Anti-Gay Westboro Hate Preacher Dies

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

You say that but what's to say that you are correct? What's to say you are right? They have beliefs which they're entitled to, the beliefs themselves don't hurt anyone it's the actions they undertake which do.

 

There's no overriding a "critical" way of thinking, it's just their belief which there is nothing wrong with. It's the actions that are I think are wrong.

 

I've nothing against those that think homosexuality is wrong, in the same way I've no problem with anyone thinking it's fine. For me, I have no problem with homosexuality, some of my family and friends are gay and I've no issue either being so.

Likewise, some of my friends think it's wrong and unnatural and it disgusts them, I've no issue with them thinking that. They don't act out against anyone so why should I? There's no overriding a critical way of thinking, both trains of thought are fine.

 

It's the picketing and preaching that I don't agree with. Everyone should be able to form their own opinions on the matter. Which although difficult for their family, it's still possible, the daughter did.

 

I just think in your sweeping statement that you weren't being as balanced as you tend to be, that's what I meant by what you intend to uphold. You try to be balanced given things you've said on other topics. I just felt this wasn't a balanced view.

 

Yes I realise completely, I agree with him in that, as I've said. I just thought his sweeping statement that anyone I'm the WBC was incapable of reason wasn't fair to say.

 

They have the right to have those beliefs, yes, and I would never force them to change, but I will most certainly challenge those beliefs, because there is no logical grounds for them. As such, it does require some suspension of critical thinking to accept them.

 

Regarding my comment, I don't know what else to say; I've reaffirmed that it was a rhetorical device - I don't actually consider everyone in the WBC incapable of reason. Very few if any people are completely devoid of reason, but how much reason people have varies a lot.

 

I appreciate your high opinion of me, but I don't know if I try to be balanced - first and foremost I try to be rational, critical and sceptical.

[Ville]

Yep. Challenging yes, forcing no. Freedom of speech and freedom of belief, yet everyone under the same (non-religious) law. #TheEnd

[MoogleViper]

because there is no logical grounds for them.

 

I tried to google logical reasons for homophobia, and the only one I found was:

 

Homosexuality inherently deprives a child of either a father or a mother.

 

Not a great one, but was the best I could find. Most were religious based.

[Beast]

I can see what people are saying when it comes to doing it out of revenge but honestly, as I've said, I'd do it more of an educational purpose. It has happened before where a member of the church has left because they had finally opened their eyes, it can happen again.

 

I can also see that some people will think that it would do more damage than good but then ask yourself this: While you can see your mistakes if other people have pointed them out, do you think they can see theirs if we pointed it out? I mean, has there ever been any times when someone has said something to you and you've not really thought another second about it but when it happens to you, you can totally see it straight away? I know this has happened to me. Yes, I hear you all when you say they may be beyond help and they may well be, but would you kick yourself if there was one doubter out there and all it took was one action?

 

I think it's possible for them to open their eyes. Unfortunately, if someone did picket his funeral, I think it'd turn ugly very quick, which is unfortunate because it would miss my point of them doing it entirely.

 

=====

 

As for what has been discussed, I would actually agree with @kav82. I actually have a best friend who is a lesbian and another mate who doesn't agree with gay marriage in a church. They're both friends and see each other almost every week and have been childhood friends, even though they disagree on something that could change lives (well, to them, not to me as everybody knows my views on marriage but that's not for here). Personally, I'm all for same-sex marriage. If girls or guys want to marry the same sex, who am I to be in the way of love?

 

If everybody was exactly the same, the world would be boring! In saying that though, if people had the opinion of it, that's fine but it's when they preach it or try to push that shit and bully other people that pisses me off and this is why I hate Westboro. I dislike them because they preach to everybody but I actually hate them because they're disrespectful to do this at funerals and it actually disgusts me.

[Diageo]

While people have the right to believe whatever they want, you can't say that hateful beliefs are not dangerous. Even if people against homosexuality don't consciously act against it, there are implicit associations that will affect every decision they make. It can induce unconscious behaviours that may affect homosexuals leading to self-fulfilling prophecies or confirmatory bias.

 

While of course you wouldn't force them to change their minds, people should challenge them on it regularly. Just as if someone said they thought that black people were an inferior race, I would hope that the people around that person would challenge that.

 

I tried to google logical reasons for homophobia, and the only one I found was:

 

Homosexuality inherently deprives a child of either a father or a mother.

 

Not a great one, but was the best I could find. Most were religious based.

 

Is it necessary to have both?

 

Recent studies have shown that homosexual parents with adopted children tend to raise them better than the average heterosexual couple as they wait for financial stability and are sure they want a baby. If having a mother or father was more important than other factors this significant difference would be seen in the opposite direction.

