Spoiler-Free: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild Wii U / Switch

[Ronnie]

'Monolith Is Helping Work On The Legend Of Zelda: Breath Of The Wild'

 

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2016/06/17/monolith-is-helping-work-on-the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild.aspx

 

And?

 

That doesn't negate my suggestion this is Nintendo's first attempt at developing a modern openworld game.

 

Really fail to see what's so contentious or controversial

[Cube]

And?

 

That doesn't negate my suggestion this is Nintendo's first attempt at developing a modern openworld game.

 

Really fail to see what's so contentious or controversial

 

His point was that a 1st party Nintendo development studio has made two "open world" games: Xenoblade Chronicles and Xenoblade X.

[Ronnie]

His point was that a 1st party Nintendo development studio has made two "open world" games: Xenoblade Chronicles and Xenoblade X.

 

Monolith Soft aren't a first party studio.

 

All Nintendo did with the Xenoblade games was publish them.

[Cube]

MonolithSoft aren't a first party studio.

 

All Nintendo did with the Xenoblade games was publish them.

 

MonolithSoft has been a 1st party Nintendo studio since 2007.

[Hero-of-Time]

His point was that a 1st party Nintendo development studio has made two "open world" games: Xenoblade Chronicles and Xenoblade X.

 

Yup. Pretty much my point.

 

I can see where the confusion was though if Ronnie thought MonolithSoft weren't actually part of Nintendo. They even helped out with Skyward Sword as well.

[Rummy]

Monolith Soft aren't a first party studio.

 

All Nintendo did with the Xenoblade games was publish them.

 

As Cube says Monolith ARE a first-party studio - and the article explicitly confirms that staff from Monolith(who worked on the Xenoblade games, as was H-o-T's point) also worked on Breath of the Wild.

 

So I fail to see why H-o-T's points about Monolith and Xenoblade have been dismissed - especially erroneously by yourself here @Ronnie as you don't even seem aware that Monolith are a first-party developer under Nintendo's banner

[Shorty]

Can we get back to discussing Zelda please Ronnie made a mistake and perhaps should've just said "this team's first shot...", that point still merits discussion, even if there was a technical inaccuracy, there's no need to spend a page batting it back and forth.

 

On topic: I can't believe how long I've been playing and I've still only done two of the main objectives. There's so much to do and discover. Despite that I've found a few flaws and bits lacking, enough to dock this to a 9/10 rather than 10/10 experience, but nothing that stops it being a wonderful game and the best Zelda in years. It's found me thinking longingly already about the things they could do with a sequel, now that they've established a world and method that works. BotW could really make for an amazing OoT->MM style second outing.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Shorty

[Rummy]

Can we get back to discussing Zelda please Ronnie made a mistake and perhaps should've just said "this team's first shot...", that point still merits discussion, even if there was a technical inaccuracy, there's no need to spend a page batting it back and forth.

 

On topic: I can't believe how long I've been playing and I've still only done two of the main objectives. There's so much to do and discover. Despite that I've found a few flaws and bits lacking, enough to dock this to a 9/10 rather than 10/10 experience, but nothing that stops it being a wonderful game and the best Zelda in years. It's found me thinking longingly already about the things they could do with a sequel, now that they've established a world and method that works. BotW could really make for an amazing OoT->MM style second outing.

 

But my point is that it's completely inaccurate to suggest and continue to insist it's "this team's" first shot because it's not - the Monolith team were involved with BotW just as they were XC and XCX! Should we just be able and allowed to state falsehoods unchallenged? Are you a fan of the ol' FAKE NEWS?! Considering it was used to almost shoot down another member's points - I do think it's fair to be called on the facts of the matter.

 

I didn't fully realise that until this discussion came up so it's been interesting to learn as I absolutely loved XC - but I can see the similarities within Xenoblade and this, albeit it small given the generally different setups and the still limited amount I've played. I keep intending to play in the evening before beds - but I just keep ending up falling asleep instead!

[Cube]

I definitely agree that this could do with a "same engine and similar gameplay" style sequel like Majora's Mask. New land to explore, new characters (better interactivity would be great, too) and having dungeons as part of the environment would be awesome.

[Hero-of-Time]

I didn't fully realise that until this discussion came up so it's been interesting to learn as I absolutely loved XC - but I can see the similarities within Xenoblade and this, albeit it small given the generally different setups and the still limited amount I've played. I keep intending to play in the evening before beds - but I just keep ending up falling asleep instead!

