Playstation 5 Console Discussion

[Hero-of-Time]

16 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Yo!

This is exactly why I don't have a PC. Unlike PlayStation and XBox, PC has loads of games I want to play, but the cost is just far too high for me to justify it. Nintendo's cost to benefit ratio is just far more appealing.

I'm curious, what are these games? I mean, outside of the first party stuff, most games are released on all of these platforms. I suppose the indie scene, MMOs and strategy games have far more releases on PC. 

[Glen-i]

1 minute ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I'm curious, what are these games? I mean, outside of the first party stuff, most games are released on all of these platforms. I suppose the indie scene, MMOs and strategy games have far more releases on PC.

It's mostly these.

Granted, the Switch has allowed me to play way more of them compared to the WiiU days, but there are still a decent amount of games that only release on PC there.

[RedShell]

On 20/04/2024 at 2:07 AM, Sheikah said:

The majority will never take to PC as their main gaming platform. Expensive, inconsistent and not well suited to being used on a TV - which is important for many. Those who say it's superior to console are looking at a spec sheet and not the practicalities of modern life.

I've been using a PC exclusively on TV for about 4 years now and can safely say that is no longer the case. The only issue I've encountered there is with much older titles that run at lower/unusual resolutions, but even then there's always a relatively simple solution to get it working. I consider it the modern-day equivalent of blowing on a cartridge.

On 19/04/2024 at 9:24 PM, Nicktendo said:

PC and Switch is the place to be at the moment

Couldn't agree more.

I've not looked back since dropping Playstation and shifting all my 3rd party stuff over to PC. Cheaper games, better performance, no cost for online play, more customisation options, mods, and backwards compatibility that's truly future-proof. Sure, the initial costs with PC is very high compared to console, but in the long run I think it's well worth the extra investment.
I don't expect the combo of PC + Nintendo console will change for me any time soon.

[Sheikah]

Couldn't agree more.
I've not looked back since dropping Playstation and shifting all my 3rd party stuff over to PC. Cheaper games, better performance, no cost for online play, more customisation options, mods, and backwards compatibility that's truly future-proof. Sure, the initial costs with PC is very high compared to console, but in the long run I think it's well worth the extra investment.
I don't expect the combo of PC + Nintendo console will change for me any time soon.

I built a gaming PC about 10 years ago for the purpose of gaming on TV and it was all a bit of a faff. For starters, forget using a keyboard and mouse on a sofa - it's not comfortable. So you're basically dependent on a controller set up.

The main issue though was that a lot of PC games are not optimised for playing on TV from a distance. The amount of times text or UI elements were too small, it ruined playing a lot of games for me.

[Dcubed]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

I built a gaming PC about 10 years ago for the purpose of gaming on TV and it was all a bit of a faff. For starters, forget using a keyboard and mouse on a sofa - it's not comfortable. So you're basically dependent on a controller set up.

The main issue though was that a lot of PC games are not optimised for playing on TV from a distance. The amount of times text or UI elements were too small, it ruined playing a lot of games for me.

Things have changed a lot in the last 10 years.  Steam's new Big Picture Mode/Steam Deck UI is really very good now, and pretty much every game now has full controller support with minimal fuss when playing on a TV.  It's not flawless, but I have my Steam Deck docked to my living room TV and it's pretty close to the console experience; to the point where I could easily just ditch the Xbox Series X and be just as happy with it here.

The best bit though is the near limitless backwards compatibility.  I can go back and play basically any game I want that's available on Steam, from the early 2000s or even earlier in some cases.  And it all mostly Just-Works.  Sure, the earlier releases may have some control or display niggles that need to be worked around, but Steam Input is good enough to make this a minor issue in most cases.

Edited Sunday at 12:14 PM by Dcubed

[Nicktendo]

Yeah these are some of the points I was trying to get at with my previous posts, just couldn't formulate it all properly.

