Posted August 21, 2015 That's what I expect it'll be able to do, but it won't be standard across the board. Though the console will be a turbo charged version of the handheld in terms of CPU/GPU specs etc, it'll still be a different piece of hardware with different controls; so it'll still get unique games that can't be replicated on the handheld and vice versa (you certainly wouldn't be able to replicate something like Wii Party U, Nintendo Land or Splatoon as they are on a handheld because of the unique controls/screen setup they use for instance). Fair enough, but why would they have different controls? Assuming the GamePad is only supported via backwards compatibility, surely both handheld and console would have: * One screen * A, B, X, Y, L1, L2, R1, R2 * Dual analogue sticks The only thing I could think of that might be different about the controls is analogue triggers for the console (and maybe not the handheld) and perhaps clickable analogue sticks for the console. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Fair enough, but why would they have different controls? Assuming the GamePad is only supported via backwards compatibility, surely both handheld and console would have: * One screen * A, B, X, Y, L1, L2, R1, R2 * Dual analogue sticks The only thing I could think of that might be different about the controls is analogue triggers for the console (and maybe not the handheld) and perhaps clickable analogue sticks for the console. Motion controls work differently on console vs handheld. Even ignoring the extremely likely support for Wii Remotes/Nunchucks/Balance Board (it is just Bluetooth after all) which can't be replicated on a handheld, you've also got the fact that moving a handheld also moves the screens that you are viewing; whereas on a console, moving the controller does not move the TV screen - plus the two screen setup is completely different between console and handheld in general as well, due to the screens being joint on a handheld and detached on console. Then there are screen size/possible resolution differences between the NX Gamepad and the NX handheld to account for as well; so touch controls would work differently there too. Not to mention anything new that the NX handheld/console would bring to the table as well. Plus multiplayer works totally differently too. You couldn't take a console multiplayer game and shove it into a handheld, because you'd have to code in wireless LAN support and design it differently (even for single screen games like Smash - look at how Smash Wii U and Smash 3DS differ in their design for instance) Edited August 21, 2015 by Dcubed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 It has some nice uses, but I'm over it personally. I struggle going back. It just feels so more intuitive with menus, huds etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 That's what I expect it'll be able to do, but it won't be standard across the board. Though the console will be a turbo charged version of the handheld in terms of CPU/GPU specs etc, it'll still be a different piece of hardware with different controls; so it'll still get unique games that can't be replicated on the handheld and vice versa (you certainly wouldn't be able to replicate something like Wii Party U, Nintendo Land or Splatoon as they are on a handheld because of the unique controls/screen setup they use for instance). Those games sure, but if they were designed with a handheld AND home console in consideration it's quite doable. At least I can't think of an instance where the switch wouldn't be possible. Ok as you say, not as they are, but it wouldn't be an awful lot of coding, the game just needs to know what hardware it is being run on (or even better the hardware interprets key coding correctly so from a software development point of view it is seamless). It could also explain 3rd party enthusiasm. Design a game for the leading portable with the advantage of having designed a game for a home console. One piece of software, 2 consoles designed for. I struggle going back. It just feels so more intuitive with menus, huds etc. I would have said that about the wii-mote last gen, not anymore. It's just as hard going back as it is going forward, just going backward lacks the new experience part so isn't as enjoyable. I wouldn't mind with or without a screen. If the price is low enough it could be fine to keep the screen. Surely using the same screens for the XL variant of their portable and the gamepad, should keep costs down, right? Then there are screen size/possible resolution differences between the NX Gamepad and the NX handheld to account for as well; so touch controls would work differently there too. Not to mention anything new that the NX handheld/console would bring to the table as well. Plus multiplayer works totally differently too. You couldn't take a console multiplayer game and shove it into a handheld, because you'd have to code in wireless LAN support and design it differently (even for single screen games like Smash - look at how Smash Wii U and Smash 3DS differ in their design for instance) Presumably Nintendo would be smart enough to have screen resolution the same between gamepad and handheld??? at least for ONE of the screens! Again, if the games are designed with both in mind, it would be a case of having either standard handling differences between the handheld/home console hardwired in, or coding standard work arounds for most situations. Switching local multiplayer from multiple controllers to multiple consoles shouldn't be a huge issue if games are programmed with the switch in mind. I know it's a bit more complicated but if Nintendo do this well (and it pays them to do so) the switch should be easy to do. While they are perhaps not top of the online game, they do have SOME experience in the field, so the technical issues should be easily overcome... