EU Referendum - In/Out?

[sumo73]

There's a huge difference! We chose to join the EU.

 

We originally choose to join the EEC and did so back in 1973 and then had a referendum back in 1975 about whether we should stay or leave. Back then it was a free trade association regarding the movement of goods and services and not much else but over time it moved towards great union and more importantly political union and that was achieved in 1993 with the EU.

 

We never had any referendum back in 1993 about whether we should have carried on or not. All we got was from the then PM John Major was largely an opt out clause which meant that we didn't have to accept the Euro.

 

This current PM David Cameron desperate to keep his own party together some of whom were anti EU and the PM was also desperate to finish off UKIP biting at their heels called for a referendum. He didn't have to call for one this year but he did. If he had pulled it off that would have been the end of UKIP and other Euro skeptic MP's would have had to put up with the result. He nearly pulled it off.

 

What Cameron and the rest of the political elite did not understand was the mood of the country, the people. There is now a big divide not just between those who voted Leave and those that voted Remain but a bigger divide between the political parties and the general public. I saw the rise of Jeremy Corbyn last year and with the vast Labour party member support I thought he could speak up for the forgotten but at times he seemed distant and aloof from what the general public felt during the EU debate. I still support Corbyn but he needs to listen not just to the supporters of the Labour party but to the general public.

 

Last year during the elections I voted Labour (having been a life long Lib Dem voter) and for about two days after the elections when the Conservatives won I felt depressed about the whole thing. I just shut myself away for the weekend thinking to myself another five years of austerity, marginalisation of the poor, welfare cuts, another five years of selfishness and inward lookingness however I accepted the result. I want to add that I don't hate the Conservative party at all which seems to be the common thread with people, tribalism and hatred. What did we get last year? Hatred online for anyone who voted Tory and some protests against them being in power again. With this referendum history has a habit of repeating itself doesn't it?

 

Regardless of this vote we in the UK are still Europeans. We won't stop being the country that we were (our core principles), we won't become racists, we will still accept others into the country and we won't turn our backs on Europe. It's just we won't be ruled partly by them any more.

Edited June 25, 2016 by sumo73

[pratty]

There's a huge difference! We chose to join the EU. We were one of the major players in the EU so had a good say in rules and laws that were made. We elected an MEP to represent us. The huge majority of laws we followed in this country were made by our government, only around 7% (could be 9% can't remember of the top of my head) of our laws were made by the EU and a fair few of them were to do with the environment/air/water pollution which is something that can't really be tackled properly independently.

 

Now consider the colonies... Did they choose to be ruled by us? Did they have a say in their laws? Could they vote to leave?

 

To compare the two is absolutely ludicrous. We were part of a democracy, perhaps not an ideal one admittedly, but still a democracy, not ruled over with no say on matters and no way out without violence.

 

I'm obviously aware of the differing contexts but the similarity I see is that both the colonies and now Britain wanted to seperate themselves from under a political umbrella to their percieved benefit.

 

To get back to the original point, I don't see why it has to be perceived as insular, regressive and negative to seperate from something or someone. Seeing as the colonies example bothers people so much let's try another one. Let's say two flatmates share a flat, then one moves out to get their own place because that better suits their needs. Does that mean they must hate each other? Can't they still be friends, and still visit? Does that mean they can't still borrow each other's stuff? Can they not still lend each other a hand on a project, or share the costs of mutually beneficial boxing pay per view?

 

All I'm saying is separation doesn't have to have a negative connotaion, it can actually have positives.

Edited June 25, 2016 by pratty

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Yeah, I just had to chime in that comparing tyrannical colonial rule to the European Union membership is ridiculous - no offence.

[Eddage]

Yeah, I just had to chime in that comparing tyrannical colonial rule to the European Union membership is ridiculous - no offence.

 

Same.

 

@pratty I was just massively opposed to your comparison, that's all I was commenting on!

[Jonnas]

I haven't posted in this thread yet, since I'm still unsure about what to say. It's clear from this thread (and other places) that the campaign leading to the Referendum was a fiasco.

 

I feel this result is a disaster on all fronts, and the UK is going to pay for it more than any other place or institution. It's entirely possible that something good will come of it, but not better (the UK already had an exceptional membership to begin with, and it's not going to get those perks back if it leaves), and even then it's not going to be an easy journey.

 

I wish the best to all of you living in the UK.

 

I voted to leave and I'm still for immigration and trade with Europe, I just don't want it on the EU's terms and conditions

 

Just wanted to say: the EU doesn't set each country's immigration policies.

