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Julius

Cyberpunk 2077 (10th December 2020)

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Bethesda are probably looking at this and shitting themselves.

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7 minutes ago, dwarf said:

Bethesda are probably looking at this and shitting themselves.

Maybe that'll get them off their asses.

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29 minutes ago, dwarf said:

Bethesda are probably looking at this and shitting themselves.

So they should. Fallout 4 was one uuuuuuuugly game, in all respects. So clunky to play, too. Was excited to play it but it turned out to be a huge disappointment.

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I agree. They set a benchmark with Fallout 3, but since then the world has moved on without them. Not that it gives me any pleasure to say so. 

Cyberpunk is due to release about two years after Fallout 76, but the gulf between the two is staggering in terms of what can be expected of an open world game. Fallout 76 might be perceived as something of a disastrous misstep, a 'dud', but for me it's emblematic of a long term downward trajectory in Bethesda's ability to come up with fresh ideas, or deliver a finished, serviceable product which works on its own terms. Now we'll have to wait and see if Cyberpunk performs as well as it appears to, but if it does, I don't see how Bethesda can show their faces afterwards. There's just so much ground to make up. What game could they possibly show to restore the prestige they've built up over all these years? I suspect they've got nada.

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Really like the look of the trailer and looking forward to playing this. Think I’ll try and avoid anything else on the game in the run up to launch so as not to spoil anything.

I do hope they add some next-gen upgrades, would be great to have this take advantage of the power of the new consoles.

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The takeaways from last week's hands-on impressions (shamelessly stolen from Era). Only had a chance to breeze through, so potential light spoilers ahead (such a massive list and such light spoilers I don't feel like it's worth throwing in a spoiler tag from what I've read):

Quote

• There are no loading screens aside from the initial load time.

• You can kill civilians - both in and out of vehicles.

• Waste someone near a cop or local gang - or cause enough trouble and the law/local gang will deal with you...harshly.

• Movement is a lot smoother than in The Witcher 3.

• The player is nearly always in control of the camera, even during dialogue scenes.

• There is a lot of dialogue.

• It is nothing like Grand Theft Auto [aesthetically and structure]. This is an RPG.

• There are a ton of customization options.

• You can choose between a circumcised and non-circumcised penis.

• You can get through the entire game without killing anyone.

• One of the quests has 7 different outcomes.

• The more you use a weapon, the more you can specialize in it.

• You can skip time to pass time for quests.

• 1 real time hour = 8 in-game hours

• There are no loading screens for fast-travel.

• Other than the initial load, there is a brief load when V sleeps.

• Combat feels more like Destiny.

• It's not a first person shooter; it's an RPG.

• Game ran smoothly, but bugs were present.

• Quests had a lot of optional tasks that change the outcome.

• You don't feel like the centre of the universe.

• Companions are actually useful in combat.

• Characters weren't heard speaking any repeated lines of dialogue.

• Your UI is determined by what enhancements you have equipped and by your Life Path.

• There are a lot of likeable characters in the game; it's definitely less "edgy" than previous demos.

• The side characters are very interesting.

• The open-world is stunning. Everyone gushes about the world design, atmosphere and retro-future, lived-in look and feel of it.

• The game doles out a lot of interesting lore while being very subtle and casual with it.

• There are no lore dumps given to the player - everything is experienced or sought-out by the player.

• The world is very well fleshed out and believable.

• Due to the changing allegiances of characters; you feel suspicious about every single character you meet.

• XBD's or illegal Braindances are found on the Black Market, or at certain Night Markets sold by seedy individuals.

• There are a TON of cybernetics to equip and use as well as enhancements for them.

• A lot of focus on verticality.

• There is fall damage.

• There are children in the game. You cannot kill them.

• When selecting Corpo as your Life Path, you begin the game at Arasaka Tower.

• When selecting Nomad as your Life Path, you begin in the Badlands.

• When selecting Street Kid as your Life Path, you begin in a bar in Night City.

• When the tutorial ends, it's 6 years later and it starts where the E3 2018 gameplay demo began; with the "No Future" elevator.

• Trauma Team will tase/shock you if you do not comply with their orders.

• Dialogue is delivered very well - nothing B-Movie-like or cheesy.

• There are animals - but very few of them. It is implied that they are all artificial.

• You cannot pilot AV's [Aerodynes/flying cars].