The more these consoles go up in cost, the less value I feel they have, when a realistically decent PC can be had for a little bit more. So if PS5 pro does launch at £500 or more, I struggle to wonder who it'll be for. You'll have your hardcore Sony fans buying day one, no doubt, but what is the appeal to Joe casual who plays only CoD and EA FC? Same for the PS5, outside of shinier graphics and better running games, the first 3 years of the PS5 were basically bare-bones from Sony. Hardly any exclusives, which is why I'm puzzled to why it sold so well compared to PS4. Once you get up to £500 territory, you're getting into PC land, and it has never been as easy as it is today to build your own current-gen level PC at a decent price.

With PC gaming becoming much easier and more intuitive, affordable modern hardware like Steam Deck giving people the Switch experience with their PC library, and PS and Xbox games being available on those platforms - what incentive is there to continue keeping yourself tied to a Sony or Microsoft box in the future? We can already see MS failing fairly spectacularly, but I don't see a plan from Sony to prevent themselves going down the same road. Their offering seems very underwhelming from the outside looking in. They seem to have gone all in the AAA story-driven big budget games, whereas during the PS3 era, they had a ton more breadth and depth to their 1st party catalogue to make those big-budget experiences have greater appeal. They also can't seem to get a handle on their budgeting and keep chasing incremental gains for what seems to me to be relatively little advantage if sales of TLOU2 are anything to take insight from. 

I'm apprehensive about what is coming next from Nintendo, but I feel fairly confident they'll find good success if the next system is just "more of the same". I can't see how Sony keeps going at this pace without taking something from Nintendo's approach to software, namely: strong console exclusives / a sensible budget for 90% of the catalogue / heavier emphasis on gameplay and keeping the output going throughout the year with AA titles. The rise of these handheld PCs, and undoubtedly at some point in the not too distant future, plug-and-play home set-top boxes running SteamOS, is surely going to start eating into Sony's profits if they don't have anything stand-out to offer.

[Dcubed]

1 hour ago, Nicktendo said:

Yeah these are some of the points I was trying to get at with my previous posts, just couldn't formulate it all properly.

The more these consoles go up in cost, the less value I feel they have, when a realistically decent PC can be had for a little bit more. So if PS5 pro does launch at £500 or more, I struggle to wonder who it'll be for. You'll have your hardcore Sony fans buying day one, no doubt, but what is the appeal to Joe casual who plays only CoD and EA FC? Same for the PS5, outside of shinier graphics and better running games, the first 3 years of the PS5 were basically bare-bones from Sony. Hardly any exclusives, which is why I'm puzzled to why it sold so well compared to PS4. Once you get up to £500 territory, you're getting into PC land, and it has never been as easy as it is today to build your own current-gen level PC at a decent price.

With PC gaming becoming much easier and more intuitive, affordable modern hardware like Steam Deck giving people the Switch experience with their PC library, and PS and Xbox games being available on those platforms - what incentive is there to continue keeping yourself tied to a Sony or Microsoft box in the future? We can already see MS failing fairly spectacularly, but I don't see a plan from Sony to prevent themselves going down the same road. Their offering seems very underwhelming from the outside looking in. They seem to have gone all in the AAA story-driven big budget games, whereas during the PS3 era, they had a ton more breadth and depth to their 1st party catalogue to make those big-budget experiences have greater appeal. They also can't seem to get a handle on their budgeting and keep chasing incremental gains for what seems to me to be relatively little advantage if sales of TLOU2 are anything to take insight from. 

I'm apprehensive about what is coming next from Nintendo, but I feel fairly confident they'll find good success if the next system is just "more of the same". I can't see how Sony keeps going at this pace without taking something from Nintendo's approach to software, namely: strong console exclusives / a sensible budget for 90% of the catalogue / heavier emphasis on gameplay and keeping the output going throughout the year with AA titles. The rise of these handheld PCs, and undoubtedly at some point in the not too distant future, plug-and-play home set-top boxes running SteamOS, is surely going to start eating into Sony's profits if they don't have anything stand-out to offer.

Same thing could be said for Nintendo too... Switch's USP isn't much of a USP anymore when Steam Deck and other similar devices can also pull the same Handheld/Docked party trick.

