Posted June 27, 2016 I have a number of friends from Wales who voted Leave and I don't understand why they're so happy about the result at all. There have been several news pieces already about how the EU contributed loads towards projects in Wales, yet the country (and its participants) seem to have forgotten that. What's more, the in-fighting and self-destruction of Labour is bad fucking news for everybody, especially the Welsh. People are absolutely fucking dreaming if they think the Conservatives (under absolutely no opposition from Labour...they'll walk the next general election) will stump up the cash and support for Wales. If there's a list of priorities for that party, Wales are on the bottom of that list. I've been following the turmoil of the Labour campaign with @Blade and I can't believe how bad it seems to be going. It's an absolute fucking shambles. My family has a history (obviously, growing up in Wales) of being Labour voters. My Dad was a Labour voter til the day he died, my Mum, brothers, friend is in the Labour party, etc. I feel completely let down by how little effort they seemed to be putting into this campaign to keep us in the EU and they've done a poor job of getting the people from Wales on side. I do think some of the blame falls at Corbyn's door, but it's been a very poor performance from the party (and Remain, in general) throughout this campaign. I can't help but feel we're stuck (or on the way to that) on an island with the Scots wanting to leave and the Conservatives in full power and control. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 I would say if any individual person looked into the projects the EU funded in their community they would be very surprised. Am really so sad, and I worry for my european friends who think this means something against them. Its not that the 52% are racist, its that the racists believe 52% of people support them! And why we are seeing these vicious events unfold where people are being told to "go home" and all this nonsense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 I would say if any individual person looked into the projects the EU funded in their community they would be very surprised. Am really so sad, and I worry for my european friends who think this means something against them. Its not that the 52% are racist, its that the racists believe 52% of people support them! And why we are seeing these vicious events unfold where people are being told to "go home" and all this nonsense. The results do not give licence for people to be racist from a minority of those who may have voted Leave nor does it give licence for a minority from those on the Remain side who are venting their anger and being ageist against the old. Regardless of however right you think you are do not move to hate. Oh and regarding Wales I saw this article yesterday and is worth reading - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 From the sound of that article, Juncker said "No reform will come from the threat of a Leave vote". In other words, if you want reform, you won't get it via blackmail. Which is the only acceptable answer he could give, honestly. But despite Mr Juncker’s comments apparently focusing on what would happen in the event of a Leave vote, Boris Johnson claimed that the EC President had made clear that any attempt to change immigration rules from within would be a “sham, snare and delusion”. Man, Boris Johnson is an arsehole. That's literally the opposite of what Juncker said! Most of what you said is interesting - but as I said, I never really dwelt on the EU, it was a level of politics that always seemed very distant, relevant but like the sky - it is there and you would notice if it were to go but rarely pay great attention to it. So I am out of my depth :P But in the end it is irrelevant now... we shall see how this all folds out and I only hope things end up ok. As for that quote - exactly, I agree what was intended, he wanted to convince people who wanted EU reform not to vote leave. But Johnson, to give him his dues, was disingenuous and twisted the comment really well to achieve the opposite effect, leading to that comment only helping the leave campaign unfortunately. I say unfortunately... but in fairness the remain campaign came out with a load of lies themselves (maybe not the campaign themselves, but supporters certainly did) which undermined their message badly. The main unfortunate thing in this campaign is that the result is UK politicians have a greater say and they have lost what little trust and respect I had in them in the first place Just glad I live in France at the moment... for now at least. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 Oh and regarding Wales I saw this article yesterday and is worth reading - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale The more I read the comments and the more I think on it, the more I absolutely can't believe what Wales have done. I'm getting angry just thinking about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 Just spoke to my mother for the first time since Friday. It was as expected. Just this whole mess of me trying to explain why I'm feeling nihilistic and how my future will be impacted and her saying "we don't know how it'll be" which is true, but it still hurts in this moment. But the bigger issue was the racism. I explained how 4 people I know were attacked over the weekend and more are worried about just leaving the house or speaking a foreign language (or English with an accent) and she agreed it shouldn't happen, shouldn't use the vote as justification etc but I don't think she was getting how real this threat feels. It was just...that whole generational difference. I was trying to explain to her that the latest proposal sees us still sending the same money and still accepting free movement but phone signal was crappy and so was I. We'll see what the weekend brings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 The results do not give licence for people to be racist from a minority of those who may have voted Leave nor does it give licence for a minority from those on the Remain side who are venting their anger and being ageist against the old. Regardless of however right you think you are do not move to hate. I agree with you but it is what is happening, the very few racists out there think that all the leavers think the way they do, and its given them what they feel is an opening to behave that way. Never said it was right. I have no hate against anyone, & I didn't bring age into