• Some YouTube Influencers are in the game - both voice and face.

• A humorous talk show is playing on a TV in V's apartment elevator.

• You can talk to everyone - even NPC's.

• You can get side-missions from NPC's.

• Lots of NPC's in the Watson area - the city feels alive.

• Parris didn't like the handling of the Quadra V-Tech - he said it was too sensitive. The dev said they are still working on that.

• Misty and Jackie are romantically inclined.

• The Life Path you choose has significant effects on your playthrough. Choices and characters are completely different at times throughout the game depending on your selection.

• Yorinobu Arasaka has the Johnny Silverhand chip.

• Gun Shops can offer you missions.

• Parris adored the Braindance mechanic. He did one to trace back through a woman's memory to locate an item in Yorinobu's penthouse.

• Judy Alvarez is the Braindance tech at Lizzy's Bar.

• The weather effects are stunning.

• The lighting effects are next-level.

• The Maelstrom Flathead mission played similar to the old demo - except that Royce isn't given the chip and he shot him in the head, so no boss fight since...he's dead. The original Maelstrom gang leader is in the building somewhere.

• if you don't intervene when Jackie is arguing with the Maelstrom ganger, shit goes down early.

• There is a roaming CyberPsycho NPC killing police with a high-powered sniper rifle.

• The streaming hands-on had lag and streaming issues - which is to be expected.

• Parris loved the hacking mechanic.

• Night City is HUGE.

• 4 hours is beyond barely scratching the surface.

• Lots of reviewers just watched the world and found it mesmerizing.

• The No-Tell Motel is in the game.

• There are so many choices and options that it feels overwhelming; before you learn to take things in stride.

• During melee - you have an attack button, a dodge button and a block button. If you time your block at the moment of impact, you will perform a counterattack. This applies to swords and knives as well.

• The music is amazing - both the score and the music on the radio stations.

• It really feels like playing a tabletop RPG, in terms of the player's freedom of choice, character creation, options available, mission choices/consequences and stat management.

• Choices feel meaningful and not just fluff. There is a palpable weight to your choices.

• Character models are impressive - but nothing Earth-shatteringly next-level.

• The world feels alive - living and breathing. This is due to the atmosphere, NPC animations/ chatter and the lighting & textures.

• Most everything in the trailer was from the prologue of the game.

• The devs took notes of bugs during play-sessions to add to the list of things to fix before release.

• Blessing Adeoye Jr. thinks the game might get delayed again...

• Driving feels great - slightly GTA-ish, but weighty.

• There are upwards of a dozen radio stations [12+].

• There is a Rock music station.

• You can hear live police reports through the radio.

• It was reiterated that all of the music on the radio is comprised of all original, new songs performed by famous artists and CD Projekt Red's own sound team.

• Side-quests are extremely varied.

• The map is obscenely packed with things to see and do.

• You can enter most every building.

• Katanas aren't Pink by default.

• Lots of attribute perks with trees of upgrades attached to each one.

• Corpo Life Path begins with your boss asking you to break the law.

• Blessing Adeoye Jr. theorized that all 3 Life Paths may lead to 3 mostly different game experiences for the entirety of the game.

• Huge variety of weapons. Even similar weapons have entirely different stats and abilities.

• Some side-missions can affect things in the Golden Path.

• Most players really liked the Braindance segments - some found it boring.

• Excitement for November 19th was unanimous among all players at the hands-on events.

• This game redefines what an open-world game can be. It may change how RPG's are made.

• It is 100% an RPG first, shooter second.

• Cyberpunk 2077 is Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and Revolution on steroids.

• Most players liked the shooting mechanics.

• Vehicles all have unique interiors.

• This game is very much an RPG, where you actually have to role-play as the character you want to play. Example is building a scrawny Netrunner and having to talk your way out of fights, due to your low physical constitution that isn't conducive for taking damage. You have to use your mind; as a Netrunner would. But, you can also play a Strong or Fast Solo and still have Netrunning abilities and mix & match your stats based on that.

• Grenades have a dome-shaped area of effect displayed while aiming before you release them.

• Braindance functions like Rick Deckard's Esper computer in Blade Runner; were you can take an event and cycle through it - zooming in-and-out searching for clues. The advantage to Braindance, is that it can be played at normal speed, rewound, fast-forwarded and slowed down; as well as applying different filters such as infrared and thermal to root out any possible details or clues that may be evident in the footage. Audio can be triangulated and pinpointed to asses any audio clues as well.