A simple more-of-the-same Switch 2 isn't gonna cut it over the next 5-10 years when the handheld PC space continues to open up and rise in prominance.  It might not be a threat right now, but it absolutely will be in a few years when Valve look to launch their own Steam Deck 2 and other manufacturers (potentially even Xbox) start to get into the market sector.

[Hero-of-Time]

1 hour ago, Nicktendo said:

Once you get up to £500 territory, you're getting into PC land, and it has never been as easy as it is today to build your own current-gen level PC at a decent price.

With PC gaming becoming much easier and more intuitive, affordable modern hardware like Steam Deck giving people the Switch experience with their PC library, and PS and Xbox games being available on those platforms - what incentive is there to continue keeping yourself tied to a Sony or Microsoft box in the future? 

That's the thing, you still have to build a PC. Then there's issues like different graphics card and making sure things are up to spec. The general population don't want to faff on with things like that. With a console you just buy it knowing that once you unpack it then you are good to go, without having to do any reseach. 

For me, the incentive for continuing buying consoles over a PC is simply because of the reason above. Until there's a standard box that will run every game without upgrading or faffing on then I will never touch PC gaming. Plus, as a huge supporter of physical media, PC ain't the platform for that.

[Hero-of-Time]

12 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

A simple more-of-the-same Switch 2 isn't gonna cut it over the next 5-10 years when the handheld PC space continues to open up and rise in prominance.  It might not be a threat right now, but it absolutely will be in a few years when Valve look to launch their own Steam Deck 2 and other manufacturers (potentially even Xbox) start to get into the market sector.

Is the Steam Deck available from retailers now? Geniune question. I know it wasn't when it launched. If not, then I fail to see how it will have a mass market reach.

[Dcubed]

5 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Is the Steam Deck available from retailers now? Geniune question. I know it wasn't when it launched. If not, then I fail to see how it will have a mass market reach.

It's still Steam Store exclusive... but of course there's nothing stopping that from changing when Steam Deck 2 inevitably launches.

The first model has sold at least 2 million units as of November 2023, so while it's certainly not currently threatening Nintendo's marketshare, it's also not a super niche device like the Analogue consoles, or the Playdate either.  It's not hard to see a successor console coming out with a wider retailer distribution starting to gain more of a mainstream audience.  It's only gonna go up from here, as will the handheld PC space in general, especially if Xbox do end up stepping into the ring.

Edited Sunday at 02:02 PM by Dcubed

[Nicktendo]

16 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Same thing could be said for Nintendo too... Switch's USP isn't much of a USP anymore when Steam Deck and other similar devices can also pull the same Handheld/Docked party trick.

A simple more-of-the-same Switch 2 isn't gonna cut it over the next 5-10 years when the handheld PC space continues to open up and rise in prominance.  It might not be a threat right now, but it absolutely will be in a few years when Valve look to launch their own Steam Deck 2 and other manufacturers (potentially even Xbox) start to get into the market sector.

Nintendo's First Party software is strong enough to be a USP. This has been true of all console manufacturers throughout time for better or worse, but if Sony and Xbox are abandoning that position, I don't see what they have to offer, or will have to offer over the next 5-10 years. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Is the Steam Deck available from retailers now? Geniune question. I know it wasn't when it launched. If not, then I fail to see how it will have a mass market reach.

Still only available direct from Valve. They've stated themselves it's an experiment and I don't think they have any intention of it becoming a mass-market device. But it has allowed them to develop SteamOS and get a huge amount of games running on Linux, which is very, very good overall for the traditional PC market. It has the added bonus of making similar non-Valve handheld devices and plug-and-play PC-like hardware to function like a traditional console. Exciting times.

