoft needs is another Rare on their hands.  And while they're hurting now? Redfall's failure will eventually blow over.  They're never getting Rare back though.

You didn't reply to the rest though...

So you're saying because, years ago, they did a bad job, they should just allow any old crap to be released and damage their brand? Not manage in a positive way at all...not get better at management? They should absolutely have either cancelled this after seeing it, or send in external support to get it working. They've had years to help them at least get this running competently on their flagship console.

Edited May 4 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

10 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Maybe reply to the rest?

So you're saying because, years ago, they did a bad job, they should just allow any old crap to be released and damage their brand? Not manage in a positive way at all...not get better at management?

No, what I'm saying is that their reputation for how they handled acquisitions in the past put them in a position where they couldn't just walk in and cancel an Arkane game that was already far into development without very severe consequences that could've easily destroyed the entire studio (and indeed could easily have damaged all of XGS and Bethesda's other studios in the process).

This put them in a bad position where they probably knew that they had a stinker on their hands, but couldn't do anything other than delay the game (which they already did for 6 months, giving up their Xmas 2022 to do so).

At some point though, they need to cut their losses and stop throwing good money after bad.  It would be irresponsible to throw even more development time and budget behind a game that is fundamentally rotten to the core.  They did the brave thing already and gave Bethesda/Arkane amples of extra time (at a very severe cost to the Xbox brand already).  At some point though, they have to just release the thing; and it's probably better for them to just leave it now and move on.

It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

Edited May 4 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

5 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

No, what I'm saying is that they're reputation for how they handled acquisitions in the past put them in a position where they couldn't just walk in and cancel a game that was already far into development without very severe consequences that could've easily destroyed the entire studio (and indeed could easily have damaged all of XGS and Bethesda's other studios in the process).

Everyone making this game must have known it was a stinker, it's not a labour of love like previous Arkane games. I think you are massively overestimating the impact on morale of cancelling this game - I can only speak from my own (unrelated) job that it's a blessing if a project I really dislike gets cancelled.

You're saying cancelling the game could have destroyed the entire studio but the chance of that happening now after its release to terrible reviews is much higher. For instance, Forspoken's developer has been merged, and that's actually a considerably better game than Redfall.

The release of this game has also damaged the brand, and Microsoft should have known that would happen.

Edited May 4 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

7 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

You're saying cancelling the game could have destroyed the entire studio but the chance of that happening now after its release to terrible reviews is much higher. For instance, Forspoken's developer has been merged, and that's actually a considerably better game than Redfall.

That's nonsense.  Arkane isn't going anywhere.  They've had one stinker amidst a sea of critically acclaimed titles, a track record nearly unmatched in the industry (even critical darlings Naughty Dog and Insomniac put out stinkers like Fuse and Way of The Warrior! Virtually nobody has a flawless track record).  There is nothing whatsoever to suggest that the studio is going to be shuttered after Redfall, especially with Microsoft taking the financial hit here.

Luminous Productions are now 3/3 when it comes to failed projects (Final Fantasy Versus 13, FF15 and Forspoken) and are a massive money sink that Square Enix simply cannot afford.  We all knew that the studio was doomed to be shut down well before Forspoken even launched; it's a false equivilence and you know it.

Edited May 4 by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

 

Quote

Luminous Productions are now 3/3 when it comes to failed projects (Final Fantasy Versus 13, FF15 and Forspoken) and are a massive money sink that Square Enix simply cannot afford.  We all knew that the studio was doomed to be shut down well before Forspoken even launched; it's a false equivilence and you know it.

Final Fantasy XV has a Metacritic score of 81 and sold over 10 million copies. Sure Square Enix said it didn't live up to sales expectations at some point, but they always say that. Given this, it's extremely likely (and particularly due to the timing) that Forspoken led to their merge.

You mention about Arkane's score sheet but in reality that means nothing. It's all about the here and now. Microsoft will look a this game now and wonder how the hell this happened. In fact if they do nothing at all that would show a fundamental inability to manage the studio. This game didn't come about by luck - something is clearly wrong here for the studio to have put out this game. Possibly Arkane's management, possibly some key talent has left, who knows. Either way, I would expect Microsoft to do something, which could very well include downsizing the studio or switching people about.

Edited May 4 by Sheikah

[Dcubed]

Very good interview, they didn’t pull their punches.

I appreciate Spencer’s candour here, he’s in a rough spot and doesn’t give PR fluff.  Sounds like I was right and that they weren’t really in a position to cancel the game or delay it any further, given the company’s history and their market position.

It’s good that he acknowledges how he didn’t want to repeat the mistakes of Microsoft’s past and force developers into a box where they just stay in their lane and make the games that they’re known for.  And it’s refreshing (and also quite sad) that he acknowledges that the console business is one where Xbox is simply never going to catch up to Sony and Nintendo with in terms of hardware sales; and that Starfield won’t change the fate of their console business.

It’s clear as day that Xbox will have to differentiate itself by becoming a hardware agnostic service going forward. In that sense, the ABK M&A block is a real huge blow, but ultimately MS want their games (and Game Pass) on every device. Their end goal is to get Game Pass on Sony and Nintendo’s consoles (and eventually on other devices), they don’t really want to keep their games exclusive to their hardware because they realise that it will forever limit their audience reach.

[Sheikah]

Very good interview, they didn’t pull their punches. I appreciate Spencer’s candour here, he’s in a rough spot and doesn’t give PR fluff.  Sounds like I was right and that they weren’t really in a position to cancel the game or delay it any further, given the company’s history and their market position.

