EU Referendum - In/Out?

pratty · July 5, 2016

Most of those rights in the link pertain to specifically to the EU, and require EU membership for them to have any meaning, it would be strange for example to still have the right to "vote for and stand as a candidate in European Parliament and municipal elections," if you were no longer an EU citizen.

I do appreciate that you feel you have had an opportunity taken away from you. Though I feel right may be too strong a word, to me it applies something more fundamental and personal, I think it is more fitting to say you have had privileges revoked. Of course I would never expect a government to refer to a privilege as anything other than a right.

I do think people who really believe in and want to live under the EU that badly should consider emigrating to an EU country while they can and see about gaining citizenship there. I'm all for people living how they want to (to a fair extent obviously) and being happy, despite all the flowery talk of unity and togetherness, this is the beauty of separation and having different independant nations, it creates more scope for diverse living options, people who want different things can live seperately in different houses, cities, counties, countries, unions etc, without always infringing on each other.

I suppose ultimately it is democracy that decides who should leave, if they can't bear living under the direction of the given majoirty. It sucks to be on the wrong end of democracy but we know that's a possibility everytime we vote and we're happy to champion the system when our cause wins. Few things are set in stone though, people now have the choice to stay and campaign for the Britain they want (including re-entry into the EU at some point), or leave for the EU, I don't blame people doing either.

Edited July 5, 2016 by pratty

pratty · July 5, 2016

Most of those rights in the link pertain to specifically to the EU, and require EU membership for them to have any meaning, it would be strange for example to still have the right to "vote for and stand as a candidate in European Parliament and municipal elections," if you were no longer an EU citizen.

I do appreciate that you feel you have had an opportunity taken away from you. Though I feel right may be too strong a word, to me it applies something more fundamental and personal, I think it is more fitting to say you have had privileges revoked. Of course I would never expect a government to refer to a privilege as anything other than a right.

I do think people who really believe in and want to live under the EU that badly should consider emigrating to an EU country while they can and see about gaining citizenship there. I'm all for people living how they want to (to a fair extent obviously) and being happy, despite all the flowery talk of unity and togetherness, this is the beauty of separation and having different independant nations, it creates more scope for diverse living options, people who want different things can live seperately in different houses, cities, counties, countries, unions etc, without always infringing on each other.

I suppose ultimately it is democracy that decides who should leave, if they can't bear living under the direction of the given majoirty. It sucks to be on the wrong end of democracy but we know that's a possibility everytime we vote and we're happy to champion the system when our cause wins. Few things are set in stone though, people now have the choice to stay and campaign for the Britain they want (including re-entry into the EU at some point), or leave for the EU, I don't blame people doing either.

Edited July 5, 2016 by pratty

Ashley · July 5, 2016

Most of those rights in the link pertain to specifically to the EU, and require EU membership for them to have any meaning, it would be strange for example to still have the right to "vote for and stand as a candidate in European Parliament and municipal elections," if you were no longer an EU citizen.

Oh yeah I get that, it's just weird having the EU citizenship (and all that comes with it) taken away. It's something that's always been there. It's something that has affected my life and it's going (somewhat...depends on the next few years). And as I've mentioned before (I believe), I feel as much an EU citizen as I do a British one. In the same way I identify with (and dislike) my home town and region alongside my national one, I identify with being an European.

I do appreciate that you feel you have had an opportunity taken away from you. Though I feel right may be too strong a word, to me it applies something more fundamental and personal, I think it is more fitting to say you have had privileges revoked. Of course I would never expect a government to refer to a privilege as anything other than a right.

It's a weird thing that is obviously wider than this issue but what rights you get depends where you were born, which is completely beyond your control. It's...bizarre. I can't find a better way to say that because its late.

I do think people who really believe in and want to live under the EU that badly should consider emigrating to an EU country while they can and see about gaining citizenship there. I'm all for people living how they want to (to a fair extent obviously) and being happy, despite all the flowery talk of unity and togetherness, this is the beauty of separation and having different independant nations, it creates more scope for diverse living options, people who want different things can live seperately in different houses, cities, counties, countries, unions etc, without always infringing on each other.

Oh don't worry, I'm considering it. On the one hand I don't want to have to leave as I have roots here, but then a number of my friends are considering moving (either UK nationals or EU ones) so how firm those roots will stay remains to be seen. I'm going to wait to see how things play out before making a decision, but I could see myself moving for the sake of keeping hold of that part of my identity.

Ideally this whole mess would be undone but I'm not holding on to an expectation of that. A nice alternative would be to be able to buy a membership but then I do not expect that at all (would be nice to have an 'opt-in' system but the logistic implications would be a nightmare). Outside of that I'm looking at moving abroad (although did joke propose to an Italian the other day so maybe that). Oh and my father's side of the family are Scottish so we'll see what happens up there

I suppose ultimately it is democracy that decides who should leave, if they can't bear living under the direction of the given majoirty. It sucks to be on the wrong end of democracy but we know that's a possibility everytime we vote and we're happy to champion the system when our cause wins. Few things are set in stone though, people now have the choice to stay and campaign for the Britain they want (including re-entry into the EU at some point), or leave for the EU, I don't blame people doing either.