[Sheikah]

Yeah these are some of the points I was trying to get at with my previous posts, just couldn't formulate it all properly.
The more these consoles go up in cost, the less value I feel they have, when a realistically decent PC can be had for a little bit more. So if PS5 pro does launch at £500 or more, I struggle to wonder who it'll be for. You'll have your hardcore Sony fans buying day one, no doubt, but what is the appeal to Joe casual who plays only CoD and EA FC? Same for the PS5, outside of shinier graphics and better running games, the first 3 years of the PS5 were basically bare-bones from Sony. Hardly any exclusives, which is why I'm puzzled to why it sold so well compared to PS4. Once you get up to £500 territory, you're getting into PC land, and it has never been as easy as it is today to build your own current-gen level PC at a decent price.
With PC gaming becoming much easier and more intuitive, affordable modern hardware like Steam Deck giving people the Switch experience with their PC library, and PS and Xbox games being available on those platforms - what incentive is there to continue keeping yourself tied to a Sony or Microsoft box in the future? We can already see MS failing fairly spectacularly, but I don't see a plan from Sony to prevent themselves going down the same road. Their offering seems very underwhelming from the outside looking in. They seem to have gone all in the AAA story-driven big budget games, whereas during the PS3 era, they had a ton more breadth and depth to their 1st party catalogue to make those big-budget experiences have greater appeal. They also can't seem to get a handle on their budgeting and keep chasing incremental gains for what seems to me to be relatively little advantage if sales of TLOU2 are anything to take insight from. 
I'm apprehensive about what is coming next from Nintendo, but I feel fairly confident they'll find good success if the next system is just "more of the same". I can't see how Sony keeps going at this pace without taking something from Nintendo's approach to software, namely: strong console exclusives / a sensible budget for 90% of the catalogue / heavier emphasis on gameplay and keeping the output going throughout the year with AA titles. The rise of these handheld PCs, and undoubtedly at some point in the not too distant future, plug-and-play home set-top boxes running SteamOS, is surely going to start eating into Sony's profits if they don't have anything stand-out to offer.

Building a PC isn't easy for your average person, let's not kid about. Not even 10% of gamers will be building a PC, it does require research into what parts you need and how to put them together.

Put it this way - you can spend maybe £500 and buy the PS5 Pro and just plug it into your TV and it works. Or you can faff about buying parts and put them together, and let's be honest it will be a lot more than £500 if you want considerably better performance than the PS5 Pro.

What do you think your average gamer will pick?

[Nicktendo]

2 minutes ago, Sheikah said:

Building a PC isn't easy for your average person, let's not kid about. Not even 10% of gamers will be building a PC, it does require research into what parts you need and how to put them together.

Put it this way - you can spend maybe £500 and buy the PS5 Pro and just plug it into your TV and it works. Or you can faff about buying parts and put them together, and let's be honest it will be a lot more than £500 if you want considerably better performance than the PS5 Pro.

What do you think your average gamer will pick?

There are plenty of companies that will do the entire build for you depending on your power / cost demands. They can advise you on what parts to go with and it will come out cheaper than a regular store-bought "gaming" PC. I built my own in 2019 having previously known nothing about PCs. Took about 3 months on and off of YouTube research before biting the bullet and spending around £800 on all the parts. A massive time sink, admittedly. The whole process is extremely intimidating and the build was terrifying, taking me around 14 hours to actually do from start to finish, but it was well worth it, and is not actually that difficult given the wealth of information available online. It's the time commitment that's the issue for the average person. I've easily upgraded parts of it over the past 5 years and very pleased with it. I don't know if I could go back to being console only now, but that's just me. Everyone has different time demands and different priorities. I had a old laptop that was on the way out and wanted to get a desktop instead, so a gaming PC seemed like the way to go at that particular moment.

No doubt a PC that gets PS5 / Series X performance is probably going to set you back at least double the console cost, if not more, and yes it's true that even if you have similar specs, a lot of games will run worse than on console due to the nature of PC gaming (and horrific lack of optimisation by most developers), but this is why the stuff Valve are doing with Steam Deck and Linux is so exciting. They are doing all the hard work behind the scenes so that the PC market can become much more like the console market. All it would really take is someone taking the Steam Deck's handheld internals, beefing them up a little, putting them into a set-top-box for £50 less than a PS5 and you've got a SteamOS console. Would it have the same performance as a PS5? Probably not, but it would be close enough. Honestly though, the Series X and PS5 aren't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of tech because of the compromises that have to be made in the components to get the box under £500. They have a number of advantages in getting good components manufactured cheaper in bulk, but there is only so much you can do when you're working to a strict budget.