 

On the latest episode of RFN the guys were saying how they could see the DNA of the Xenoblade games in BOTW. I imagine MonolithSofts input was very helpful in creating the massive open world in Zelda.

[Shorty]

the Monolith team were involved with BotW just as they were XC and XCX!

Okay wow, sidestepping being basically accused of being a far right Donald Trump supporter, since you mentioned facts....

 

The Monolith team, a team owned by Nintendo but with its own developers, management, directors etc, entirely built XC and XCX but on Zelda provided an undisclosed quantity of support to an otherwise completely separate team of hundreds, described by director Aonuma merely as:

 

we’ve been assisted by level designers used to large game areas, in order to make topographic arrangements

(emphasis mine)

 

On the other hand, when describing why they didn't use help on level design in Skyward Sword (and highlighting the fact that it's not considered the same team internally):

 

Even though we could have asked them for help on the technical side, we realized their way of making games was completely different from ours and we didn’t have much to learn from them on this installment

(emphasis mine)

 

Source:

Interview from Gamekult

http://www.gamekult.com/actu/eiji-aonuma-un-zelda-ou-lon-prend-plaisir-a-se-perdre-A172637.html

Translated by Nintendo Everything

http://nintendoeverything.com/aonuma-on-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-full-gamekult-interview-translation/

 

Whilst they may have assisted, this doesn't make it a Monolith Soft game, it's still the first Open World game built by this team, following their own direction. They were brought on board to provide assistance in layout and physical creation of the world, however, it will have fallen under the BotW team's direction. They will have said "thanks but no" to anything that did not fit their vision of Hyrule, of the world they wanted their game to take place in. Nothing that the people from Monolith Soft will have provided will have shaped the ultimate experience that makes this game what it is in a way that overrides the original "Zelda" vision. In my opinion, this leaves us with a creation which is completely the product of this, individual team of game developers, and thus, a final entity which can be considered this individual team's first entry into this department.

 

To break down the detail of the level of assistance for further discussion,

 

This is a list of game designers from Breath of the Wild Credits

 

GAME DESIGN

 

Kentaro Tominaga

Hiroaki Tamura

Yohei Fujino

Hiroshi Sakasai

Yasutaka Takeuchi

Eiji Mukao

Yuya Sato

Yutaka Hiramuki

Takayuki Ikkaku

Shinichi Ikematsu

Mari Shirakawa

Yoichi Yamada

Kanae Nakayama

Hiroshi Ando

Naoto Murakami

Tomonori Kawazoe

Kohei Kawazoe

Yuichiro Tsumita

Emi Takano

Makoto Shimamoto

Erina Shimamoto

Takahito Sekimoto

Yuya Imagawa

Hiroshi Konishi

 

 

And this is a list of Landscape Modelers

 

LANDSCAPE MODELING

 

Tadatsugu Motomiya

Rie Kanetake

Kohei Magome

Rie Motonari

Rieko Kano

Keihan Fujii

Motoko Tohyama

Runa Sugiyama

Keiichi Watanabe

Mitsumasa Okamoto

Takashi Mikami

Megumi Yasue

Hideki Sato

Hideaki Kato

Kazumasa Kawamoto

Yuri Suga

Kazuyuki Hagiya

Satsuki Nakamura

Ayaka Kaneko

Tatsuya Shimamura

Mari Oguchi

Makiko Yamamoto

Tatsuya Ogawa

Tomomichi Higashi

Miho Mashimo

Hiromi Koda

Yusuke Suzuki

Rena Takahashi

Tomomi Hampton

Olarn Bantukul

Daiki Moroi

Takashi Tatezawa

Masato Sekiguchi

Yoshie Ishimaru

Kanae Yanai

Mari Tachibana

Mariko Murakami

Daichi Shinohara

Ryuji Tamura

Hiromine Okura

Ryota Unzai

Masanori Kitao

Makoto Tateishi

Makiko Nihari

Saki Fujimoto

Rina Yamaguchi

Daisuke Yoshioka

Hiroko Morita

Sho Midorikawa

Maki Takano

Yuka Horikawa

Kazue Miyahara

Makoto Kayano

 

Bolded are names that also appear on the credits for XC and/or XCX. So at most (not counting for people that may have actually changed teams or just have the same names) we're look at a 12/77 involvement in these departments.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Shorty

[Hero-of-Time]

Wow. I didn't realise such an issue would have been caused by posting Xenoblade boxarts.

