Pestneb Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I'm not entirely sure what controls there are... but accelerator, brake, steering, gear up, gear down, headlights, fog lights? do they have users use a virtual clutch?? accelerate. footbrake. handbrake. gear up. gear down. headlights toggle on/off. foglights on/off. left analogue steering. If they want a clutch fine. I see a need for 8 inputs so far... there are 2 shoulders on each joy con as I can see, so 4 total(someone seemed to say there was only one earlier?), 8 face buttons (ignoring home, share - and +) and 2 analogue sticks. afaik PS4 and XB1 have... 4 shoulder buttons, 8 face buttons (counting dpad as 4 face buttons) and 2 analogue sticks. So I'm kinda baffled on the input. I'm not totally familiar with all the specifics, the only thing I can imagine is if there are no analogue shoulder pads, I could understand them not then wanting to have either 100% on/off braking or accelerating. But surely the gyro could be used to a degree... press R2 and you accelerate, gyro relates the strength of that acceleration, press L2 and it relates braking. If you really want to brake and accelerate simultaneously... well that tends to be messy anyway. Maybe it would be better having the joy cons separated in that instance As far as tabletop = 1 joycon... sure for a muppet. You simply take your switch with two joycons... pull out the kickstand and remove both joycons. I don't understand how there would be a problem here... I can see why they would prefer analogue shoulders though, quicker to port things over satisfactorily. But as said, if the switch does well the effort will become worth it. Right now I can see why it isn't.
dazzybee Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Speaking of which, I really REALLY hope we get one of these on Switch! The single player was absolutely amazing. Yep. I'm hoping that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and possibly some extra DLC is enough for Mario Kart on switch, I'd be happy with that; and they move onto another Diddy Kong Adventure racing game!
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I'm not entirely sure what controls there are... but accelerator, brake, steering, gear up, gear down, headlights, fog lights? do they have users use a virtual clutch?? accelerate. footbrake. handbrake. gear up. gear down. headlights toggle on/off. foglights on/off. left analogue steering. If they want a clutch fine. I see a need for 8 inputs so far... there are 2 shoulders on each joy con as I can see, so 4 total(someone seemed to say there was only one earlier?), 8 face buttons (ignoring home, share - and +) and 2 analogue sticks. afaik PS4 and XB1 have... 4 shoulder buttons, 8 face buttons (counting dpad as 4 face buttons) and 2 analogue sticks. So I'm kinda baffled on the input. I'm not totally familiar with all the specifics, the only thing I can imagine is if there are no analogue shoulder pads, I could understand them not then wanting to have either 100% on/off braking or accelerating. But surely the gyro could be used to a degree... press R2 and you accelerate, gyro relates the strength of that acceleration, press L2 and it relates braking. If you really want to brake and accelerate simultaneously... well that tends to be messy anyway. Maybe it would be better having the joy cons separated in that instance As far as tabletop = 1 joycon... sure for a muppet. You simply take your switch with two joycons... pull out the kickstand and remove both joycons. I don't understand how there would be a problem here... I can see why they would prefer analogue shoulders though, quicker to port things over satisfactorily. But as said, if the switch does well the effort will become worth it. Right now I can see why it isn't. Again, imagine holding a joy con in each hand separately, and think about having quick access to all the buttons in a comfortable manner. It's just not ideal (I'm familiar with racing games, I say this with a heap of experience). The sturdiness and weight of a controller (or even with two joy cons inside a grip) go a long way to replicating the feel of a steering wheel. I don't know why this has become such an issue, as games like Dirt aren't going to make people run to the Switch anyway. I would much rather see unique games that fully utilise the Joy Con's as opposed to games that would be better off elsewhere.