Ray tracing and 4K60 were both hyped prior to launch, and neither have been delivered. AMD are way behind Nvidia in a lot of RT and the machine learning stuff that makes it run on weaker hardware and Xbox and Sony are stuck with them. We've got 1440p/4K and 30fps in some games and a blurry "performance mode" which is often 1080p or less. Chasing power is not going to work as it did in the past for either of them when you have to reset every 5-6 years or have a half-step in the middle, because PC tech will always be ahead 6 months after launch, and considerably so in the second half of a console's life. It was absolutely the right thing to do in the early 2000s when gaming PCs were in a bad place and almost impossibly inaccessible, but a significant number of barriers have been removed in the past 20 years. Ironically, we could actually see decent console ray tracing in Nintendo games before we do on PS or Xbox because Nvidia are so much further ahead in this space. 

None of this really matters, however, because when this eventual explosion of SteamOS mini-PCs does happen, and Xbox and Sony games are available on Steam day-and-date, or 6, 12, 18 months later, what pull will people towards MS's or Sony's hardware? I think they're both relying way too heavily on a short-term strategy and PC gaming is only going to continue to increase in popularity and become more accessible over the next 5 years with the work Valve are putting it. 

[Dcubed]

1 hour ago, Sheikah said:

Building a PC isn't easy for your average person, let's not kid about. Not even 10% of gamers will be building a PC, it does require research into what parts you need and how to put them together.

Put it this way - you can spend maybe £500 and buy the PS5 Pro and just plug it into your TV and it works. Or you can faff about buying parts and put them together, and let's be honest it will be a lot more than £500 if you want considerably better performance than the PS5 Pro.

What do you think your average gamer will pick?

Or you can buy a Steam Deck that'll play all the same games as your PS5 (including the first party Sony AND Xbox games) but both on your TV and portably, and it's cheaper than a PS5 to boot.  No assembly required.  No tinkering needed.  It Just Works out of the box, and you even get to play all of the games you already own on PC at no extra charge, no online fee either.  You can also use whatever controller you want (even complete with Playstation/Nintendo button prompts with more modern games).

And before you clap back with questions about PS5 having a big performance advantage, that isn't going to necessarily be the case once Steam Deck 2 launches...

All of a sudden, that's a pretty compelling prospect against traditional consoles.

Edited Sunday at 03:06 PM by Dcubed

[Sheikah]