I've been on the wrong end of democracy most times so I'm used to that, but there's a huge difference between being able to think "well we'll see what happens in 4-5 years" and feeling like it might be decades before this could possibly change (on the assumption we leave and re-join, rather than the leaving plans are halted). Plus I imagine if there was a drive to re-join it would be without the unique privileges/position we had previously (e.g. not using the Euro) that makes it a more difficult sell.

But as that post I linked to (that started this) says, it's not undemocratic to question/challenge the referendum result and I shall continue to do that.

I guess it doesn't help is that in the short term we have at least two months of nothingness while we wait for a new Tory leader to do anything. Then we have years of uncertainty while we go through the process. And depending on what happens (do we push for a EEA, complete split etc) more years of uncertainty. I'm too much of a planner to sit here and just see what happens.

Anyway, I'm about to buy something from an American retailer and cursing this country right now :heh: Actually it's listed in dollars but localised to Euros so this gets worse and worse! :heh:

Edited July 5, 2016 by Ashley

Ashley · July 5, 2016

Most of those rights in the link pertain to specifically to the EU, and require EU membership for them to have any meaning, it would be strange for example to still have the right to "vote for and stand as a candidate in European Parliament and municipal elections," if you were no longer an EU citizen.

Oh yeah I get that, it's just weird having the EU citizenship (and all that comes with it) taken away. It's something that's always been there. It's something that has affected my life and it's going (somewhat...depends on the next few years). And as I've mentioned before (I believe), I feel as much an EU citizen as I do a British one. In the same way I identify with (and dislike) my home town and region alongside my national one, I identify with being an European.

I do appreciate that you feel you have had an opportunity taken away from you. Though I feel right may be too strong a word, to me it applies something more fundamental and personal, I think it is more fitting to say you have had privileges revoked. Of course I would never expect a government to refer to a privilege as anything other than a right.

It's a weird thing that is obviously wider than this issue but what rights you get depends where you were born, which is completely beyond your control. It's...bizarre. I can't find a better way to say that because its late.

I do think people who really believe in and want to live under the EU that badly should consider emigrating to an EU country while they can and see about gaining citizenship there. I'm all for people living how they want to (to a fair extent obviously) and being happy, despite all the flowery talk of unity and togetherness, this is the beauty of separation and having different independant nations, it creates more scope for diverse living options, people who want different things can live seperately in different houses, cities, counties, countries, unions etc, without always infringing on each other.

Oh don't worry, I'm considering it. On the one hand I don't want to have to leave as I have roots here, but then a number of my friends are considering moving (either UK nationals or EU ones) so how firm those roots will stay remains to be seen. I'm going to wait to see how things play out before making a decision, but I could see myself moving for the sake of keeping hold of that part of my identity.

Ideally this whole mess would be undone but I'm not holding on to an expectation of that. A nice alternative would be to be able to buy a membership but then I do not expect that at all (would be nice to have an 'opt-in' system but the logistic implications would be a nightmare). Outside of that I'm looking at moving abroad (although did joke propose to an Italian the other day so maybe that). Oh and my father's side of the family are Scottish so we'll see what happens up there

I suppose ultimately it is democracy that decides who should leave, if they can't bear living under the direction of the given majoirty. It sucks to be on the wrong end of democracy but we know that's a possibility everytime we vote and we're happy to champion the system when our cause wins. Few things are set in stone though, people now have the choice to stay and campaign for the Britain they want (including re-entry into the EU at some point), or leave for the EU, I don't blame people doing either.

I've been on the wrong end of democracy most times so I'm used to that, but there's a huge difference between being able to think "well we'll see what happens in 4-5 years" and feeling like it might be decades before this could possibly change (on the assumption we leave and re-join, rather than the leaving plans are halted). Plus I imagine if there was a drive to re-join it would be without the unique privileges/position we had previously (e.g. not using the Euro) that makes it a more difficult sell.

But as that post I linked to (that started this) says, it's not undemocratic to question/challenge the referendum result and I shall continue to do that.

I guess it doesn't help is that in the short term we have at least two months of nothingness while we wait for a new Tory leader to do anything. Then we have years of uncertainty while we go through the process. And depending on what happens (do we push for a EEA, complete split etc) more years of uncertainty. I'm too much of a planner to sit here and just see what happens.

Anyway, I'm about to buy something from an American retailer and cursing this country right now :heh: Actually it's listed in dollars but localised to Euros so this gets worse and worse! :heh:

Edited July 5, 2016 by Ashley

pratty · July 5, 2016

Oh yeah I get that, it's just weird having the EU citizenship (and all that comes with it) taken away. It's something that's always been there. It's something that has affected my life and it's going (somewhat...depends on the next few years). And as I've mentioned before (I believe), I feel as much an EU citizen as I do a British one. In the same way I identify with (and dislike) my home town and region alongside my national one, I identify with being an European.

you know i've never thought of myself as a European citizen, only a British one, though I feel somewhat European as it's the closest continent and and i suppose we're no less a part of it than any other European island.