[Kav]

While people have the right to believe whatever they want, you can't say that hateful beliefs are not dangerous. Even if people against homosexuality don't consciously act against it, there are implicit associations that will affect every decision they make. It can induce unconscious behaviours that may affect homosexuals leading to self-fulfilling prophecies or confirmatory bias...

 

To the first part, I agree. However, just because someone's belief may find homosexuality wrong/disgusting, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is a hateful belief.

 

As I've said, I know plenty of gay people, family and friends. I have no issue with them and don't in any way hate them... whereas I have said I think it's a natural thing, it does disgust me. Not that someone is gay, I don't mind someone being gay, but for me "ew, you want to put what where?", I find that disgusting.

Now I don't mean offence by this, plenty of things disgust me. I know a guy that likes his girlfriend pissing on him, that disgusts me.

When I'm with a girl I love going down on her and if the mood takes, I will merrily lick her asshole, that disgusts some of my friends.

But there's nothing hateful in any of that disgust.

 

Also, as highlighted, the may do... they also may not.

 

I just don't think we should challenge them unless it's a topic of conversation or if they speak out, act out or preach.

[Diageo]

Well then it's different. You're not finding homosexuality disgusting, you're finding specifically anal penetrative sex disgusting. Don't label that as an entire sexuality as homosexual women don't do that and many homosexual men don't do it either. I assume you find anal sex with women disgusting too?

 

Is that the problem your friend has too because you're labelling it all wrong. Unless you find a person disgusting just because they are attracted to the same sex, then you don't think homosexuality is disgusting.

[Kav]

Well then it's different. You're not finding homosexuality disgusting, you're finding specifically anal penetrative sex disgusting. Don't label that as an entire sexuality as homosexual women don't do that and many homosexual men don't do it either. I assume you find anal sex with women disgusting too?

 

Is that the problem your friend has too because you're labelling it all wrong. Unless you find a person disgusting just because they are attracted to the same sex, then you don't think homosexuality is disgusting.

 

Nope, I'm happy to give anal to a girl. Straight sex anal sex doesn't disgust me.

[Diageo]

Then why the "you wanna put what where?" comment. Surely that's the same thing?

[Zechs Merquise]

So now it's wrong for a man to think of having sex with another man as disgusting?

 

Are the thought police going to be arresting people for having opinions?

[Agent Gibbs]

I know gay men who find the thought of a vagina disgusting, I'd say its quite normal for opposing sexualities to have issues with the opposing sexualities physical copulations, that in its self would not mean the person intrinsically despises the opposing sexuality would it? i think thats the point @kav82 making @Diageo

 

To put it more simply

A straight man/woman may find the thought of having intercourse with another man/woman disgusting, just like a homosexual man/woman may find the thought of having sex with the opposing sex to them disgusting

 

that would not make said person homo or hetro phobic

[Diageo]

So now it's wrong for a man to think of having sex with another man as disgusting?

 

Are the thought police going to be arresting people for having opinions?

 

Eh, who said that mr jump to conclusions?

 

Let's be very clear here people. There's a very large difference between finding homosexuality disgusting and homosexual sex acts disgusting.

 

Finding homosexuality itself as wrong or disgusting is a hateful belief. Finding male on male penetrative anal sex disgusting is not a hateful belief. Please clarify when you make such claims as there is a difference.

 

It's like saying, I find old age disgusting and wrong because you don't like the image of two old people having sex. It doesn't equate.

[MoogleViper]

It's like saying, I find old age disgusting and wrong because you don't like the image of two old people having sex. It doesn't equate.

 

I completely agree.

 

 

Who could possibly hate the thought of having sex with the elderly? Does not compute.

[Zechs Merquise]

Eh, who said that mr jump to conclusions?

 

Let's be very clear here people. There's a very large difference between finding homosexuality disgusting and homosexual sex acts disgusting.

 

Finding homosexuality itself as wrong or disgusting is a hateful belief. Finding male on male penetrative anal sex disgusting is not a hateful belief. Please clarify when you make such claims as there is a difference.

 

It's like saying, I find old age disgusting and wrong because you don't like the image of two old people having sex. It doesn't equate.

 

I disagree. If you have an opinion - for whatever reason - that homosexuality is wrong or disgusting it doesn't make you a hateful or bad person.

 

Going around abusing gay people or bullying people is hateful. Forcing your opinions onto others who don't want to hear them can also be hateful.

 

But I don't for one minute believe that simply holding an opinion makes you hateful. Once you move down this route of effectively demonising the right to hold an opinion it's pretty dangerous.

