EU Referendum - In/Out?

[Fierce_LiNk]

Yeah this is pretty funny.. People, this is were you're headed:

 

 

Anyway, Goodbye UK.

 

What has been the general reaction to this in the Netherlands?

 

Work was very, very interesting yesterday. Strange atmosphere. We are clearly a very divided country. The argument, "if you don't like it, you can always leave" was used many-a-time. A remain voter spoke incredibly passionately yesterday (would've put the Labour leader to shame!) and uttered a phrase I'll never forget: "I feel that I can't identify anymore with the people in my own society."

[Cube]

Petitioning for a second seems silly. It's something that people like Nigel Farage want (although he's now gone quiet about that).

[Nolan]

So that if one part is completely against something the prime minister/president is trying to push forth, they can just stop it i.e. the gun control bills, universal healthcare etc.? and then sue the president for failing to deliver on his promises.

 

No. US system is a good idea on paper, but it's broken as fuck.

 

Broken as fuck isn't wrong. However congress votes, it passes president can veto, congress can then actually overturn the veto. Supreme Court reviews laws and acts and can determine things to be unconstitutional and throw them out. Such as banning gay marriage. The court is 9 justices, and only 5 need to agree. Much harder said than done. Of course right now we have 8 because Republicans threw a shit fit that Obama might appoint someone they don't like and it shouldn't be his decision (despite him being in office for a full year post Scalia death) so just recently a decision was 4-4 and nothing was decided.

 

So yeah. Broken as fuck, but occasionally it works. Shit still gets forced through and many politicians are literally bought by corporations.

 

Anyways. Why I came in here.

 

 

Sorry.

[Serebii]

 

Never more fitting

 

Personally, I'm not that fussed.

 

My only issue was that there was no plan or idea put forward for leaving, and that both campaigns lied, exaggerated and preyed on people's fears to get what they wanted, causing the public to be confused and not necessarily know what they're voting for. This is a large part of why everything went to shit globally yesterday, because nobody knew what the fuck was going on or what was going to happen.

 

I think Britain can and will easily survive on its own. I always have. It may not be ideal, it may be hard in places, and it may not be the best option, but it can. I just wish that the way we leave and decided to leave could have been done intelligently, and based on facts rather than the scaretactics that were used.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Serebii
Automerged Doublepost

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Brexit: Anger over 'Bregret' as Leave voters say they wanted 'protest vote' and thought UK would stay in EU | UK Politics | News | The Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email

 

I think the regret kicked in as soon as anyone with savings, anyone with a mortgage, anyone with a pension, anyone with a car, anyone going on holiday, anyone with shares, anyone working in housing, anyone benefiting from EU grants and anyone who buys items from outside the UK realised the Leave campaign had stolen thousands of pounds from them overnight in devalued sterling.

 

Of course this is just the start. After Scotland inevitably leaves, the UK will become a smaller, sadder, weaker, more backward version of itself. A pathetic rump, and most likely led by one too.

 

I wonder if Scotland is accepting economic refugees, or if they plan on rebuilding Hadrian's wall?

 

The idiocy of people in this county... Boundless (if this is true) - this is not me being spiteful to the part of the population who feels they want 'control of their Britain' - it's just fucking stupid to vote against something you have no idea about and on its implications.

 

I back a second referendum (actually best of three) because I feel one vote on something so massive is not quite enough.

Edited June 25, 2016 by King_V

[pratty]

A remain voter spoke incredibly passionately yesterday (would've put the Labour leader to shame!) and uttered a phrase I'll never forget: "I feel that I can't identify anymore with the people in my own society."

 

That's a bit over the top isn't it? You'd think we'd just voted to elect Jimmy Saville as PM or something, instead of simply voting to leave an international political and economic union.

[Serebii]

The idiocy of people in this county... Boundless (if this is true) - this is not me being spiteful to the part of the population who feels they want 'control of their Britain' - it's just fucking stupid to vote against something you have no idea about and on its implications.

 

I back a second referendum (actually best of three) because I feel one vote on something so massive is not quite enough.

I back a second referendum if the campaigns start to use facts on it rather than the shambles it was.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

That's a bit over the top isn't it? You'd think we'd just voted to elect Jimmy Saville as PM or something, instead of simply voting to leave an international political and economic union.

 

It's not really - I feel the same.

 

Funny thing is I don't have faith in the voters of this country to not make a Jimmy Savile PM... Some real clowns are now in the running and even worse are getting closer to the thrown.

[pratty]

It's not really - I feel the same.

 

Funny thing is I don't have faith in the voters of this country to not make a Jimmy Savile PM... Some real clowns are now in the running and even worse are getting closer to the thrown.