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 I struggle going back. It just feels so more intuitive with menus, huds etc. Next time you're explaining your love for the GamePad can you use a reason other than menus, huds and off-screen? It's all I've ever seen you use and personally 1) I find it nice to be able to take a breather to do the menu stuff 2) HUDs work better on the TV when it is a well designed HUD (ie the information is relevant and needs to be seen, rather than just clutter) and off-TV has no need with my current set up (but I know others do find it useful). Each their own and the screen was a nice experiment but I'd happily never use it again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 You know what I WOULD like the screen to be used for in the NX? The system menu. When you are in game, without pausing, even if you are online, be able to see the friends list, browse miiverse WHILE playing the game, use that phone app type thing WHILE playing the game. Actually, if it is really clever, be able to identify simply games that you can run in the background... so 1 player plays on the tv with the traditional controller while a different player plays a different game altogether on the gamepad with it's own screen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 I can multitask like all get out, but even so I find playing a game and trying to do something like at the same time counter-productive. I quite like how it is on the PS4 (and maybe One) where the menu feels more like just a temporary overlay because it's quite easy to hop in and out. Yeah there's room for improvements, but I don't think putting it on a separate screen is necessarily an answer. Really how well could you browse Miiverse and play a game at the same time as it would require you to not only be looking at two separate screens, but also be doing two different things. Do you do the same kind of thing with a two monitor setup? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 hmm..is that not why you have multiple screens, to do multiple things at the same time? When I only do one thing at a time the other two get switched off!! Gaming is a bit more demanding, but I wouldn't be against half typing out a post, playing solidly 3 minutes, then finish the post, quickly check friends list, play a bit more, see someone is online etc. In fact I often post on here while I'm playing a game on the Wii U. I am a 1 console gamer though so I am ignorant of the other consoles... how do they work exactly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2015 hmm..is that not why you have multiple screens, to do multiple things at the same time? When I only do one thing at a time the other two get switched off!! Gaming is a bit more demanding, but I wouldn't be against half typing out a post, playing solidly 3 minutes, then finish the post, quickly check friends list, play a bit more, see someone is online etc. In fact I often post on here while I'm playing a game on the Wii U. I am a 1 console gamer though so I am ignorant of the other consoles... how do they work exactly? Well even when I'm working on two (or three sometimes) screens my focus is on one with the others just being used to have a bigger canvas essentially (or sometimes to split work - so I'll be doing some creative work on one and some internet stuff on another). At work I don't make changes to the software and respond to emails at the same time (mostly because one keyboard can't type in two places)! Better notifications are needed for Wii U (and all consoles in fairness) so you can see when people come online, send messages etc. Small popup overlays are fine, but I don't think you need a whole different screen for it. Obviously some games its easier to multitask than others because of a slower pace, more cutscenes etc. I tried to find a video to capture the smoothness of switching between game and menu but couldn't (most videos are focused on one or the other). It's essentially just a combo of good UX and good enough power under the hood that you can press the PS button (forget it's actual name) and the console menu flicks up, do what you need to do and press it twice more to return to the game. It's not like it's some magical process or anything, but it's just well designed and implemented. It feels more like hopping between tabs in a browser than changing applications...if that makes any sense. Probably not. I'm tired. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Next time you're explaining your love for the GamePad can you use a reason other than menus, huds and off-screen? It's all I've ever seen you use and personally 1) I find it nice to be able to take a breather to do the menu stuff 2) HUDs work better on the TV when it is a well designed HUD (ie the information is relevant and needs to be seen, rather than just clutter) and off-TV has no need with my current set up (but I know others do find it useful). Each their own and the screen was a nice experiment but I'd happily never use it again. Personally, I have about ten games I want to make which would all use excellent use of the gamepad. I want the gamepad come back, albeit in a more sleek, ergonomic and functional form. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Personally, I have about ten games I want to make which would all use excellent use of the gamepad. I want the gamepad come back, albeit in a more sleek, ergonomic and functional form. Functional? Try pressing that b-button without having to seriously adjust your hand position. I wouldn't even blink twice if Nintendo ditched the whole GamePad thing. It hasn't worked and the bigger games on the system don't really make any meaningful use out of it. They'll probably keep it, though. If they do, I hope they make more use out of it next time than they have now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Don't get me wrong, the GamePad could be used in some really great ways. We've had a few of those, some more decent uses and mostly just uses for usage sake. Ultimately though it feels like for whatever reason it will never live up to its full potential to provide new gaming experiences (rather than easier gaming experiences through off-tv/maps etc) and unless Nintendo has some great ideas on how it can be used going forward I don't want to go through another five years of having this seldom-used screen in the middle of my controller. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Functional? Try pressing that b-button without having to seriously adjust your hand position. Do it every day. Zero difficulties. Why do I get the feeling you play with your right hand resting on the right stick? EDIT: Ignore me. Phone didn't load the picture. Thought you were talking about the actual Gamepad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) You know what I WOULD like the screen to be used for in the NX?The system menu. When you are in game, without pausing, even if you are online, be able to see the friends list, browse miiverse WHILE playing the game, use that phone app type thing WHILE playing the game. Actually, if it is really clever, be able to identify simply games that you can run in the background... so 1 player plays on the tv with the traditional controller while a different player plays a different game altogether on the gamepad with it's own screen. That's something I've always wanted to see happen with Virtual Console. The ability for the console to run multiple VC games at the same time, so that for instance I could be playing a SNES game on the Gamepad, while someone else plays an N64 game on the TV. I mean, with consoles using multiple cores now it shouldn't be too difficult to do really. Emulators for these old systems have to run off only one CPU core anyway, since these games for old systems can't be made to run across multiple cores in parallel; meaning that the other cores are currently just being left idle. Why not make use of the other cores that are sitting there unloved and have them run a different game independently from the others? Hell as long as the NX's OS supports this sort of independant CPU core processing, it should even be possible to do that with the current Wii U VC emulators without having to really rewrite them at all in theory! I mean, I'm not exactly an expert on programming, so I might just be spouting total BS, but I don't see why it wouldn't work Oh and for those continuing to state how the Gamepad has not brought anything new to the table, what games have you guys actually played? Cause there are actually quite a few games that make great use of it in driving fundamental aspects of gameplay, despite the popular narrative... All of the following games could not be replicated by a traditional controller without completely changing the game's design... Nintendo Land Game & Wario Splatoon Kirby & The Rainbow Curse Wii Fit U Affordable Space Adventures Captain Toad Art Academy Atelier Mario Party 10 Wii Party U Wii Sports Club Mario & Sonic at the Sochi Winter Olympics (yeah, not a great game, but it still counts!) Dr Luigi (Germ Buster) New Super Mario Bros U (Boost Mode) Super Mario 3D World (Gamepad Specific stages) Pikmin 3 (multi-character control) ZombiU (which was indeed re-designed for other consoles) Rayman Legends (see ZombiU) Mario VS DK Tipping Stars (sure you could remove the full stage view from the TV, but it would be a much lesser game because of it) And upcoming... Runbow Starfox Zero Super Mario Maker Zelda U Project Zero: The Maiden of Black Water Animal Crossing Amiibo Party That's not counting the ones with nice Gamepad features that significantly enhance the game either, like Hyrule Warriors (that uses the Gamepad's screen to do co-op; removing the need to split the screen), Pokken (which will no doubt use the same setup as Hyrule Warriors, as that is the setup which the arcade version uses), Wind Waker HD (Gamepad inventory), Resident Evil Revelations (onscreen inventory and map), Smash Bros for Wii U (Stage Builder - though why on earth it is only used for that is beyond me!), Mario Tennis Ultra Smash (dual perspectives, the player on the top side of the court gets their own behind the character view on the Gamepad), Xenoblade Chronicles X (onscreen map, online info feed, party status etc) or SMT X FE (mobile phone feed, live social links etc). The reason why this narrative spread is because Nintendo's 2013 E3 video focused primarily on "safe" sequels like Mario Kart 8, DKCTF and Smash - games which were never destined to make much use of the Gamepad. Doesn't