 

I've once went on a date with a girl who said she couldn't stand old people or children, was she 'hateful'? Not really. She just didn't like them. In the same way some people don't like cats or dogs. Now if you go around attacking old people or gay people (or kicking cats and dogs) that is different.

[Agent Gibbs]

clearly defining things makes the world of difference, i got what was meant but its easy to see how it can be taken wrong

 

but this bastardised English language is probably to blame for most issues these days, as gramer* is always easily forgotten by most people

 

lol Mcbain-thats the joke

 

 

How to word this correctly? hmmm

 

The reason you feel homosexuality is wrong is entirely needed for context and can make you a hateful person.

The above has shown how easy it is to be lumped into a more homophobic context because you've poorly worded your feelings.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Agent Gibbs

[Sheikah]

The very fact you know certain people have homophobic beliefs means they preached it (unless you have the ability to read minds). If people truly had no intention of doing harm with their view, they'd have kept it to themselves. It's like someone hating the Chinese, then going around telling certain friends. What's the point? I can only think it's to find some sort of agreement with the people you tell, or validation of your own beliefs.

[Diageo]

I disagree. If you have an opinion - for whatever reason - that homosexuality is wrong or disgusting it doesn't make you a hateful or bad person.

 

Going around abusing gay people or bullying people is hateful. Forcing your opinions onto others who don't want to hear them can also be hateful.

 

But I don't for one minute believe that simply holding an opinion makes you hateful. Once you move down this route of effectively demonising the right to hold an opinion it's pretty dangerous.

 

I've once went on a date with a girl who said she couldn't stand old people or children, was she 'hateful'? Not really. She just didn't like them. In the same way some people don't like cats or dogs. Now if you go around attacking old people or gay people (or kicking cats and dogs) that is different.

Having a hateful belief doesn't make someone a hateful or bad person. But holding the belief that the attraction someone was born makes them "wrong" or "disgusting" will make you act differently to those people. Maybe not consciously, but you will partake in unconscious behaviours that, if picked up on will make a homosexual uncomfortable. It can affect decisions to hire a homosexual to a workplace, to be friends with someone, to help someone. Implicit associations have a strong effect on quick heuristic decision making and thus is dangerous.

 

Additionally, if you think something is wrong, you think it shouldn't be there, and even if you don't behave in a way that reflects that, saying that you hold that opinion affects people.

[Zechs Merquise]

The very fact you know certain people have homophobic beliefs means they preached it (unless you have the ability to read minds). If people truly had no intention of doing harm with their view, they'd have kept it to themselves. It's like someone hating the Chinese, then going around telling certain friends. What's the point? I can only think it's to find some sort of agreement with the people you tell, or validation of your own beliefs.

 

Preaching your views and discussing them are two very different things. If you preach and force your views upon those who don't want to listen you are clearly going out of your way to engage those who don't want to be engaged.

 

If others seek to discuss views you don't agree with and share them with those who want to listen it's their right.

 

The problem with people like you, is whilst you claim to be 'progressive' and 'liberal', what you really are is just a mirror image of what you claim to be against.

 

Whilst you are happy to preach the rights of one group of people and their right to expression, you would happily silence another.

 

Having a hateful belief doesn't make someone a hateful or bad person. But holding the belief that the attraction someone was born makes them "wrong" or "disgusting" will make you act differently to those people. Maybe not consciously, but you will partake in unconscious behaviours that, if picked up on will make a homosexual uncomfortable. It can affect decisions to hire a homosexual to a workplace, to be friends with someone, to help someone. Implicit associations have a strong effect on quick heuristic decision making and thus is dangerous.

 

Additionally, if you think something is wrong, you think it shouldn't be there, and even if you don't behave in a way that reflects that, saying that you hold that opinion affects people.

 

So what if it makes someone uncomfortable?

 

What if a homosexual makes some who doesn't like homosexuals uncomfortable?

 

What you're essentially saying is that if you agree with something and want to express yourself, if that makes others uncomfortable then they should live it, after all it is 2014.

 

But if someone holds a belief that you find uncomfortable, they should under no circumstances ever admit to that belief as you should never be made to feel uncomfortable!

 

The fact is, people will always have differences. If people can't accept that some other people will think differently and have diametrically opposed views then it's going to be a hard life for them.

 

You probably also believe that it is right that the wedding cake makers were taken to court for not wanting to make a gay couple a wedding cake. I find that abhorrent. If you run a private business in a free market then you should have the right to serve who you wish. After all, it is your business, your money, your investment, your livelihood. If the community then turns on your business because of your treatment of that couple and your company sinks then you should pay the economic price of your actions.