 

I suppose it depends whether he meant the people around him (who's personal reasons for leaving he knew and disapproved of), or the country as a whole.

 

I feel it's a bit harsh to say you can't identify with people in general who voted leave. Does voting leave make you a bad person or something? I voted to leave and I'm still for immigration and trade with Europe, I just don't want it on the EU's terms and conditions, leaving and risking our economy may be considered foolish but does that make us bad people no longer worth being identified with?

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I suppose it depends whether he meant the people around him (who's personal reasons for leaving he knew and disapproved of), or the country as a whole.

 

I feel it's a bit harsh to say you can't identify with people in general who voted leave. Does voting leave make you a bad person or something? I voted to leave and I'm still for immigration and trade with Europe, I just don't want it on the EU's terms and conditions, leaving and risking our economy may be considered foolish but does that make us bad people no longer worth being identified with?

 

As harsh as it may sound it's the truth and going off comments and social media the feeling seems widespread - especially London vs the rest of England.

 

I've always considered my country to be an outward looking, pro-international, left wing and very liberal - but election after election that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

 

Voting out doesn't make anyone a bad person, it's just the message it sends out; that we are an insular nation and somewhat hypocritical with regards to the sovereignty issue.

[Eddage]

I suppose it depends whether he meant the people around him (who's personal reasons for leaving he knew and disapproved of), or the country as a whole.

 

I feel it's a bit harsh to say you can't identify with people in general who voted leave. Does voting leave make you a bad person or something? I voted to leave and I'm still for immigration and trade with Europe, I just don't want it on the EU's terms and conditions, leaving and risking our economy may be considered foolish but does that make us bad people no longer worth being identified with?

 

But when we were in the EU we had a major say in those terms...

 

Now we have left we have to try and negotiate our own deals which probably wont be as good. If we want access to the single market then we will have to accept all those terms and have no say in them whatsoever.

 

Maybe we can make better trade agreements with other nations but that is likely to take years, even decades to negotiate with all the different markets.

[pratty]

Being outward looking is one thing, being joined at the hip with 27 other countries and sharing legislation from one single source is another.

 

Was it insular and backward for colonies formally under British rule to declare their independence? I imagine the people of the US, of Canada, of Australia etc got sick of being governed by Britain (just as many Brits now are tired of following the EU directives and having to bargain to do otherwise), and came to the conclusion the could run themselves better as they were the best judge of what they wanted.

 

I'm sure it was a brave and contentious decision which resulted in some economic uncertainty and a somewhat divided population, but the majority placed a high value on independence and things worked out ok in the end.

[Ashley]

Can we not compare us democratically choosing to join and then leave an institution to us colonising countries through force and them getting their independence (through force)? It's not the same. As much as Farage wants it to be.

[pratty]

But when we were in the EU we had a major say in those terms...

 

Now we have left we have to try and negotiate our own deals which probably wont be as good. If we want access to the single market then we will have to accept all those terms and have no say in them whatsoever.

 

Why is it ok for the EU to have it's way in the negotiations but not the UK? Why is it the UK the villain for leaving, and supposedly obstructing trade and wanting favourable trade terms, when it was the EU that formed this exclusive and highly conditional trade club in the first place, which reaches beyond the field of trade into general politics?

 

Can we not compare us democratically choosing to join and then leave an institution to us colonising countries through force and them getting their independence (through force)? It's not the same. As much as Farage wants it to be.

 

Why? The end goals are independence. Had countries such as the US had the option to vote to leave Britain instead of fight, don't you think they would have taken it?

[Ashley]

Why? The end goals are independence. Had countries such as the US had the option to vote to leave Britain instead of fight, don't you think they would have taken it?

 

The end goals are the same, but the means is the importance issue. And the reasons. And the history. And how the whole bloody thing started.

[sumo73]

This might be a bit heavy for some but I think it's worth sharing -

 

And for everyone else-

[pratty]

The end goals are the same, but the means is the importance issue. And the reasons. And the history. And how the whole bloody thing started.

 

So you're saying because of the context you can think more of one cause for independance and less of the other?

 

If so fair enough, I think I get what you're saying but I still think we'll have to agree to disagree, to express my view as a personal analogy just because I've never been physically oppressed as a slave doesn't mean I should be thought any less of for wanting to peacefully preserve my freedom.