[dazzybee]

Wow. I didn't realise such an issue would have been caused by posting Xenoblade boxarts.

 

Ha! Interesting though.

 

Also recently read there are 900 korok seeds to get in the game. After 45+ hours and collecting 30 I find this preposterous

 

Though I imagine going to the forest gives you an insane amount. SURELY!?!?!?!

 

PS I don't want to know the answer to this

 

 

I thought surely no one is mental enough to try and go for them all.... then I remembered you're doing a 100% run

 

Though aren't you tempted to save that run for the switch?

[Grazza]

I definitely agree that this could do with a "same engine and similar gameplay" style sequel like Majora's Mask. New land to explore, new characters (better interactivity would be great, too) and having dungeons as part of the environment would be awesome.

 

Absolutely. It's funny, isn't it? Any issues I have with Breath of the Wild are due to the way it's designed, not built. It's actually built on a very, very solid base, which is something I haven't felt since Wind Waker. There's no doubt in my mind that an MM-style sequel with a neater overworld, more dungeons, no durability system, an unlimited inventory and a more fluid game overall could be 10/10 perfect.

[Rummy]

Okay wow, sidestepping being basically accused of being a far right Donald Trump supporter, since you mentioned facts....

 

The Monolith team, a team owned by Nintendo but with its own developers, management, directors etc, entirely built XC and XCX but on Zelda provided an undisclosed quantity of support to an otherwise completely separate team of hundreds, described by director Aonuma merely as:

 

 

(emphasis mine)

 

On the other hand, when describing why they didn't use help on level design in Skyward Sword (and highlighting the fact that it's not considered the same team internally):

 

 

(emphasis mine)

 

Source:

Interview from Gamekult

http://www.gamekult.com/actu/eiji-aonuma-un-zelda-ou-lon-prend-plaisir-a-se-perdre-A172637.html

Translated by Nintendo Everything

http://nintendoeverything.com/aonuma-on-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-full-gamekult-interview-translation/

 

Whilst they may have assisted, this doesn't make it a Monolith Soft game, it's still the first Open World game built by this team, following their own direction. They were brought on board to provide assistance in layout and physical creation of the world, however, it will have fallen under the BotW team's direction. They will have said "thanks but no" to anything that did not fit their vision of Hyrule, of the world they wanted their game to take place in. Nothing that the people from Monolith Soft will have provided will have shaped the ultimate experience that makes this game what it is in a way that overrides the original "Zelda" vision. In my opinion, this leaves us with a creation which is completely the product of this, individual team of game developers, and thus, a final entity which can be considered this individual team's first entry into this department.

 

To break down the detail of the level of assistance for further discussion,

 

This is a list of game designers from Breath of the Wild Credits

 

 

 

And this is a list of Landscape Modelers

 

 

 

Bolded are names that also appear on the credits for XC and/or XCX. So at most (not counting for people that may have actually changed teams or just have the same names) we're look at a 12/77 involvement in these departments.

 

Now now Shorty - asking you somewhat tongue in cheek if you were a fan of fake news was hardly me making you akin to being a hard right Donald trump supporter - the concept of fake news can exist outside of that and I'm not sure why you felt that was my point. Nor did I legitimately believe you to be a fan of Fake News - I'm just saying is it fair to leave erroneous statements being made as fact unchallenged? Nor is my point one on the level of involvement from the team - merely that they WERE involved and they DID work on a previous game that could be classed as open-world.

 

Here's what I see;

Monolith Soft have been stated to not be First-Party - I'm under the impression that they most certainly are as they're essentially owned by Nintendo now. Is this a fact? Yes, I do believe it is.

Monolith Soft's staff, including developers, being owned by Nintendo are Nintendo developers now. Is this a fact? Yes, I do believe it is.

Monolith Soft worked on XC and XCX - are these open world games? I'd say yes. Does that then make BotW Nintendo's first foray into open world games? No, it does not. Could you call this a fact? I'd say yes.

Did Nintendo ever do open world games outside of or before Monolith Soft? I'd certainly dare say yes - but even so I'll take it back to Cube's own point of the original Zelda. Does this make BotW still their 'first shot at it' in terms of Open world games? I'd say certainly not given the above 3 games mentioned.