Pestneb Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Again, imagine holding a joy con in each hand separately, and think about having quick access to all the buttons in a comfortable manner. It's just not ideal (I'm familiar with racing games, I say this with a heap of experience). The sturdiness and weight of a controller (or even with two joy cons inside a grip) go a long way to replicating the feel of a steering wheel. See I was thinking of the joy cons as a game pad.. not like MK wii motion steering wheel. I've never held a joycon, but a wiimote for the face buttons, and a nunchuck for analogue sticks, they feel fine. As long as the joycons allow me to grip them as securely as the wiimote and nunchuck both did, I don't see myself having issues getting quick access to all the buttons. But you have put another item on my "before I buy a switch" checklist - how do the joycons feel in my hands when separated from the main unit. in terms of a steering wheel type experience, I'd be kinda pissed off if I was in a plane and the passenger next to me was holding a steering wheel for a few hours of the flight to play their racing game... that experience is surely one for the home, no? Personally I would want a wider range of games, because I tend to be a one console gamer. I want unique and fun games for the switch, but I also want a reasonable amount of other games. I'm not buying a second console for 3/4 games. Edited January 29, 2017 by Pestneb
Ashley Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Okay maybe some visualisation will help... Imagine you're holding a Pro Controller. Your hands are fixed on the horizontal axis - you cannot move your hands closer together or further apart from each other because of the controller. With Joy-Cons detached you can, and similarly you can move them independently on the vertical axis. It may seem like nothing in isolation, but with the speed and frequency of button inputs for a game like Dirt the more physical instability the Joy-Cons introduce the more diminished your ability to move around accurately. Suddenly shifting your thumb to steer moves your hand a bit too, immediately altering your balance. It may seem like a minor thing once or twice, but in a high-intense situation there is going to be a greater increase in these kind of balance-throwing movements. I think that's what Goron is getting at.
bob Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Okay maybe some visualisation will help... Imagine you're holding a Pro Controller. Your hands are fixed on the horizontal axis - you cannot move your hands closer together or further apart from each other because of the controller. With Joy-Cons detached you can, and similarly you can move them independently on the vertical axis. It may seem like nothing in isolation, but with the speed and frequency of button inputs for a game like Dirt the more physical instability the Joy-Cons introduce the more diminished your ability to move around accurately. Suddenly shifting your thumb to steer moves your hand a bit too, immediately altering your balance. It may seem like a minor thing once or twice, but in a high-intense situation there is going to be a greater increase in these kind of balance-throwing movements. I think that's what Goron is getting at. Surely that'll mean you are just worse at the game - it's not game breaking.
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Okay maybe some visualisation will help... Imagine you're holding a Pro Controller. Your hands are fixed on the horizontal axis - you cannot move your hands closer together or further apart from each other because of the controller. With Joy-Cons detached you can, and similarly you can move them independently on the vertical axis. It may seem like nothing in isolation, but with the speed and frequency of button inputs for a game like Dirt the more physical instability the Joy-Cons introduce the more diminished your ability to move around accurately. Suddenly shifting your thumb to steer moves your hand a bit too, immediately altering your balance. It may seem like a minor thing once or twice, but in a high-intense situation there is going to be a greater increase in these kind of balance-throwing movements. I think that's what Goron is getting at. Yeah, basically this. You can't replicate the stability of a steering wheel with 2 joy con's. Clearly you're a better wordsmith than I am. That's why you're the judge and I'm the law talking guy.
Ronnie Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 And given a small minority of players will likely play in that configuration, I don't understand why it would stop a dev from making a racing game. Personally I found having my hands apart extremely confortable with the Wii remote and nunchuck. I imagine it'll be the same thing here.
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 And given a small minority of players will likely play in that configuration, I don't understand why it would stop a dev from making a racing game.Personally I found having my hands apart extremely confortable with the Wii remote and nunchuck. I imagine it'll be the same thing here. Again, which sim were you playing on? Because I don't recall there being any on Wii? 'A small number of players will play in that configuration'. How do you know the percentage of players playing at home versus tabletop mode? The thing isn't even out yet - you should give these statistics to developers Ronnie, do you actually play games like Dirt, Formula 1, Forza etc?