mean that there weren't games that have made good use of it, just that the second wave of Gamepad driven games has come too late. Edited August 22, 2015 by Dcubed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Oh and for those continuing to state how the Gamepad has not brought anything new to the table, what games have you guys actually played? Cause there are actually quite a few games that make great use of it in driving fundamental aspects of gameplay, despite the popular narrative... All of the following games could not be replicated by a traditional controller without completely changing the game's design... Nintendo Land Game & Wario Splatoon Kirby & The Rainbow Curse Wii Fit U Affordable Space Adventures Captain Toad Art Academy Atelier Mario Party 10 Wii Party U Wii Sports Club Mario & Sonic at the Sochi Winter Olympics (yeah, not a great game, but it still counts!) Dr Luigi (Germ Buster) New Super Mario Bros U (Boost Mode) Super Mario 3D World (Gamepad Specific stages) Pikmin 3 (multi-character control) ZombiU (which was indeed re-designed for other consoles) Rayman Legends (see ZombiU) Mario VS DK Tipping Stars (sure you could remove the full stage view from the TV, but it would be a much lesser game because of it) And upcoming... Runbow Starfox Zero Super Mario Maker Zelda U Project Zero: The Maiden of Black Water Animal Crossing Amiibo Party That's not counting the ones with nice Gamepad features that significantly enhance the game either, like Hyrule Warriors (that uses the Gamepad's screen to do co-op; removing the need to split the screen), Pokken (which will no doubt use the same setup as Hyrule Warriors, as that is the setup which the arcade version uses), Wind Waker HD (Gamepad inventory), Resident Evil Revelations (onscreen inventory and map), Xenoblade Chronicles X (onscreen map, online info feed, party status etc) or SMT X FE (mobile phone feed, live social links etc). Sorry I'm not trying to say it's not brought anything new, but rather new games have been made because that possibility is there but are they exciting new things that have some impact on gaming? Not that every game should, obviously, but I can't think of any GamePad uses where I've thought "wow, this is really groundbreaking and hopefully will lead to more of this". Of that list four (by my count) aren't part of pre-existing franchises, suggesting that games are being made to use the features of the console (as you'd expect) but not because a need for these games existed prior to the Wii U. In my opinion if you're hitching your apple wagon to a particular star you should make sure that star is worth it. The GamePad has been a neat little thing for one generation but unless they find better uses for it I don't think it needs to go on for another. Some of the features you mention as significantly enhancing the game experience are possible on other consoles with their second screen mechanisms that use existing technology. It's nice, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it needs to be an integral part of a console's underlying structure. It's like VR in a way - it's a neat thing and will have some cool possibilities but I don't expect the next generation of consoles to make it an integral part of their structure. Hell just like at the Kinect and Xbox One. Just because something is neat and has some good uses doesn't mean it should be integral to the console itself. (and we all know Rayman Legends was better on other consoles ) (also not sure why I keep using the word 'neat') Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) Of that list four (by my count) aren't part of pre-existing franchises, suggesting that games are being made to use the features of the console (as you'd expect) but not because a need for these games existed prior to the Wii U. Your points are fair enough, but this one seems a bit disingenuous... A game doesn't have to be a new IP to be representative of a need to exist, especially in this day and age where the stakes are higher than ever before. If you took Splatoon and had Mario characters in it instead, would it no longer be a new gameplay concept? Likewise, something like Kirby Power Paintbrush/Kirby & the Rainbow Curse could just as well have been a new IP, before it was given a lick of Kirby paint. Some of the features you mention as significantly enhancing the game experience are possible on other consoles with their second screen mechanisms that use existing technology. Not really. The lag alone would utterly kill the experience stone cold dead; it's the lag free nature of the Gamepad, alongside its controls, that separates it from competing tech. It's nice, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it needs to be an integral part of a console's underlying structure. Perhaps, but it may also be said that we haven't really had a chance to see its full potential yet. It may not even be until NX that we really get to see what you can do with this twin screen setup (especially if it does end up getting support for 2-4 Gamepads/NX Handheld screens - something that the Wii U can't really do right now). Hell I still think that there's loads of untapped potential still left with the Wii Remote and Nunchuck as well. So I was really glad to see them keep support going with it on Wii U (even if Mario Party 10 is the only game in the last year to really make good use of it). Edited August 22, 2015 by Dcubed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Your