Monolith staff were involved in BotW. Is this a fact? Well, I'm trusting that article quoting Miyamoto but it would seem like a Yes.

 

Posts and statements were being made as if these were not the case - and I object to that and won't let it go unchallenged if I an under a different impression. I see nothing wrong with that and tbh I think if anything it's of even more worth to ensure we ARE crediting studios involved - such as Monolith in this very example! Many are heralding this as the best game ever made, as well as the best Zelda ever - is it unfair to ensure that in a discussion thread about the game we can acknowledge involvement from a team that worked on it? Not to mention they worked on what I also consider to possibly be one of the best games I've ever played; especially when in this discussion it's being made out as if they're nothing to do with it or Nintendo, but rather just a publishing/business relationship on that front? I'd hardly say it's fair to those at Monolith, especially as I think Monolith have been a great acquisition for Nintendo and I think it's a great thing that they've had them involved in such an iconic property such as Zelda. Why dismiss Monolith over what I'd say is probably a pretty rare occurence otherwise?

[bob]

I don't even know what you guys are arguing for any more.

[Hero-of-Time]

I thought surely no one is mental enough to try and go for them all.... then I remembered you're doing a 100% run

 

Though aren't you tempted to save that run for the switch?

 

I guess you didn't see my post theother day about this. I actually started the game again on my Wii U and planned on doing my 100% run in between other games. It then took me half an hour to find one of the seeds due to the official guide not being that clear. At that point I just said "Nope!" and stopped playing.

[Shorty]

Here's what I see;

Monolith Soft have been stated to not be First-Party - I'm under the impression that they most certainly are as they're essentially owned by Nintendo now. Is this a fact? Yes, I do believe it is.

Monolith Soft's staff, including developers, being owned by Nintendo are Nintendo developers now. Is this a fact? Yes, I do believe it is.

Monolith Soft worked on XC and XCX - are these open world games? I'd say yes. Does that then make BotW Nintendo's first foray into open world games? No, it does not. Could you call this a fact? I'd say yes.

Did Nintendo ever do open world games outside of or before Monolith Soft? I'd certainly dare say yes - but even so I'll take it back to Cube's own point of the original Zelda. Does this make BotW still their 'first shot at it' in terms of Open world games? I'd say certainly not given the above 3 games mentioned.

Monolith staff were involved in BotW. Is this a fact? Well, I'm trusting that article quoting Miyamoto but it would seem like a Yes.

 

Listing things as facts irrespective of the bigger picture doesn't make for a good discussion... you haven't countered any points in my post, or even given evidence that you read any of my post at all. I specifically said that Ronnie was mistaken in claiming that Monolith was not first party and that he should've stated "this team" originally rather than Nintendo.

 

I'm reminded of this joke:

 

Two scientists walk into a bar, one says "I'll have an H2O."

 

The second says "I'll have an H2O, too."

 

The bartender provides them both with a glass of water because he is able to discern pragmatic context.

[dazzybee]

I guess you didn't see my post theother day about this. I actually started the game again on my Wii U and planned on doing my 100% run in between other games. It then took me half an hour to find one of the seeds due to the official guide not being that clear. At that point I just said "Nope!" and stopped playing.

 

Ha, makes more sense. Annoying the guide isn't clear.... more so because I've literally just ordered it

[Rummy]

@Shorty I didn't address the other points because I thought you wanted to keep it on topic and Zelda? I'm happy to take it off-topic to counter all of those points as you wish - but then we'll be discussing more about Monolith Soft than we will Zelda and you'll more than likely see the topic move more into realms of being off-topic. I merely wanted to correct what I saw as erroneous statements being made almost as facts in the thread - I don't think it's fair to let them go unaddressed?

 

I don't think it's fair to dismiss them or be dismissive of them, or their involvement, with this game - especially when it's getting a lot of reactions from all sorts of sides; a lot of which are incredibly positive. Is it fair or unfair to acknowledge that Nintendo took some involvement from Monolith Soft on what is one of their biggest franchises, regardless of the level of it?

 

Also to be clear - I'm not sure why anyone's trying to suggest that mentioning Monolith Soft's involvement or making a point of its acknowledgement as contributing is trying to take away from this game and "Nintendo's" side of it either - it's really not. I'm not addressing that because it simply isn't what I was trying to say and I don't actually believe anyone else was trying to say that either. Hence my original post linking an article stayed at just that link without elaboration - to point out Monolith's involvement. I didn't say it took anything away from non-Monolith Nintendo. I'm still not even saying that.