• Similar to Grand Theft Auto, you can undertake "Vigilante" missions to help out the Night City Police Department by foiling crimes and arresting gangers, thugs and CyberPsychos. I guess this means that you can roleplay as the Cop class after all. 

• There are "Bounty" missions in the game. One of which has you tracking down an infamous and extremely dangerous gang of CyberPsychos.

• Sometimes when you gain a level - you'll get an attribute point. No word on how often this happens, as you don't get one everytime you gain a level.

• Your perk skill levels can not be higher than the corresponding attribute level; so for example if your governing skill for Stealth is 6, you're Stealth skill perks cannot go above 6 - unless you increase that governing attribute's number to 7 or higher.

• Every skill in the game has between 20 and 30 perk options.

• Street Cred is not a morality system - it can only go up.

• There are some items in stores and from vendors that you can only buy if you are well renowned in Night City.

• There are Witcher Easter Eggs in the game. A Ciri Easter Egg was mentioned by Parris on the cover of a magazine he saw in the Arasaka Tower while playing as a Corpo.

• You can go on Grand Theft Auto style "Rampages".

• You can add Cybernetic enhancements to your circulatory system.

• Parris said there is a definite graphical upgrade from both the 2018 & 2019 gameplay demos.

• None of the bugs experienced were severe and should be fixed before launch.

• The gunplay wasn't as impressive as it could be, as their character was just starting out and at a low level.

• Cutscenes are in real-time and you can interact with them at all times - even changing the many possible outcomes based on your actions and observations.

• There is a "Metriod-esque" trope at the start, where after the tutorial if flashes 6 years later and all your Cyberware and abilities are stripped away; forcing you to start from scratch.

• No official confirmation of a photo mode.

• RTX is a game changer with reflections and lighting - especially at night.

• Sound effects are cinematic in quality - the game has very expensive sound design.

• There is a very Japanese/Blade Runner style side street with electrical cables hanging above you between the buildings and rows of vendors and noodle bars!

• You can watch commercials on TV.

• You still can't customize your apartment.

• Every building you enter is insanely detailed.

• Your jaw will drop when you see the Skill Perk Tree - it is like a humongous spider web - far larger than the Attribute Tree shown last year.

• Auto-Aim can be toggled on and off. It was set to "On" for everyone's hands-on experience.

• You can steal cars, trucks and motorcycles - even shooting the driver and then taking the vehicle.

• You can no longer select a wardrobe item off a hanger from the closet in your apartment. That is done via the character equipment menu. You can see your clothes in the closet - you just can't take it off the hanger like in the E3 2018 demo.

• Aside from the Mantis Blades, you can also get forearm missles that pop out and then retract after use [or at your command] like Iron Man.

• You can take enemy weapons and use them.

• Although after the tutorial players could do whatever they wanted, they were confined to Watson. Andy Kelly from PC Gamer said that Watson was under a Police lock-down and nobody could leave the district; similar to how in most open-world games you are confined at first to a large starting area.

• Andy Kelly also mentioned that you see your outfit a lot in cutscenes, where the camera will often swing down to show your torso/shirt, legs/pants and feet/shoes as well as your arms & hands - so you do see your customization efforts!

• There is a food vendor near where V's apartment is that sells hot Pork Buns.

• Main attributes can be leveled up to 20.

• When you open up the map and press the "Legend" button; these are the categories you can see on the map:

Main job
Side job
Gun For Hire
Search And Recovery
Thievery
Agent Saboteur
SOS
Merc Needed
Special Delivery
Assault In Progress
CyberPsycho Sighting
NCPD Scanner Hustles
Clothing Stores
Ripperdocs
Techies
Weapons/Gun Shops
Trainers
Food/Restaurants
Bars
and other side quests

• You can pet a cat.

• Fast travel spots are unlocked as you pass them while exploring. The reviewer found three or four while exploring the Watson district.

• There are 3 types of Cyberware - Active, Passive and Triggered.

• There are 20 modification slots for Cyberware and 11 overall body slots you can replace. There are 3 slots for active weapons that are available via a wheel.

• The Braindance headset is called a "Wreath".