There are plenty of companies that will do the entire build for you depending on your power / cost demands. They can advise you on what parts to go with and it will come out cheaper than a regular store-bought "gaming" PC. I built my own in 2019 having previously known nothing about PCs. Took about 3 months on and off of YouTube research before biting the bullet and spending around £800 on all the parts. A massive time sink, admittedly. The whole process is extremely intimidating and the build was terrifying, taking me around 14 hours to actually do from start to finish, but it was well worth it, and is not actually that difficult given the wealth of information available online. It's the time commitment that's the issue for the average person. I've easily upgraded parts of it over the past 5 years and very pleased with it. I don't know if I could go back to being console only now, but that's just me. Everyone has different time demands and different priorities. I had a old laptop that was on the way out and wanted to get a desktop instead, so a gaming PC seemed like the way to go at that particular moment.
No doubt a PC that gets PS5 / Series X performance is probably going to set you back at least double the console cost, if not more, and yes it's true that even if you have similar specs, a lot of games will run worse than on console due to the nature of PC gaming (and horrific lack of optimisation by most developers), but this is why the stuff Valve are doing with Steam Deck and Linux is so exciting. They are doing all the hard work behind the scenes so that the PC market can become much more like the console market. All it would really take is someone taking the Steam Deck's handheld internals, beefing them up a little, putting them into a set-top-box for £50 less than a PS5 and you've got a SteamOS console. Would it have the same performance as a PS5? Probably not, but it would be close enough. Honestly though, the Series X and PS5 aren't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of tech because of the compromises that have to be made in the components to get the box under £500. They have a number of advantages in getting good components manufactured cheaper in bulk, but there is only so much you can do when you're working to a strict budget.
Ray tracing and 4K60 were both hyped prior to launch, and neither have been delivered. AMD are way behind Nvidia in a lot of RT and the machine learning stuff that makes it run on weaker hardware and Xbox and Sony are stuck with them. We've got 1440p/4K and 30fps in some games and a blurry "performance mode" which is often 1080p or less. Chasing power is not going to work as it did in the past for either of them when you have to reset every 5-6 years or have a half-step in the middle, because PC tech will always be ahead 6 months after launch, and considerably so in the second half of a console's life. It was absolutely the right thing to do in the early 2000s when gaming PCs were in a bad place and almost impossibly inaccessible, but a significant number of barriers have been removed in the past 20 years. Ironically, we could actually see decent console ray tracing in Nintendo games before we do on PS or Xbox because Nvidia are so much further ahead in this space. 
None of this really matters, however, because when this eventual explosion of SteamOS mini-PCs does happen, and Xbox and Sony games are available on Steam day-and-date, or 6, 12, 18 months later, what pull will people towards MS's or Sony's hardware? I think they're both relying way too heavily on a short-term strategy and PC gaming is only going to continue to increase in popularity and become more accessible over the next 5 years with the work Valve are putting it. 

To be honest it doesn't matter if a company will simplify the PC building process somewhat, assembling a PC for your average gamer is not easy and so most will not do it. It's also more expensive than a console and many people want to play PlayStation games that aren't on PC or at least not at launch. There are just too many reasons why consoles will continue to lead in terms of your average gamer.

[RedShell]

3 hours ago, Sheikah said:

For starters, forget using a keyboard and mouse on a sofa - it's not comfortable.

I have actually tried that in the past and yeah, it really isn't. Luckily, these days I use one of those small wireless keyboards that has a built-in touchpad, which works great.
Admittedly, I don't really play those more traditional PC genres, like strategy or simulation type games, but for the few titles I've got that require mouse/keyboard I'll just map mouse movement to my controller's gyroscope with Steam Input.

[Sheikah]

Or you can buy a Steam Deck that'll play all the same games as your PS5 (including the first party Sony AND Xbox games) but both on your TV and portably, and it's cheaper than a PS5 to boot.  No assembly required.  No tinkering needed.  It Just Works out of the box, and you even get to play all of the games you already own on PC at no extra charge, no online fee either. And before you clap back with questions about PS5 having a big performance advantage, that isn't going to necessarily be the case once Steam Deck 2 launches... All of a sudden, that's a pretty compelling prospect against traditional consoles.

 

The Steam Deck is pretty crud though. Someone has to say it. 

I remember playing it for a good hour or so at EGX one year; I played a fair bit of Elden Ring and wondered why anyone would ever want to play it that way. Honestly, for a game of that quality it doesn't do it justice. It did not run well at all when I tried it, regardless of settings. And the stick and buttons felt very uncomfortable/difficult, especially for the kind of game that Elden Ring is which requires you to quickly roll and circle round enemies while poking.

 

Fair enough, if you're travelling or away from home then the Steam Deck has a use, but you're kidding if you think most people will want to play that way, especially when most play at home where they can use their TV. It's also uncomfortably heavy to use for long periods. And I think you know it's not the magic bullet you're presenting it as - since the deck clearly hasn't replaced the PS5 like you're suggesting. It's a niche product.

 

Also if Steam Deck 2 provides a boost then so will PS5 Pro/PS6, so it'll always be behind. You can't expect a small-ish handheld that has to compromise to match the power of a full size console. And "works out of the box". Ca'maaan, no it doesn't. Since it's underpowered you often need to tinker with settings for individual games to get decent performance. The only things that work out of the box are consoles.