 

I don't think voting to leave the EU is necessarily an insular move, but frankly I think if people do want to be insular then that's fair enough, I think people should have that right to feel that way and good luck to them. Until we actually know their motives I don't think it's fair to harshly judge them, it doesn't necessarily mean they hate other people and that they are a bad person. If a person wants to hole themselves up in log cabin in the woods like a hermit I don't think that in itself is deserving of scorn, or that they should be dragged out and forced to participate in wider society against their will, at least to me that's a liberal point of view.

 

Obviously the situation is complicated by voting where an individual's vote affects the collective, but even if you think a person is wrong they deserve to have their say, that's just the nature of democracy, you take the rough with the smooth.

[Ashley]

This may turn into a ramble. I'm trying to collect my thoughts still, something I've not really been able to achieve since yesterday.

 

I see some people saying we should just "accept and move on" and that will come, but right now I feel that I have to grieve somewhat. I woke up yesterday feeling like my freedom (to live, work, study and move), my future (to possibly work, love and succeed in those places) and my fortune (i.e. my savings) had been taken from me or severely harmed. And it's all so sadly familiar.

 

I was one of those people that went to uni being promised great job prospects but by the time I finished the global economy had gone to shit. Don't get me wrong, I never expected to be handed a well-paid job alongside my mortar board, but a promise was ripped away due to a variety of reasons.

 

I've long given up on the idea of owning property, or even being able to save up to afford for it. I know people of my age do, but it comes at a much greater expense (literally and in terms of time it takes to get there) than it used to.

 

Pensions, savings, jobs for life, annual pay rises. All those little things. They're getting worse, getting weaker.

 

And yet this is all kind of accepted. It is what it is. It has become status quo. And I'm not trying to sit here and wallow but it all came flooding back when I realised yesterday more liberties were taken. The future become more uncertain. The prospect of ever having the same kind of lifestyle as some previous generations has once again been taken away from us. And you get people saying we shouldn't be complaining. Things were difficult "back then". I don't doubt it was and I'm not under any impression we don't have a lot of privileges that our parents, grandparents etc didn't have, but it really feels like the response is to try and take away what they enjoyed. It is difficult for it to not feel like retribution. The same people that are saying we should be thankful for having it easier than they did are the same ones that seem to want to take us (as a country) back to that.

 

I think part of the problem in trying to see both sides is how differently people see the EU. I see myself as an European so it feels to me like it would feel to others if suddenly you were told you can't go north of Derby. My country has suddenly been split from what I see as my nation and there's a very real chance it will be fractured further. I've always been a less borders kind of person so this is completely the opposite direction to what I would like to see.

 

I work (part-time) in the higher education sector. This is going to have a huge negative impact upon it. The amount of funding that comes from the EU for research would be bad enough, but suddenly we won't have the same volume of students coming and the money they bring. Not only in terms of tuition fees that goes to the university, but everything that comes from the money they bring to the economy (through taxes, spending etc). Yeah they're not all going to disappear, but when you consider the inevitable increased fees they'll face it will turn off a lot of students. And those people could have gone on to become our doctors, our academics, our business leaders and that's part of the whole problem - we'll never know the missed opportunities. Plus of course all the European staff that work at universities who suddenly find themselves unsure if they'll be staying. Not because there's a fear they'll be kicked out, but simply whether it's worth staying.

 

So I need time to mourn for a future I feel is no longer there. I need time to figure out what the future for our country holds. What my future holds. And I think that's the problem - the Leave campaign never set out what the future was. It was a campaign predicated on the past.

 

As I mentioned previously, I'm also worried that this is bringing out the worst in some people. It's become accepted to be outright hostile and racist right now. Whether it's a passing thing boosted by the vote I'm not sure, but it's definitely real and present. And it's not just Europeans that are being told they should go home (and I mean that literally, people in public are saying those things) but anyone that doesn't look like what people think "our" people should look like. BAME people that have lived their whole lives in this country and reporting being told they should go back to their own. Even though this is their country.

 

The person I mentioned yesterday was told he "better make friends quick, you're going to need sponsorship soon" by a colleague yesterday. What the fuck kind of thing is that to say? The almost gleeful underpinning that "we're going to kick you out soon!" It's vile. It's not a country I want to be part of frankly.

 

I worry about how the rise in populism parties such as UKIP will have a negative affect on anyone that isn't a straight white male. The party has no shame in being openly racist, homophobic and sexist. Their leader has called for privatisation of the NHS, claimed smoking isn't bad for your health and wants weakened gun laws. I had a brief thought of "well now that their aim has been achieved maybe they'll bugger off" before the horrible dawning realisation about what's next - all immigrants. They say they're fine with immigration if its kept in check, but they'll narrow this down. Suddenly the only people they'll be happy to accept in are those with the deep pockets.