• Vigilante Missions - you can scan an NPC to see if they have a warrant - or hack into the NCPD database to see who has warrants and bounties.

• There are cell phones in the game. You can call, video call and text people. You can also send files via the data plan on the cell phone to complete quests.

• There was a poster for an adult film called "Milfguard" - an obvious reference to Nilfgaard from The Witcher.

• The PlayStation Access guys loved the Braindance mechanic.

• There are "Stashes" of loot in the world that occasionally pop-up on the world map.

• You can pick up weapon mods and attachments by purchasing them, finding them out in the world, crafting them and by looting them from downed enemies.

• There is a very diverse selection of music on the radio.

• One of the radio stations was called "Pacific Dreams".

• Parris saw "A full-on shootout between a gang and the NCPD".

• Night City doesn't revolve around V - the NPCs mill about, going through their daily routines and the city feels alive and lived-in - it feels like it's really been around for a long time.

• You can summon your vehicle to you anywhere. If you have multiple vehicles in your garage, you can select which one you want and it will self-drive to your location. You can't do this at the top of a building, obviously.

• The length of the story depends on your origin, side quests, characters you side with, your story choices and preferred play style.

• As far as relationships go, it's supposedly an insane evolution in portraying the human psyche. Both one night stands and longer relationships are present, but conveyed in realistic ways. Just being the player doesn't open all doors for you - NPC's have their own preferences and relationships are layered - from antagonistic, neutral, through friendship all the way up.

• Paweł Sasko and many designers took great inspirations from Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines. He was a GM for the tabletop version of World of Darkness for a long time.

• The Badlands is a fully explorable part of the game, not just a prologue area.

• Every brand in the game is said to be rooted in the lore. Food brands, car brands, fashion brands and also military brands. For example guns have their own evolution & origin stories you can read through.

• The game will warn players if they approach a point in the story that might cut off the possibility of accessing some side content.

• The build the media played wasn't the latest one, if they encountered some kind of bug or glitch, developers knew about it and offered a solution to get past it.

• Shooting felt like Borderlands.

• Driving felt more like Sleeping Dogs/Watch Dogs than Grand Theft Auto.

• The only loading screens [after the initial load] were only after death.

• The game is full of little details - like Jackie's leg twitching when he was nervous before asking Dex a question about the heist. He visibly calmed down after he got an answer.

• "Ritual FM" is a Heavy Metal radio station featuring many known/famous Heavy Metal artists. People will be surprised who CD Projekt Red managed to hire. 

• You can steal a car only if your Body stat is high enough.

• Your apartment is similar to Adam Jensen's - it's not customizable, but it is interactive. 

• Fixers can contact you, but it depends on your Street Cred level. 

• The Life Path you select is not only important for the prologue and dialogue options you get with it; but also the endings may differ. 

• They are not sure how long the game will be, it was easier to measure in The Witcher 3. It depends on your play-style [stealth or combat]. 

• Life Path origin stories in the prologues are not the same length [The Corpo prologue is shorter than the Nomads', for example] but it's balanced so that there are more elements to Corpo play-style in later parts of the game.

• Non lethal playthrough was confirmed, but sometimes you might have to hurt someone.

• Paweł Sasko said they realized the main storyline in The Witcher 3 was too long, so they shortened it for Cyberpunk 2077. CD Projekt Red put more work into the side quests so they are longer and deeper. He said it will be revolutionary in the way that side quests can modify the main quest and even the endings.

• The NCPD might not intervene when you commit a crime in gang controlled area.

• MAX-TAC can hunt you down if you go too far, but Paweł didn't specify when exactly they will intervene.

• There's no Gwent-like mini-game; but there is one mini-game as a part of the Netrunner's play-style to upgrade your abilities. 

• The game will give you a clear message when you are closing in on the endgame, so you will have time to finish side quests. Also you will be able to come back to before that endgame state to continue playing.

• There are a limited number of slots to install Cyberware; but it's possible to replace already installed Cyberware.

• Paweł compared Cyberware to smartphones nowadays, sure there are people without them, but it's harder to live like that. It's the same with Cyberware - you might choose not to install such upgrades, but you will be weaker.

• They upgraded some things from Cyberpunk 2020 so that it's not outdated and to be understandable for people not familiar with the lore.

• Braindance is available in different forms; the one we saw is called "Flatliner".