It’s good that he acknowledges how he didn’t want to repeat the mistakes of Microsoft’s past and force developers into a box where they just stay in their lane and make the games that they’re known for.  And it’s refreshing (and also quite sad) that he acknowledges that the console business is one where Xbox is simply never going to catch up to Sony and Nintendo with in terms of hardware sales; and that Starfield won’t change the fate of their console business.

It’s clear as day that Xbox will have to differentiate itself by becoming a hardware agnostic service going forward. In that sense, the ABK M&A block is a real huge blow, but ultimately MS want their games (and Game Pass) on every device. Their end goal is to get Game Pass on Sony and Nintendo’s consoles (and eventually on other devices), they don’t really want to keep their games exclusive to their hardware because they realise that it will forever limit their audience reach.

I mean, you're not right though are you. Given that Microsoft own them they can cancel whatever they like, and that's exactly what they should have done to this game.

I sort of get why you're suggesting that because things didn't go well for them last time they got involved then they felt cautious to do the same thing again. But that doesn't mean they couldn't get involved, nor that they should avoid doing something that needs to be done just because it went badly before. Sometimes you have to use judgement rather than rely on precedent.

[Dcubed]

Just caught up.  That was a very good show.  Great to finally see what Inxile and Compulsion games are working on; some great surprise premieres as well like ReFantazio and Kunitsu-Gami.

They even brought back Car! My favourite Xbox character!

Looks like they'll finally be getting a decent cadence of games going from this holiday onwards, and it's about damn time.

[Julius]

20 hours ago, Dcubed said:

Just caught up.  That was a very good show.  Great to finally see what Inxile and Compulsion games are working on; some great surprise premieres as well like ReFantazio and Kunitsu-Gami.

They even brought back Car! My favourite Xbox character!

Looks like they'll finally be getting a decent cadence of games going from this holiday onwards, and it's about damn time.

Yeah, definitely a really solid show, I'd say one of Xbox's best post-COVID without question, and probably even stronger than a good share of their shows from before then too.

The Persona leaks were a shame, but like you say, things like ReFantazio (I still can't believe we finally got to see Re:Fantasy!) then came out of nowhere and took us all by surprise. Thought the first trailer for Star Wars Outlaws was a great way to set the tone for last night's gameplay showing at Ubi, and then other games like Jusant and 33 Immortals look fantastic too, but as ever I think the common theme here is, well, how many of these are exclusive?

Not too many, but it does seem that they're FINALLY getting there, and some like South of Midnight look really intriguing to me. I've talked about Xbox's output potentially not becoming a concern but then their curation turning into one in the past, and it seems like with a goal of "4 big first-party games per year" (whatever the heck that means) they're finally starting to nail that stuff in and get a good production flow going, so let's just see 2024 be the year that they hit their stride in getting a steady stream of games out. More competition is for the better, and I swear it's half Xbox's fault with so dramatically underperforming last gen and early on in this gen that PlayStation have got comfortable making some very questionable decisions of late. 

I think the thing missing for me was just showing off more demos for these games, having trailers is great but for me a deep dive (or even a shallower paddle) just helps break up the litany of trailers and helps sell us on these titles so much more. I know Starfield had a Fallout 4 level of deep dive but that nothing really got that much attention outside of their trailers during the Xbox showing proper was weird, and I think even Ubi did a much better job than them in this regard last night, with shallower swims for games like Assassin's Creed, Outlaws, and Avatar, and despite not having nearly as many games to show off I think it was closely matched as a viewing prospect because of this. 

Also, lmao, Todd absolutely sent me howling when basically went "see that moon? You can go there!" during the Starfield Direct  as soon as the moon came up I said it out loud and then he basically said the same thing! I died 

Oh, and Sarah Bond didn't go "we've got X amount of games to show you today" for maybe the first time ever?! Instead Phil reeled that off at the end during the recap (which, well, was odd), but I think they traded it in for their "you, the gamer!" speeches backed by generic epic music 

I've said it before, but while this still isn't enough to get me onboard for buying an Xbox just yet, I feel like we're slowly getting there. I give it another year and a half or two before I find myself finally willing to pick one up and check some of these games out...

...assuming they actually deliver on the promises made 

Edited June 13 by Julius

[Julius]

Console Wraps™ are on their way to Series X, a snug solution for customising your console:

Looks really neat! 

[Dcubed]

First fridges, now wraps.  Is Microsoft looking to open up a restaurant?

[Ashley]

The X is getting a lot more curvy next year: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/19/23880111/microsoft-xbox-series-x-new-design-refresh

[Sheikah]

They should call it the Alexbox.

[Dcubed]

5 hours ago, Ashley said:

The X is getting a lot more curvy next year: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/19/23880111/microsoft-xbox-series-x-new-design-refresh

Apple called, it wants its Mac Pro rubbish bin back.

Edited Tuesday at 04:37 PM by Dcubed

[Julius]

6 hours ago, Ashley said:

The X is getting a lot more curvy next year: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/19/23880111/microsoft-xbox-series-x-new-design-refresh

When I first saw the leaks when I woke up this morning, I looked up at my desk and just let out a good chuckle 

As for the decision to stay the same price, go all-digital, and 2TB (which I'm sure they want consumers to view as a trade-off for the disc drive): all makes sense to me.

With Game Pass being - by far - the biggest draw into the Xbox ecosystem these days, I'm sure their player numbers are heavily leaning in favour of digital games as it is, and I'd imagine they have the stats between Game Pass and the all-digital Series S to back this all up.