I think this shows to me my how I see the EU, I'm all for cooperation and whatnot with our european neighbours (not just those in the EU), I just don't think a larger Euope wide political Union is a good idea. The ideal size of a nation itself is abitrary but i think with it's naturally defined watery borders the British Isles are a good size.

It's a weird thing that is obviously wider than this issue but what rights you get depends where you were born, which is completely beyond your control. It's...bizarre. I can't find a better way to say that because its late.

Yeah it is a lottery, I think the realiy of it is life and the world isn't as equal as we'd like it to be. Although the concepts of 'fair' and 'equal' is a double edged discussion for another time.

Whatever decision you make as to whether to stay or leave I hope it's the right one for you.

pratty · July 5, 2016

Oh yeah I get that, it's just weird having the EU citizenship (and all that comes with it) taken away. It's something that's always been there. It's something that has affected my life and it's going (somewhat...depends on the next few years). And as I've mentioned before (I believe), I feel as much an EU citizen as I do a British one. In the same way I identify with (and dislike) my home town and region alongside my national one, I identify with being an European.

you know i've never thought of myself as a European citizen, only a British one, though I feel somewhat European as it's the closest continent and and i suppose we're no less a part of it than any other European island.

I think this shows to me my how I see the EU, I'm all for cooperation and whatnot with our european neighbours (not just those in the EU), I just don't think a larger Euope wide political Union is a good idea. The ideal size of a nation itself is abitrary but i think with it's naturally defined watery borders the British Isles are a good size.

It's a weird thing that is obviously wider than this issue but what rights you get depends where you were born, which is completely beyond your control. It's...bizarre. I can't find a better way to say that because its late.

Yeah it is a lottery, I think the realiy of it is life and the world isn't as equal as we'd like it to be. Although the concepts of 'fair' and 'equal' is a double edged discussion for another time.

Whatever decision you make as to whether to stay or leave I hope it's the right one for you.

Ashley · July 5, 2016

I've long considered borders (and thus nations) to be bizarre and man-made. The fact we can't consistently define it just makes it seem kind of pointless.

Plus we're suddenly concerned about our borders but we're less concerned about others when we invaded them :heh: (I know, different time).

Ashley · July 5, 2016

I've long considered borders (and thus nations) to be bizarre and man-made. The fact we can't consistently define it just makes it seem kind of pointless.

Plus we're suddenly concerned about our borders but we're less concerned about others when we invaded them :heh: (I know, different time).

pratty · July 6, 2016

I've long considered borders (and thus nations) to be bizarre and man-made.

I actually have a lot of sympathy with this, the idea that we should be born free to roam the entire planet as any other creature. But I think if we were to put this into practice then we also have to be free of governments and laws, because like borders laws are also man-made, often arbitrary, and forced onto you by someone else from the moment you were born.

pratty · July 6, 2016

I've long considered borders (and thus nations) to be bizarre and man-made.

I actually have a lot of sympathy with this, the idea that we should be born free to roam the entire planet as any other creature. But I think if we were to put this into practice then we also have to be free of governments and laws, because like borders laws are also man-made, often arbitrary, and forced onto you by someone else from the moment you were born.

Agent Gibbs · July 6, 2016

Rather unfortunately encountered some post brexit racism in Leeds city centre yesterday night!

We have these information officers that wander the streets in suits with yellow ties and bowler hats - they are meant to give information about locations and history of the city to non native leeds people (foreign or domestic), which was part of the Leeds bid to be European capital of culture in 2020 (I think that's off now..)

Well I'm walking down Albion Street towards the Trinity Centre when I became aware of one of these officers 'talking' to some slightly scruffy looking cross between Roy Cropper and a football hooligan (looked like a hooligan but had an old person shopping bag).

When I say I became 'aware' its because I noticed a raised voice, so I slowed down to look over - the scruffy bloke was getting in the poor guys face, shouting at him "you're not from leeds with that voice! why don't you go back to your own country! fuck off stealing our jobs and claiming off the government! you don't belong here....."

I wasn't the only one who'd notice and this little rat obviously began to feel the eyes of people watching and scurried off towards the Headrow, I approached the info officer to see what had gone on;

The guy was Portuguese, called Tito, he had been helping some tourists when this wanker heard his foreign sounding accent and approached him to berate him once the tourists had gone. Tito had been here 5 months, he spoke 4 languages and was working in this role because of it (to you know help tourists....) he wasn't on benefits and keep reeling this off to me as he was obviously quite shaken by this, it was thankfully his first experience of such racism.

I had a good chat with him to let him know we aren't all racist and to try and not to take any of it to heart.

I was so angry on this guys behalf, this bigot felt comfortable enough in our society to shout at a public servant in the streets and be openly racist, to make assumptions that he was somehow steeling a job from someone local (whilst ignoring the nature of his job and the requirement to speak other languages), some how think he was also claiming benefits and just generally be the ass hat stereotypical leave voter that the media is suggesting is on the rise.

Agent Gibbs · July 6, 2016