• A Ciri cameo was HEAVILY hinted at. Paweł said to keep your eyes open. 

 

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From what I've seen over the years this is how I think the game starts up.

You go through your intro mission where you meet Jackie. Something happens and you end up stripped of everything you have. Cutscene shows the years pass, Jackie calls you down from the appartment to take a job from Dexter to steal the spider bot. Second job from Dexter is the theft of the memory chip from Arasaka. Chip is installed in the player and Sliverhand is introduced. Firefight ensues, Jackie dies in the escape. Player returns to Dexter at the motel and is shot by Dexter or someone else. Player regains conciousness somewhere outside city limits and Silverhand is re-introduced. Then shit starts to go down for real from there.

Edited by martinist

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Jokes aside, I'm relieved to hear it said so often. That's what's exciting, first person shooter not so much.

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• There's no Gwent-like mini-game; but there is one mini-game as a part of the Netrunner's play-style to upgrade your abilities. 

This really confused me because Netrunner is a fairly popular card game, which was actually part of the Cyberpunk franchise before it was rebranded as Android: Netrunner.

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So this is pretty cool:

Nice to not have this stuff locked away behind pre-order or edition bonuses, even if it is all digital. 

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16 minutes ago, Map said:

Forgot this was later today, episode 2 of Night City Wire.

 

Excited for this! The recent preview from Easy Allies' Ben Moore got me hyped again, worth checking out, think Ben is one of the best in the biz at effectively communicating his thoughts. 

The end of this year is looking absolutely stacked, but still very hyped for this game. The cut-off point for The Game Awards was November 15th last year, or thereabouts, but with next-gen consoles seemingly dropping on the week commencing the 16th (going from the release date for this and games like AC: Valhalla on the 17th), I'm curious if that will be extended until the end of November this time around? 

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Thinking about this game makes me really depressed. It looks amazing and it's been a while since the last big budget genre defining game (RDR2 for me)... it's just the first person perspective means I might not be able to play it. I've gotten over it as a creative/gameplay choice... the only problem left is first person games make me feel really nauseous. I was feeling a bit ill just watching a 10 minute gameplay video :sad: Last FP game I tried was Sea of Thieves and an hour of that made me need a lie down. I'll probably still give it a go but still, gutted.

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Just got caught up on the second episode of Night City Wire, hasn't really budged the needle much...I still want to play the game just as badly as I did before :D

Absolutely on the fence with which lifepath I want to go with! I feel like we've mostly seen Street Kid gameplay, and while I think it looks really fun and kind of chaotic at times, it just isn't grabbing me as much as the other two. On the one hand. with the Corpo, I love the boardroom side of cyberpunk stories and would be really curious to see how that path winds, and just how much control we have over our path (for example, getting out of the corporate setting and burning it all to the ground), but for the purposes of what is promising to be a lengthy role-playing game, I think I'm leaning towards the Nomad the most. I love the idea of being an outsider looking in, being a bit of an unknown quantity to the residents of Night City, and above all else, for the purposes of playing this game, I definitely feel like it would be the one I go for just based on the context that I don't know my way around Night City, and neither would a Nomad. Still not set in stone, but definitely the way I'm leaning so far. Which path is everyone else thinking of going with?

I also really liked that look we got a closer look at the music being produced just for this game, and specifically got to hear about how the singers and musicians are approaching that creative process of trying to essentially play and embody someone else's music, definitely appreciate that. And of course I still love the look of the weapons. 

Only thing I didn't like about it this time around was that it reminded me that I had completely forgotten about The World of Cyberpunk 2077, I had been thinking about picking it up but with everything going on this year it managed to sneak under my radar, really interested in the world they've created here. 

10 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Thinking about this game makes me really depressed. It looks amazing and it's been a while since the last big budget genre defining game (RDR2 for me)... it's just the first person perspective means I might not be able to play it. I've gotten over it as a creative/gameplay choice... the only problem left is first person games make me feel really nauseous. I was feeling a bit ill just watching a 10 minute gameplay video :sad: Last FP game I tried was Sea of Thieves and an hour of that made me need a lie down. I'll probably still give it a go but still, gutted.