 

And yeah that petition to have a second referendum won't amount to anything, but it gives a voice (and let's not forget Farage said if it was 52/48 to Remain there should be a second vote). It's a way of expressing dismay. And should we be surprised about the dismay? Since the announcement we've had:

 

• The Leave campaign saying they won't be spending that £350m a week on the NHS
  
• The Leave campaign saying they won't be able to control immigration
  
• Boris saying there's no rush to leave the EU suddenly
  
• The very real prospect of having an unelected PM
  
• The possibility that the Calais migrant camp will be moved to Dover
  
• Companies already looking to move themselves and/or their employees abroad
  

 

Never mind people voting Remain being upset, I'm surprised more Leave voters aren't pissed off. It's been a day and a lot of people may well be finding that what they are voting for won't be happening.

 

We have people that voted Leave saying they didn't think it would count, that they regret their vote. We have that guy on Channel 4 news saying he voted leave "because of the immigrants. The European ones are okay but we need to get rid of the rest". We have people in the Daily Mail and Sun comments section expressing dismay that there are negative effects (increased bills, travel expenses etc) to leaving. We have Cornwall stating that they should continue to receive the same amount of financial support as before seemingly completely unaware that they've just voted against that.

 

There are reasons for leaving and there are people who voted knowing these reasons, but it seems that the fact this was built on lies and mistruths is unravelling far more quickly than anyone could have predicted. It almost feels like a lot of people read the two choices not as Remain or Leave, but "give Dave a thumbs up" or "give Dave the finger" because a lot of people seemed to have been voting for the latter.

 

Both camps didn't explain the whole situation and what was on the ballot paper doesn't seem to be what was voted for. Large parts of the electorate were not given the correct information they needed to make this decision. They've been let down by our politicians. And now we have to deal with that as a country, but it's a country that has become fractured because of the campaign.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Ashley

[Choze]

Why is it ok for the EU to have it's way in the negotiations but not the UK? Why is it the UK the villain for leaving, and supposedly obstructing trade and wanting favourable trade terms, when it was the EU that formed this exclusive and highly conditional trade club in the first place, which reaches beyond the field of trade into general politics?

 

This is kind of funny and sad at the same time.

[MoogleViper]

when it was the EU that formed this exclusive and highly conditional trade club in the first place

 

You're right. If only the UK had had a say in those conditions when the EU was formed.

[Choze]

This may turn into a ramble. I'm trying to collect my thoughts still, something I've not really been able to achieve since yesterday.

 

I appreciate you writing that up. You covered so much in there and quite well too. People underestimate the emotional impact it will have on younger people's futures and the future of the country.

[Eddage]

So you're saying because of the context you can think more of one cause for independance and less of the other?

 

There's a huge difference! We chose to join the EU. We were one of the major players in the EU so had a good say in rules and laws that were made. We elected an MEP to represent us. The huge majority of laws we followed in this country were made by our government, only around 7% (could be 9% can't remember of the top of my head) of our laws were made by the EU and a fair few of them were to do with the environment/air/water pollution which is something that can't really be tackled properly independently.

 

Now consider the colonies... Did they choose to be ruled by us? Did they have a say in their laws? Could they vote to leave?

 

To compare the two is absolutely ludicrous. We were part of a democracy, perhaps not an ideal one admittedly, but still a democracy, not ruled over with no say on matters and no way out without violence.

[Blade]

@Ashley

 

Couldn't put it better myself. Great post!!

[Eenuh]

Great post @Ashley, sums up my thoughts exactly.

 

I'm still very upset about all this, and if I had the option of moving countries, I probably would (darn you Jim for not speaking Dutch :P ).

It doesn't help at all seeing Leave voters say they regret it now and that they didn't think their protest vote would count for anything... it just proves that this country was not ready for this referendum, with most of the people not sure what exactly they were voting for and what was at stake.

 

Now we will have to move on and hope that everything will turn out okay. Hopefully the other member states will be willing to set up some decent trade deals etc., though this will take years.

 

Hoping people will take note of all that's happened and remember this for the next general election and vote for change (though not with UKIP, thank you very much).

[pratty]

You're right. If only the UK had had a say in those conditions when the EU was formed.

 

Well I thought it was clear I was speaking of Britain and the EU as seperate entities as they're soon to be, there's no need for the snark but yes you're not wrong to point out that Britain had it's hand in setting it up.

 

So to clarify then, I think the nature of the EU is as much of an obstruction to trade as the desire of today's Britain to leave it.

 

And many of us who voted to leave now weren't repsonsible for how the EU was formed back then, so I'm personally not backtracking on a prior stance even if the country as a whole appears to be.