points are fair enough, but this one seems a bit disingenuous... A game doesn't have to be a new IP to be representative of a need to exist, especially in this day and age where the stakes are higher than ever before. If you took Splatoon and had Mario characters in it instead, would it no longer be a new gameplay concept? Likewise, something like Kirby Power Paintbrush/Kirby & the Rainbow Curse could just as well have been a new IP, before it was given a lick of Kirby paint. Not really. The lag alone would utterly kill the experience stone cold dead; it's the lag free nature of the Gamepad, alongside its controls, that separates it from competing tech. Perhaps, but it may also be said that we haven't really had a chance to see its full potential yet. It may not even be until NX that we really get to see what you can do with this twin screen setup (especially if it does end up getting support for 2-4 Gamepads/NX Handheld screens - something that the Wii U can't really do right now). Hell I still think that there's loads of untapped potential still left with the Wii Remote and Nunchuck as well. So I was really glad to see them keep support going with it on Wii U (even if Mario Party 10 is the only game in the last year to really make good use of it). [quickly prattled response before heading out] I suppose its different ways of looking at it. To me it feels more like Nintendo has been saying "okay so how are we going to use the GamePad in this generation's Kirby, Mario Kart (horn, lol), Smash etc?" I've not used the second screen too much so I might be wrong, but when I have used it I can't say I've noticed any game-killing lag. But as I said, limited experience so feel free to disregard me If it does take them what, 8 years (including their R&D time) to come up with great uses of the GamePad is that really not a cause for concern? If they wanted to include it in the first place the ideas and execution should have come earlier. Sure, some initial ideas will have been shit, but so far it's mostly been played safe and I think that's a huge misfire. Also, whatever happened to having a second GamePad? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Now I've read (parts of) the patent, it sounds like a download-only machine rather than one that uses cartridges. I'm surprised that the main controller is described as having a screen though (in addition to the console outputting to a TV, ie. not just a handheld with its own screen). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 I also hope they keep the game pad, but as someone said it should be optional (OK, that would be tricky, as if you make games which only play with the gamepad people will be pissed off, and if you make it optional on all games, why would someone spend money on it instead of buying a new game; maybe if the bundle it with some games). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Can we pleeeease just get the GC controller back? Fix the C-Stick and add a second ZL button and you're golden. It's the most comfortable controller I've ever used by far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 You know I was thinking, could this just be a Wii U lite? The lack of disc support meaning it's got reasonable internal memory instead? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 I've seen a few people suggesting it might just be the Wii U version of the Wiini. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 22, 2015 Art Academy Atelier Ok you got me to Google this. Thought it was an Art Academy spin off of the Atelier series. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 23, 2015 (edited) I always hate it when Nintendo announce their next gen consoles/handhelds so early. It always just starts making me feel like I just want their current ones to be over already so we can get a fresh start on something new and stops me from really looking forward to anything coming out on their current consoles. So annoying, especially when there isn't any real info to go off and they keep doing this as well! Project Reality anyone? (1993 that was announced! 3 full years before the N64 actually launched!) Dolphin was 1999 (2 years prior to release), Revolution was 2004 (2 years before release). Mind you though, Wii U wasn't actually announced as Project Cafe, that was leaked in the same year as it was announced (E3 2011 - 1 year before it was released) so that actually bucked the trend! It's kind of weird how they don't usually announce handheld console development far in advance, but they do with consoles (well, except for Project Atlantis, but that never actually came out in its planned form; it ended up being shelved for almost half a decade before it became the GBA!) I suppose that doesn't apply to NX though since it's effectively an announcement for both. I do reckon that we will probably end up seeing both console and handheld announced at the same time, to really drive the shared ecosystem message home even if they don't actually get released at the same time. Edited August 23, 2015 by Dcubed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 23, 2015 Given Nintendo's misgivings with other consoles I just find myself wondering how they'll annoy me with this one. Party Chat is what I'm guessing, I just think they'll leave it out again and I don't see them making any ground with online. I'm not looking forward to their next console... I've never felt like that before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