I completely get this, I can be the same way, and not even just with first-person games (though they definitely make me feel off the most). For me what it oftentimes comes down to is actually the framerate or a particular blend of art style and character movement which can make me feel nauseous, sometimes I feel like I get used to it, but other times I have had to put games down. I fortunately haven't had it too badly since early last year when I tried to play The Unfinished Swan, there's just something about indie games in first-person which manages to make me feel very dizzy, I imagine it's to do with their camera controls and them not being as perfected as AAA first-person games, because I've been fine with games like Call of Duty, or in the case of The Unfinished Swan, I think it was more that there wasn't a clear "horizon line" I could set my sights on to focus and contrast how close I was to other objects. In terms of 3D games, back when I played Dragon Quest XI I actually had a bit of a rough time early on with its framerate which made me feel sick for the first 5 hours or so, I think they put out an update which fortunately cleaned it up a bit and thank goodness they did, because I ended up loving that game and sinking 100 hours into it. 

So what I'm hoping is that the compression of a lot of these videos of Cyberpunk is the cause for both of us feeling a bit nauseous Ronnie, I'm not sure which gameplay video you watched, but if it was anything from previews I know those previews were carried out remotely, and hopefully the uncompressed gameplay we get to experience in November might be easier for us to deal with :) 

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Hope you’re right. In my experience it’s been The Witness and Sea of Thieves, but then I don’t play any other first person games. The latter had you spinning around constantly on the spot on your ship which definitely didn’t help. 

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Next (?) Night City Wire seems to be taking place at 06:00 BST on 26th September, but is described as a "Japan Special", so it remains to be seen if there will be any new info at the event. You'd think so, but could just be a marketing push in Japan ::shrug:

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Next Night City Wire is actually next Friday on the 18th:

Guessing the one at TGS on the 26th might just be a recap on everything for the Japanese audience, or something like that? 

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Just finished catching up on Episode 3 of Night City Wire, which focused mainly in Night City and it's gangs. 

Game still looks incredible, really excited for it! So close!

However, with it launching the same date as the PS5, Miles Morales, and Demon's Souls, I'm not sure if I'll actually get to playing it on Day 1. Part of me wants to hold out for the PS5 upgrade next year before playing...but the other part knows that's more a logical decision than the one I'll end up going with, which is picking it up and playing it before then :p 

How's everyone else feeling about the game right now, about two months out? Anyone planning on giving this priority over other titles launching around the same time, or having problems figuring out when to play it like I am? :laughing:

It's funny because it feels like we've seen so much but it's still so little. I think the main thing I'm concerned about right now would be the melee, it looks quite sluggish from what we've seen so far. The previews removed my fears about the gunplay, though, and most of all I just want to sink my teeth into this world. 

I bounced right off of The Witcher 3 (I'm sure I'll give it another go someday, the free next gen upgrade is certainly enticing!) but this looks so much more up my alley, only two months to go! :D

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8 minutes ago, Julius said:

How's everyone else feeling about the game right now, about two months out? Anyone planning on giving this priority over other titles launching around the same time, or having problems figuring out when to play it like I am? 

I will most likely get it for PS4. If I end up having a PS5, cool :D But I won't wait for the PS5 upgrade to play it.

Haven't seen much of it (only one trailer) but it's enough to know that I will love it.

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I'm hoping that I'll get a chance to play it at some point, as it looks really good, but I have no idea when that might be.

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On 18/09/2020 at 10:20 PM, Julius said:

How's everyone else feeling about the game right now, about two months out? Anyone planning on giving this priority over other titles launching around the same time, or having problems figuring out when to play it like I am? :laughing:

I am super hyped for it. :cool: And yeah, it’s pretty likely that I’ll even be postponing Yakuza 7 now in order to completely focus on this at launch! :o 

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I'm still psyched for this, but I'm just going to wait and get it + the PS5 together. Happy to call it time on this generation and go balls deep into the next one.

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The gameplay demo shared at TGS earlier this morning. It's in Japanese, so I have no idea what they're saying, but it still looks great!

 

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Not at all surprising, yet still very disappointing. 

I'm honestly still a bit surprised that we haven't seen this game delayed further. I think it might be too late now (6 or 7 weeks from release?), but my gut feeling is that this game needs a bit more time cooking.

It's weird, because while I don't want to see everything the game has to offer...it does feel like we've seen such a small part of it up until now, and again, we're only 6 weeks or so out. But maybe that's just me? 

Edited by Julius

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