 

For the record also - nobody said *this* was a Monolith Soft game - so that's that point addressed. I am merely saying Monolith staff were involved and that Monolith staff also have previous open-world experience in the realms of XC and XCX. There is the extension of point that being owned by Nintendo and being first-party developers that Monolith developers essentially ARE Nintendo developers anyway - but I can see that's getting even further off the topic of Zelda.

Ronnie didn't claim it was the first open world game by *this* team - he claimed it was the first open world game by Nintendo - so again you're taking it off point there and if I address that we get further off-topic. Do you agree that this is 'Nintendo's first shot' at an open-world game? I agree that Ronnie may have made a mistake and misspoke - but he did continue to argue against the points being raised and showed no acknowledgement of this; and you can't blame people for taking people at their words/language.

 

You yourself state 'but on Zelda provided an undisclosed quantity of support' so I see no point getting into the nitty gritty of levels of support provided given it's something we don't fully know - we'll just argue back and forth to no conclusion because we don't have the information. I feel a lot of your subsequent points/statements/conclusions/assumptions are particularly the latter - assumptions following a statement that we just don't know enough about. I'm not about to say with certainty what Nintendo will or will not have said yes or no to - because I'm aware I don't know. I can speculate - but even then I'd present it as that.

 

What I'm saying is that Monolith were involved in this - that's just a fact that if we take the article and statement by Miyamoto as truth was seemingly being denied. I don't see the problem in trying to ensure that isn't the perception going forwards, given I think it's good that Nintendo are expanding their horizons and collaborating with their Monolith staff on a huge(as in brand-wise not BotW world-wise) title like Zelda.

[Shorty]

Ok, I hope this is the last we'll need to talk about this, but I don't want to let this go. I'm really against this derailing, but feel a bit personally targeted here. For future reference, if you want me to argue in long prose with quotes and links, just insult my intelligence by likening me to the most embarrassing idiots on the internet and/or current politically challenged morons and shrug it off as a joke after.

Ronnie didn't claim it was the first open world game by *this* team - he claimed it was the first open world game by Nintendo - so again you're taking it off point there and if I address that we get further off-topic.

At the time, Ronnie believed (albeit erroneously) that this game was made by Nintendo, without input from Monolith. Yep, he was wrong, and anything they did deserves credit. But his original point was:

Other openworld games could learn a lot from Nintendo's first shot at it.

All he was trying to say that this is an amazing open world game, and that other totally different developers could learn a lot from what they've done. Whether or not he was right about the makeup of the team involved in this, was not the original point. And, I believe his point still stands, once corrected, that this was the team's first open world game (to a degree), that they have done an excellent job on the mechanic, and that other games could take away a lot from this.

 

But rather than people say "yep, you're right, they did a great job" (or even "actually, I think x does a much better job"), it was picked apart, had devolved into "actually, I think you'll find they got help from Monolith Soft, who have made open world games before, so it's not their first open world game, so you are wrong". All totally true, all not something that deserves be dismissed, but all not really what the post was about, because it was said on the basis of a misunderstanding.

[bob]

I guess you didn't see my post theother day about this. I actually started the game again on my Wii U and planned on doing my 100% run in between other games. It then took me half an hour to find one of the seeds due to the official guide not being that clear. At that point I just said "Nope!" and stopped playing.

In case it makes a difference, I read that one website had datamined the game, and put all the Korok seed locations on a map - I think it was ZeldaMaps or something? I don't own the game so I can't check to see if finding them is any easier.

[Hero-of-Time]

In case it makes a difference, I read that one website had datamined the game, and put all the Korok seed locations on a map - I think it was ZeldaMaps or something? I don't own the game so I can't check to see if finding them is any easier.

 

Yeah, a few places have them up now. Zelda Dungeon had an interactive map up at the start of the week and it was nearly finished. Dunno if I can be bothered though.....

[bob]

Yeah, a few places have them up now. Zelda Dungeon had an interactive map up at the start of the week and it was nearly finished. Dunno if I can be bothered though.....

Fair enough, I can't be arsed playing games more than once anyway, let alone to 100%. Just saw the article and thought of you.

[Hero-of-Time]

Fair enough, I can't be arsed playing games more than once anyway, let alone to 100%. Just saw the article and thought of you.

 

Had there been trophies then I probably would have pushed myself to do it.