it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 (edited) I have no hate against anyone, & I didn't bring age into it? I wasn't directing this against you (sorry), I was just making a wider point from what I see online and in the media in general right now that these results do not give people regardless of how they voted to hate others. Edited June 27, 2016 by sumo73 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 27, 2016 I worry for my european friends who think this means something against them.. I work in Spar, as you know, but since the result of the referendum I've had a strange feeling when serving customers who aren't originally from this country. I see these people several times a week and treat them just as I would anyone else (Why wouldn't I? ) but all of a sudden I wonder if they're feeling unwanted or if they're wondering what really motivated people who they see during their daily lives to vote leave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I've been following the turmoil of the Labour campaign with @Blade and I can't believe how bad it seems to be going. It's an absolute fucking shambles. My family has a history (obviously, growing up in Wales) of being Labour voters. My Dad was a Labour voter til the day he died, my Mum, brothers, friend is in the Labour party, etc. I feel completely let down by how little effort they seemed to be putting into this campaign to keep us in the EU and they've done a poor job of getting the people from Wales on side. I do think some of the blame falls at Corbyn's door, but it's been a very poor performance from the party (and Remain, in general) throughout this campaign. I can't help but feel we're stuck (or on the way to that) on an island with the Scots wanting to leave and the Conservatives in full power and control. Historically the Labour party was for a time anti EEC/EU but the party got drunk off of the pro EU story from Tony Blair. Corbyn was EU sceptic but the rest of the party wasn't really. The final result was a compromise during the EU Campaign. The Labour party in Wales has had a long and proud history but with the Labour party in a mess right now it gives parties like Plaid Cymru opportunities to exploit the situation. If the vote in Wales had been closer I'm sure Leanne Wood, would be saying similar things as Nicola Sturgeon is saying right now, first leader or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 Yeah it is definitely due to the result in Wales why Plaid aren't spouting their usual stuff and supporting Sturgeon. The state of the Labour Party saddens me. I would have preferred there not to be calls for Corbyn's resignation. The party should have taken this opportunity to be an effective opposition and have a plan of what should happen next. Now the PLP has called for his head I think it now should roll. Corbyn being in post just undermines the Labour Party and it cannot be effective opposition and definitely not a government in waiting whilst these clear divisions exist. What I have found shocking and I have touched on this before is the clear evidence that the UK Government does not have a plan of what to do next. It is almost like they did not consider that a Leave vote would happen. Osbourne confirmed this morning that "we need a plan" No shit! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I read somewhere that whitehall were told not to draw up contingency plans. If you call a referendum you should draw up plans for what to do in the change scenario.. seems pretty simple to me. If Cameron wanted this change as little as he evidently did.. why call a referendum in the first place? This whole situation seems utterly crazy! So instead of 3 months of well planned out reaction, we have spur of the moment hope everything pans out ok reaction. The only way the "no planning" instruction to whitehall things makes sense to me, would be if the plan had always been to make sure a leave referendum resulted in disaster so that the successor (quite possibly Boris) would be set up for a spectacular fail? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 The Labour party should split, leave it to Corbyn, then the poisonous nu-Blairites can go form their own party. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 Yeah it is definitely due to the result in Wales why Plaid aren't spouting their usual stuff and supporting Sturgeon. The state of the Labour Party saddens me. I would have preferred there not to be calls for Corbyn's resignation. The party should have taken this opportunity to be an effective opposition and have a plan of what should happen next. Now the PLP has called for his head I think it now should roll. Corbyn being in post just undermines the Labour Party and it cannot be effective opposition and definitely not a government in waiting whilst these clear divisions exist. What I have found shocking and I have touched on this before is the clear evidence that the UK Government does not have a plan of what to do next. It is almost like they did not consider that a Leave vote would happen. Osbourne confirmed this morning that "we need a plan" No shit! I read somewhere that whitehall were told not to draw up contingency plans. If you call a referendum you should draw up plans for what to do in the change scenario.. seems pretty simple to me. If Cameron wanted this change as little as he evidently did.. why call a referendum in the first place? This whole situation seems utterly crazy! So instead of 3 months of well planned out reaction, we have spur of the moment hope everything pans out ok reaction. The only way the "no planning" instruction to whitehall things makes sense to me, would be if the plan had always been to make sure a leave referendum resulted in disaster so that the successor (quite possibly Boris) would be set up for a spectacular fail? The whole thing has been a mess. During the campaigning Leave were saying "we'd spend money on this and that instead" and Remain told them they're not in charge of the Treasury and they can't platform on something they won't control but they continued to do so and evidently nothing was planned. Just two stubborn camps having a pissing contest rather than showing leadership. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I thought everyone knew the Leave camp didn't have a plan. They pretty much said as much before the vote, but it got lost among all the shit flinging. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I thought everyone knew the Leave camp didn't have a plan. They pretty much said as much before the vote, but it got lost among all the shit flinging. I think the argument is both sides should have had one and neither side did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 The Labour party should split, leave it to Corbyn, then the poisonous nu-Blairites can go form their own party. Or just get over with it and finally join the Tories. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I've not watched Farage's speech from today because I feel it may tip my rage over the edge but seen some comments and he said that most of the people there have never really had a real job. Yes he used to be a trader, but for the last 17 years he's been a MEP in which he is paid by the EU to attend meetings and votes most of which he doesn't attend and then claims the EU is wasting money. Which is why Guy Verhofstadt saying this was so satisfying: [tweet]747730179779338240[/tweet] But its the infuriating thing. We (as a nation) seem to have elected European MEPs to go moan to the EU about the EU. And not in a productive "hey this isn't good, we should be trying to do this" kind of way but in a "NO I DON'T LIKE YOU I HATE YOU SHUT UP" kind of way and that is (from what I hear) what his speech was like today. It's like having a debate to discuss road safety and sending only truck drivers that hate cyclists. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I've not watched Farage's speech from today because I feel it may tip my rage over the edge but seen some comments and he said that most of the people there have never really had a real job. Yes he used to be a trader, but for the last 17 years he's been a MEP in which he is paid by the EU to attend meetings and votes most of which he doesn't attend and then claims the EU is wasting money. Which is why Guy Verhofstadt saying this was so satisfying: [tweet]747730179779338240[/tweet] But its the infuriating thing. We (as a nation) seem to have elected European MEPs to go moan to the EU about the EU. And not in a productive "hey this isn't good, we should be trying to do this" kind of way but in a "NO I DON'T LIKE YOU I HATE YOU SHUT UP" kind of way and that is (from what I hear) what his speech was like today. It's like having a debate to discuss road safety and sending only truck drivers that hate cyclists. No way has he been MEP for the last 17 years?! He wasn't even on the radar 17 years ago! I recall when he got the election to position, and I was definitely much older than I was 17 years ago....wasn't I?? Had seen one of the comedy folks on The Last Leg say the same on Friday though. One thing annoying me a bit atm - apparently I can't post anything political on facebook without it automatically being just about a Remain/Leave thing -.- I am amazed at how solidly this has shifted some people's pre-concepted mindsets to read automatically assume the nature of something and immediately go on an offensive/defensive. I've specifically tried to avoid being a 'bad Remainer' since Friday but for some reason that also means I'm maybe apparently supposed to shut up about anything remotely political! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 No way has he been MEP for the last 17 years?! He wasn't even on the radar 17 years ago! I recall when he got the election to position, and I was definitely much older than I was 17 years ago....wasn't I?? Had seen one of the comedy folks on The Last Leg say the same on Friday though. One thing annoying me a bit atm - apparently I can't post anything political on facebook without it automatically being just about a Remain/Leave thing -.- I am amazed at how solidly this has shifted some people's pre-concepted mindsets to read automatically assume the nature of something and immediately go on an offensive/defensive. I've specifically tried to avoid being a 'bad Remainer' since Friday but for some reason that also means I'm maybe apparently supposed to shut up about anything remotely political! You're old and you need to shut up. Accept these truths in life Rummy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I still post on Facebook about the Referendum aftermath and will keep doing so as long as I feel things need be brought to people's attention... and it's always good to discuss matters. If they don't want to see it they can always unfollow me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 Farage is a disgrace to this country. Everyone knows anyway but after his performance in the European Parliament this morning it is beyond doubt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 I still post on Facebook about the Referendum aftermath and will keep doing so as long as I feel things need be brought to people's attention... and it's always good to discuss matters.If they don't want to see it they can always unfollow me. I made a very conscious decision at the end of last year not to post anything about politics on my facebook page for this year and maybe beyond. It was something that I do not regret especially now. If you've read anything that I've posted in the last few days then you know that I am interested in politics but from what I've read on facebook it makes me sad from what I've read from others but I've enjoyed the discussion here, it makes me a bit more optimistic about the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 Watched Farage's speech live, pretty much confirmed everything I suspected - No mention of what might be best for Britain or readying for the upcoming negotiations, almost entirely dedicated to insults and stroking his own ego. The speech by the Scottish MEP was like a soothing balm afterward, even while watching as an Englishman in England. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 28, 2016 Sigh, I really do want my country back. This has been a catastrophe from the get-go. It has caused racists to feel validated and output that validation. We are a nation that has been built on the migration of others. Vikings, Romans, Normans, Celts etc. all were fundamental to this country and yet how many of them originated here. Not a damned one of them. The idea of Britain for the British is laughable at best. What is British? Parliament needs to nip this in the bud. Other EU countries have had referendums pertaining to the EU where the slim majority said No but it was overturned. This NEEDS to be the outcome. The economy is crashing. The promises will be unfulfilled due to being unfeasible. Taxes will rise. The pound will continue to drop. I am a sad panda Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