Ashley Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Surely that'll mean you are just worse at the game - it's not game breaking. Oh yeah sure, but the question becomes - should you release a game that you know will be worse in a certain mode? Is that fair? It's all a big unknown at the moment anyway. It's unknown if games have to support all three modes (I believe? Unless its one of the few things Nintendo has said recently). It's unknown what % of players would use that mode (exclusively and in combination with others). I don't think it would stop a game like DIRT on a technical level, it's just whether it would stop devs from approaching it from a perceptual level ('should we bother given that...'). And Ronnie, I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be uncomfortable, just impractical. Is it not one of the reasons Nintendo released 100* GameCube adaptors when Smash came out, because they knew the Wii Remote/Nunchuck setup wasn't as accurate or preferable for 'serious' players. *stock estimate based on general availability
Pestneb Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 do you actually play games like Dirt, Formula 1, Forza etc? I haven't personally played them in depth. Would you be able to describe maybe a typical sequence of gamepad inputs required? I'm thinking maybe entering a corner or maybe a chicane might require the a fairly large amount of inputs and convey to an extent the intricacies that I am completely missing here! Unless the point was steering wheel > any gamepad? And Ronnie, I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be uncomfortable, just impractical. Is it not one of the reasons Nintendo released 100* GameCube adaptors when Smash came out, because they knew the Wii Remote/Nunchuck setup wasn't as accurate or preferable for 'serious' players. was that not for the Wii U? the Wii originally natively supported GC controllers.... And the Wii U has the procontroller. I think the issue with wiimotes was motion controls not being as precise. Allegedly the Switch tech is a step up from motion plus, so presumable a level of greater accuracy mitigates that to some extent...
bob Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Oh yeah sure, but the question becomes - should you release a game that you know will be worse in a certain mode? Is that fair? It's all a big unknown at the moment anyway. It's unknown if games have to support all three modes (I believe? Unless its one of the few things Nintendo has said recently). It's unknown what % of players would use that mode (exclusively and in combination with others). I don't think it would stop a game like DIRT on a technical level, it's just whether it would stop devs from approaching it from a perceptual level ('should we bother given that...'). And Ronnie, I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be uncomfortable, just impractical. Is it not one of the reasons Nintendo released 100* GameCube adaptors when Smash came out, because they knew the Wii Remote/Nunchuck setup wasn't as accurate or preferable for 'serious' players. *stock estimate based on general availability Yeah but the Switch comes with a holder thingy in the box doesn't it? So it's not like there's a barrier to anybody putting their Joy Cons in that.
Ashley Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I know its a specific move, but here's a youtube video with a decent view of the controller in action: (2:19) Yeah but the Switch comes with a holder thingy in the box doesn't it? So it's not like there's a barrier to anybody putting their Joy Cons in that. But it's designed (and advertised) as not needing it when you're out and about. Of course you could carry it with you, like you could carry a bluetooth keyboard with an iPad.
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Yeah but the Switch comes with a holder thingy in the box doesn't it? So it's not like there's a barrier to anybody putting their Joy Cons in that. As I mentioned earlier (and as the developer said), the game would have to be made compatible with someone just wanting to use one joycon because you can't gaurentee that the player will take the grip / pro controller with them. The game would effectively be made redundant if one of these wasn't taken on the go with the player.
Ronnie Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 The game would effectively be made redundant if one of these wasn't taken on the go with the player. The game would be perfectly playable if (arguably) slightly less comfortable. I haven't played the games you mention and I'm perfectly happy to admit to being wrong in the future, but as of now I think you're overstating the issue.
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 The game would be perfectly playable if (arguably) slightly less comfortable. I haven't played the games you mention and I'm perfectly happy to admit to being wrong in the future, but as of now I think you're overstating the issue. Do you drive a car? Imagine if: -Your steering wheel was detached from the car. The gear stick was removed from the car. -You were then given each to control with one hand only. And now read Ashley's post on the last page. "I'm perfectly happy to admit being wrong in the future". I dunno, you're basically refusing to accept what someone who is super familiar with the games and genre in question is saying, as well as a developer who has dedicated his time and life to making such games
Nicktendo Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Wow, this argument is amazing... The developer is totally in the wrong here. Nobody is forcing anyone to play the game with one joy-con or in table-top mode without the grip or a pro-controller no matter how "awkward" or "uncomfortable" it might be. Funny how you can log onto Steam and see tons of rally games / racing games or Codemasters' games, and all of them support keyboard and mouse controls? But without a gamepad, which isn't the "most basic setup" and which you have to buy at extra expense, the game must be unplayable! Hypocrisy, the dev is talking out his arse. Anyone remotely interested in serious racing games wouldn't dream of playing on one joy-con, and if they had to play on the go, it would be with the joy-cons locked to the screen for comfort and accessibility to buttons. Unless I'm missing something and 2-player split screen rallying is what people actually buy Dirt games for and six buttons and an analogue stick in the tabletop mode just aren't up to the job. He should just come out and admit that the fact the Switch doesn't have analogue triggers is the real reason it would bomb. Ludicrous decision by Nintendo and they are going to miss out on a host of serious racing games for yet another generation.
dazzybee Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Handheld mode would be better than tabletop mode anyway; I mean, you CAN play it in tabletop, but if it's worse then why wouldn't you play it in handheld mode? Doesn't make sense to dismiss it based on what will be the least played way of playing the switch full stop, but ultimately people can choose, isn't that a good thing? Choice? You don't like tabletop mode, don't play it?! I'm sure this conversation is missing specifics because it's not making loads of sense.
Nicktendo Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Handheld mode would be better than tabletop mode anyway; I mean, you CAN play it in tabletop, but if it's worse then why wouldn't you play it in handheld mode? Doesn't make sense to dismiss it based on what will be the least played way of playing the switch full stop, but ultimately people can choose, isn't that a good thing? Choice? You don't like tabletop mode, don't play it?! I'm sure this conversation is missing specifics because it's not making loads of sense. We've spent the past 25 years playing handled games with the controllers attached to they system, yet all of a sudden tabletop mode renders this tried and tested, comfortable method redundant? I'm not buying it. Tabletop mode will likely be great for short bursts of 2-player gaming, but for long solo sessions I can't see it being even remotely popular outside games which use heavy motion control, even then it's not exactly ideal.
Clownferret Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 It's as stupid as saying when in handheld or tablet mode out and about you may not have WiFi and so you can't release any games that require online.
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 We've spent the past 25 years playing handled games with the controllers attached to they system, yet all of a sudden tabletop mode renders this tried and tested, comfortable method redundant? I'm not buying it. Tabletop mode will likely be great for short bursts of 2-player gaming, but for long solo sessions I can't see it being even remotely popular outside games which use heavy motion control, even then it's not exactly ideal. I never said it made it redundant. It just poses a question for the developer - is it worth making it can't be played in a specific way, especially when there are already concessions that need to be made. I'm not asking for an argument here, I want to ask how it is possible. Maybe everytime a player disconnects the joycon's at Dirt is running, a message comes up on screen saying "This game doesn't work in tabletop mode"? Always, there is no way of knowing how popular tabletop mode is versus handheld mode. If it ends up being the most popular way to play then... Handheld mode would be better than tabletop mode anyway; I mean, you CAN play it in tabletop, but if it's worse then why wouldn't you play it in handheld mode? Doesn't make sense to dismiss it based on what will be the least played way of playing the switch full stop, but ultimately people can choose, isn't that a good thing? Choice? You don't like tabletop mode, don't play it?! I'm sure this conversation is missing specifics because it's not making loads of sense. Of course you can play it in handheld mode! That's not the issue as the joycon's are connecting to the screen. It's as stupid as saying when in handheld or tablet mode out and about you may not have WiFi and so you can't release any games that require online. Developers can't release any games that need to be always online. STEEP is an example of this; the game will be modified accordingly.