 

To my knowledge, the only significant EU law regarding this aspect is Schengen, and the UK was never part of it to begin with.

[pratty]

No probs mate, clearly i must have issues expressing myself because I wasn't trying to say living under the EU is the same under bloody colonialism.

[Rummy]

The idiocy of people in this county... Boundless (if this is true) - this is not me being spiteful to the part of the population who feels they want 'control of their Britain' - it's just fucking stupid to vote against something you have no idea about and on its implications.

 

Why aren't we asking ourselves how or why we let our society get to this in the first place?

Whilst I can't deny I didn't think we should be given the power of the vote, I can't deny it was truly and fully democratic. Hearing people regretting it could be a reason to argue against that - but that's to suggest I'm more right in having a say in my country than one of these other people, and I'm not so sure about that. I'm currently(tho subject to change) with @kav82 on not wanting to pledge to a further referendum just because it didn't go the way I believe is right - because I am willing to accept I could both be wrong, but also that a majority spoke in a democracy. I'm not keen to say Brexit is inherently bad or wrong even though I believe it, I feel it is just mostly unknown.

 

Back to your post though King_V - I'm glad it's making people think. Shame it may be a bit too little too late, but they ARE thinking now. As Cube says also - can we use it as a jumping off point to consider again moving forward to making other election processes more democratic, especially given the irony of some of the arguments made around exactly that and the EU?

 

 

Of course, these are mostly rhetorical questions. I know the arguments coming both for and against them, and it will start to take us off topic getting into them.

[Eenuh]

This referendum seems to have given some people the illusion that it's okay now to be openly racist and (verbally) attack foreigners living here. One of my Dutch friends posted this on Facebook today:

 

A post-Brexit day at work today involved a number of customers giving me crap about how I am a foreigner stealing jobs that belong to British people. I am a student, responsible for my own tuition fees, and have a part time job to get me through uni. Before I went to uni I had a full time job in a call center, supporting Dutch, English, French AND German language speaking countries. I dare you to find a British person that could take my place there.

 

 

[Nicktendo]

Newcastle city centre today [ATTACH]3847[/ATTACH]

[Ashley]

This referendum seems to have given some people the illusion that it's okay now to be openly racist and (verbally) attack foreigners living here. One of my Dutch friends posted this on Facebook today:

 

 

I do wonder what's best to happen here. I'm inclined to say report it but I'd completely understand any desire to just shrink away and hide because it must be tough. Employers should stand up, but who knows which side they agree with.

[sumo73]

Newcastle city centre today

/I'm not reposting that image however/

 

Stupid idiots all four of them.

[Esequiel]

There is always going to be that idiotic minority no matter where we go. I have never had an issue with people coming to the UK who pay their own way and are here to learn/work. It's good for the country!

 

I think the main issue with immigration has been that anyone who manages to get into the country can immediately start claiming benefits because of the EU laws about duty of care. If you get a family of 5 come to the UK with no jobs or money they can claim a council house because we have a duty of care to the kids, they get family tax credits and child benefit. They can claim upto I think £18,000 a year after arriving to the country.

 

This was my main issue and hopefully it will change now. Time will tell.

[ipaul]

Newcastle city centre today

 

To be fair they're just talking about sending back mackems who've moved here from Sunderland. Quite right too.

[Blade]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/lib-dems-pledge-british-return-eu-next-general-election

 

This is not surprising. The Lib Dems have traditionally been very pro-European and consistently call for further intergration. Are the Commons recalled tomorrow? I expect a heated discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if the Commons vote to defy the referendum result. I expect not. What I do expect is that the UK will end up negotiating some half arsed trade deal which will then be put to the country in a referendum with a choice with remaining part of the EU or accepting the trade deal.

 

If Art 50 is invoked there is no way going back, not without the consent of the other 27 member states anyway.

[bob]

Interesting stat I heard yesterday.

 

Apparently, 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain....

 

You guys had one job!

[Agent Gibbs]

Interesting stat I heard yesterday.

 

Apparently, 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain....

 

You guys had one job!

 

 

so "I'm a member of the UK independence party not for leaving Europe but for their other policies............"

 

well okay then

[sumo73]

Interesting stat I heard yesterday.

 

Apparently, 4% of UKIP voters voted to remain....

 

You guys had one job!