 

It's funny how it's always a free world and freedom of expression until someone expresses something you don't like!

[Sheikah]

The problem with people like you, is whilst you claim to be 'progressive' and 'liberal', what you really are is just a mirror image of what you claim to be against.

 

Actually, the problem here is that you are a bigot (not just in this topic, but throughout many topics on NE), and you don't like that I stand up to you. Many times now I have seen you pass off highly personal and offensive comments in topics as if they were nothing, and I really don't get how you don't have any shame over it. It's all a bit revolting, really.

 

Regarding this issue, I don't agree that it is harmless to hold hateful views, like Diageo said. It would affect the way you treat homosexuals, even if subconsciously, which can easily lead to discrimination.

[Zechs Merquise]

Actually, the problem here is that you are a bigot (not just in this topic, but throughout many topics on NE), and you don't like that I stand up to you. Many times now I have seen you pass off highly personal and offensive comments in topics as if they were nothing, and I really don't get how you don't have any shame over it. It's all a bit revolting, really.

 

Regarding this issue, I don't agree that it is harmless to hold hateful views, like Diageo said. It would affect the way you treat homosexuals, even if subconsciously, which can easily lead to discrimination.

 

But if you wish not to associate with homosexuals or do not want to be around them why should you be forced to? That is your choice.

 

The fact is, it is more important in a free society to have the right to offend others than it is to have the right not to be offended. If gay people have the right not to be offended, then so do Christians or Muslims who might find gay couples offensive. You can't say the right of one person not to be offended is more important than the right of another.

 

So essentially, everyone in a free society should have the right to be what they wish to be - regardless of if that causes offence to another group. If Muslims find it offensive that people drink beer and eat pork, then tough. If feminists find it offensive that some women submit to polygamy or the burka then tough. If Christians find it offensive that gay couples live together, tough. But equally if gay people find it offensive that some people don't like them - then that is also tough.

 

We all do things that others may disagree with and potentially find offensive. But that is our right. Freedom is founded on being about to criticise and being able to take criticism.

 

To stand and suggest that everything you believe is a right and expressing it correct, but anyone being critical or disagreeing is offensive is just nonsense.

 

I don't believe you really stand up to anyone. You do not bother me in the slightest, in fact there are many people on here that can't stand you. Equally there are many people who dislike me. The difference between you and I is that this forum emboldens you. It allows you to express yourself and mock me without rebuke. However here I have to hold my tongue. This is a marked contrast to what would happen in real life if you spoke to me in this manner.

[Sheikah]

It allows you to express yourself and mock me without rebuke. However here I have to hold my tongue. This is a marked contrast to what would happen in real life if you spoke to me in this manner.

 

Nobody here is mocking you. And making threats like that is a total dick move.

[MoogleViper]

The difference between you and I is that this forum emboldens you. It allows you to express yourself and mock me without rebuke. However here I have to hold my tongue. This is a marked contrast to what would happen in real life if you spoke to me in this manner.

 

Don't play the victim card. Whenever somebody challenges you you always drop the "well I'll get banned if I say my opinion" bullshit.

 

And what the hel is that last sentence about? Are you trying to play the big man on an internet forum?

[Kav]

Never mind freedom of speech, some people here want rid of freedom of thought! Haha

 

 

Having a hateful belief doesn't make someone a hateful or bad person. But holding the belief that the attraction someone was born makes them "wrong" or "disgusting" will make you act differently to those people. Maybe not consciously, but you will partake in unconscious behaviours that, if picked up on will make a homosexual uncomfortable. It can affect decisions to hire a homosexual to a workplace, to be friends with someone, to help someone. Implicit associations have a strong effect on quick heuristic decision making and thus is dangerous.

 

Additionally, if you think something is wrong, you think it shouldn't be there, and even if you don't behave in a way that reflects that, saying that you hold that opinion affects people.

 

That's not necessarily true. It's may, but it may not.

 

The two of my friends I was talking about earlier, one gay and one against homosexuality, they're very good friends. The one against homosexuality is a born again christian, he believes that his gay mate will burn in hellfire for doing what he's doing, but he accepts it's who he is and accepts that the gay lad doesn't believe in god, heaven or hell so that doesn't bother him. They get on great and he doesn't treat him differently to any of us.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Kav

[Sheikah]

And what the hel is that last sentence about? Are you trying to play the big man on an internet forum?

 

That's pretty much what I read from it too.

[Kav]

What Zechs has said in this thread isn't bigoted. People hold the right to have opinions. One could argue calling him a bigot is the "big man on the internet" case here.