dazzybee Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I never said it made it redundant. It just poses a question for the developer - is it worth making it can't be played in a specific way, especially when there are already concessions that need to be made. I'm not asking for an argument here, I want to ask how it is possible. Maybe everytime a player disconnects the joycon's at Dirt is running, a message comes up on screen saying "This game doesn't work in tabletop mode"? Always, there is no way of knowing how popular tabletop mode is versus handheld mode. If it ends up being the most popular way to play then... Of course you can play it in handheld mode! That's not the issue as the joycon's are connecting to the screen. Developers can't release any games that need to be always online. STEEP is an example of this; the game will be modified accordingly. Why not just let people decide? You CAN play it in all modes, no problem, if someone doesn't like it in tabletop mode, then don't play it; let people decide. I didn't;t play Smash Bros on the wii with just the wii remote because that really was gimped, but doesn't mean the whole game should be canned. I really think tabeltop mode will barely be used, the only normal usage would be for multiplayer games anyway.
Nicktendo Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I never said it made it redundant. It just poses a question for the developer - is it worth making it can't be played in a specific way, especially when there are already concessions that need to be made. I'm not asking for an argument here, I want to ask how it is possible. Maybe everytime a player disconnects the joycon's at Dirt is running, a message comes up on screen saying "This game doesn't work in tabletop mode? I think it's absolutely worth it. Remember those notifications at the beginning of Wii games "please attach the nunchuck" etc. with the message repeated should it happen to be detatched? People didn't find them too intrusive or annoying, it was simply the standard required to play the game. I don't see how implementing the same here would be a problem. They could even go so far as to include a message like this to avoid any confusion at all: Oh, it seems you have detached the Joy-Cons from your Nintendo Switch system. Please re-attach them to continue playing Dirt 7. Alternatively please press SR on Joy-con 1 to continue playing the game in a nerfed format using one joy-con. This control method is not recommended for players wanting full control over their vehicle. Please press SL on joy-con 1 to continue playing the game in "detached mode". While this mode offers full control over your vehicle, we do not recommend you play the game in this way. This way will likely lead to fatigue and frustration as the required buttons are harder to reach in a timely manner. More information can be found in the Dirt 7 for Nintendo Switch instruction manual. If you would like to switch (haha) off this notification in the future, please press the - button.
Pestneb Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I know its a specific move, but here's a youtube video with a decent view of the controller in action: (2:19) I still don't get why this renders using two joycons in desktop mode redundant... is the point that some people aren't able to input controls that slowly (from what you guys were saying I was imagining something somewhat more complex and frantic somehow) if both hands are holding the joycons independently of each other? it's not like the right hand is needing to access the controls on the left side or vice-versa. It's not like there are inputs that are no longer accessible when the joy cons are separated. Are they actually THAT hard to grip and use when they aren't attached to the grip/main console?
Goron_3 Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I think it's absolutely worth it. Remember those notifications at the beginning of Wii games "please attach the nunchuck" etc. with the message repeated should it happen to be detatched? People didn't find them too intrusive or annoying, it was simply the standard required to play the game. I don't see how implementing the same here would be a problem. They could even go so far as to include a message like this to avoid any confusion at all: I did think that too, but at least with the Wii you knew that the nunchuk was in arms reach. Again, how can the developer guarantee that the grip or PC is there? Do they put on the box that it's only compatible in handheld/home mode? These seem like small questions but they are important to a developer who has to allocate millions of pounds to a project in a difficult environment. Ultimately, the minimum standard of controller input for the Switch is one joy con, but I can't see Dirt working with that and I'm not sure if it's the best use of resources. A better idea would be to make a game like Excitetruck using the joy con instead. I still don't get why this renders using two joycons in desktop mode redundant... is the point that some people aren't able to input controls that slowly (from what you guys were saying I was imagining something somewhat more complex and frantic somehow) if both hands are holding the joycons independently of each other? it's not like the right hand is needing to access the controls on the left side or vice-versa. It's not like there are inputs that are no longer accessible when the joy cons are separated. Are they actually THAT hard to grip and use when they aren't attached to the grip/main console? Ashley's post sums it up nicely but as I mentioned to Ronnie on the top of the page, imagine driving a car where the steering wheel and gearstick were not attached to the car. You need a central sturdy weight. We are kind of going around in circles here. I'm done. Enjoy the Switch.
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