 

I remember some interesting stats coming from the Scottish referendum in 2014 that people went against their parties wishes and voted the opposite way. Some SNP voters voting to stay in the UK and some Scottish Conservatives voting for independence.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/lib-dems-pledge-british-return-eu-next-general-election

 

This is not surprising. The Lib Dems have traditionally been very pro-European and consistently call for further intergration. Are the Commons recalled tomorrow? I expect a heated discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting to see if the Commons vote to defy the referendum result. I expect not. What I do expect is that the UK will end up negotiating some half arsed trade deal which will then be put to the country in a referendum with a choice with remaining part of the EU or accepting the trade deal.

 

If Art 50 is invoked there is no way going back, not without the consent of the other 27 member states anyway.

 

Before the results came out ask yourself how popular were the Lib Dems? A party with just 8 MPs. I say this as now an ex long term Lib Dem voter. I'm sure the Lib Dems will see their member base increase now because of their new stance on getting back into the EU by invoking Article 49 and also their membership will increase because this online petition about getting a second referendum will almost certainly fail.

 

If the Lib Dems just want to get back into exactly the same EU that we have now that would be a mistake. There needs reform.

 

Regardless of the results of this vote the EU themselves need to ask why did this all happen? They need to do some soul searching themselves.

 

As I see it the UK can decide when to start Article 50 and not when the EU pushes us to start. These discussions have to be in the best interests on not only the UK but the EU as well. There can be a win-win for both now rather than some upsetting and very public divorce.

Edited June 26, 2016 by sumo73

[Eddage]

Found this rather humorous, the second referendum petition was started by a leave voter.

[Ashley]

Found this rather humorous, the second referendum petition was started by a leave voter.

 

I'm surprised nobody (seemed to) realise that petitions run for six months and this one ends in November so it must have been started pre-result. Completely passed us all by!

 

People are pointing out you don't have to be a UK national to sign it, and that is true but looking at the JSON data there's still 2,978,962 (site currently lists 3,173,885) UK signatories. Obviously those could be duplicates though and we're assuming everyone that is voting from abroad isn't an expat (or just simply on holiday).

 

But as I said before, I don't think it's going to amount to anything. Just kind of interesting to watch it play out and see if its addressed.

[Kav]

Good tweet.

 

[tweet]746681066400944128[/tweet]

[Ashley]

Yeah I think that's the thing. It's not like suddenly on Friday half the country woke up racist, but rather the racists are now feeling vindicated and like they can say whatever the fuck they want.

 

I've actually just written to my MP after seeing Jess Phillips (Birmingham) intends to raise it asking for her to support Jess and pointed her in the direction of the Twitter account/hashtag postrefracism and this depressing as fuck album: https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

 

I can't believe in 2016 I'm writing to my MP to express my concerns about racism on such a scale (or such openness I guess is the better way to put it).

[Choze]

Why aren't we asking ourselves how or why we let our society get to this in the first place?

 

Yeah I think that's the thing. It's not like suddenly on Friday half the country woke up racist, but rather the racists are now feeling vindicated and like they can say whatever the fuck they want.

 

The funny thing is, this is a worldwide trend. Its not just a local issue.

 

edit: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075?745i5vqfvfs35l8fr

 

Some social media examples. This is what happens when immigration is handled the way it was.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Choze

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Why aren't we asking ourselves how or why we let our society get to this in the first place?

 

Like @Choze says the issues we face are global, but I would expect generally better from an old superpower that had a multinational empire.

 

I feel we have very big issues with our education system and classism. People are becoming ignorant and falling for that old timeless trick of blaiming immigrants as the root of the problems in their country.

 

I think people have been greatly mis-sold to in thinking that with less immigrants there will be more opportunities for British people - For example, when I was studying for a degree the government could only fund me for 4 years (standard degree length), whereas in Norway the government funds their citizens for 8 years (degree and masters) even while overseas.

 

In that scenario, the foreigner with the Masters will most likely still be the skilled employee of choice for the job. The average Brit from a poor family background is less likely to have progressed towards Masters level without government backing.

 

I know for certain having less immigrants was the rhetoric that pushed a lot of people to vote leave and it does paint a picture of us being a less than tolerant society - and again its deeper than four skinheads with a banner on the high street - People are being sold lies (again) and regressing socially.

[bob]

I put some of the blame on The Sun and The Daily Mail, who were allowed to post lies and propaganda purely to sell more copies and make profit.

[Ashley]

I put some of the blame on The Sun and The Daily Mail, who were allowed to post lies and propaganda purely to sell more copies and make profit.

 

 

And that's from this year alone.

 

Which has resulted in stuff like this:

 

[tweet]746705379136921601[/tweet]

 

Which would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic.