Ian Watkins Given 35 Years

[Sheikah]

Well given that I'm the one that has experienced prison life, I've a better idea of it than you. If someone chooses death over it then yes, in my mind, they're weak-willed. That's my opinion, just as you say I shouldn't quash yours then you shouldn't quash mine right?

 

No, the problem is that you basically quoted someone else and said 'trust me, it's actually this, and having that opinion just makes you weak-willed', rather than acknowledging that there is no right or wrong answer to this. I found it pretty strange that you would suggest people saying the opposite to you must be doing so because they are weak-willed. Some people may be able to revert to a primal survival-centric state whereas some see living to survive rather than surviving to live as pointless.

 

Also being in prison doesn't mean you're more qualified to have an opinion on this. Unless you were also put on death row or taken out the back and came close to bring shot (earlier description) then you've no idea what's worse, have you? And maybe after 20 years of being in prison your view may change from just surviving for the sake of it?

[Kav]

No, the problem is that you basically quoted someone else and said 'trust me, it's actually this, and having that opinion just makes you weak-willed', rather than acknowledging that there is no right or wrong answer to this. I found it pretty strange that you would suggest people saying the opposite to you must be doing so because they are weak-willed. Some people may be able to revert to a primal survival-centric state whereas some see living to survive rather than surviving to live as pointless.

 

Also being in prison doesn't mean you're more qualified to have an opinion on this. Unless you were also put on death row or taken out the back and came close to bring shot (earlier description) then you've no idea what's worse, have you? And maybe after 20 years of being in prison your view may change from just surviving for the sake of it?

 

I'd rather be killed than read more of your tripe.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Kav

[Sheikah]

It would entirely depend.

 

If I was given a few years, no I wouldn't choose death.

 

If I was given 35 years? I'd certainly consider it. To put that into perspective I'd be 58 by the time that rolled around. That's a long time, things would have drastically changed, could I consider 35 years in a box without seeing family/friends? Perhaps not.

 

I've no idea unless I was faced with the choice today. I think to assume everyone would choose the same choice is crazy.

 

I agree, it would very much depend on the circumstances. If I knew I'd probably spend the rest of my life in prison and be unanimously hated/have no life to come back to if I ever was released at an elderly age then I'd certainly think death might be an easier option. I don't think it's weak-willed to go there.

 

I'd rather be killed tha read more of your tripe.

 

That's because you're weak willed.

 

I'd totes choose prison.

[Kav]

Haha. Belting!

 

I do think those that would choose death are weak willed. That's just my view.

[Sheikah]

That's fair enough. When you put it that way I've no beef with what you're saying, even though I don't agree with it.

[Mokong]

In my view, death. I'd much rather be locked up for life than actually die. Easily!

 

Just a quick question to people too... has anyone here actually been in jail? Now I'm not talking being put in a police cell for being drunk or something, I'm actually talking about prison. Has anyone experienced prison life here?

I have, sure it wasn't for long but we didn't know that would be the case, I came to terms with the possibility that I'd not be getting out for years. It's horrible, it really is, but believe me it's better than death!

 

That's the thing. It's not everything, there are still things you can do, yes you are deprived of a hell of a lot, but you're alive. Trust me, being in prison and being alive is preferable to dying. I don't see how anyone would think otherwise, are you that weak-willed that you couldn't cope? Would you commit suicide before that? That's just crazy talk!

 

 

 

It was in Thailand, under suspicion of drug smuggling. Bangkwang Prison, that's hell... but damn, I'd rather be alive in there than be dead!

 

 

Kav buddy the way you've typed those bolded parts makes it sound/read like you've experience BOTH scenarios... (unless you also have a back from the dead story to tell....)

 

I think maybe what is going on here is a difference in opinions between how people view "death"

 

@kav82, dude can I ask why do you think death is worse than spending a lifetime in prison (regardless of where that prison may be)?

 

Do you have a belief in an afterlife? In a hell? Or is it just the fear of death?

 

Maybe you do, maybe you don't I'm just guessing going by how your post (mainly the bolded parts) reads that you prolly do....no offence intended if I'm wrong

 

I think what people who say to kill him (Ian) would be giving him an "easy way out" more than likely don't believe in an afterlife or hell, once your dead your dead, there is nothing you just cease to be. In such a scenario that does seem like a "easy way out" as the person (in this example, Ian) wouldn't be potentially suffering for 35 years behind bars..... hopefully suffering physically in some way maybe due to being beat up/mistreated by other inmates but hey that's just my own personal hope :p

 

 

I do get what people like Kav are saying though that "lets just kill him and be done with", while 35 years might be a lifetime, if he survives that long he could still potential walk out a free man one day and potentially still be a threat to the innocent (even if he is 70 odd years old).

 

But I myself would be of the mind that I wouldn't want to give him (or anyone) the death sentance, not because I am against it for humanitarian reasons but because I see it also as an "easy way out".

 

Now I don't know the history of how when and why a death sentence first came about in law but I do imagine it likely had religious reasons, ie: lets kill this person we deam evil so that he/she will burn in hell for eternity.

 

I'm not a religious person (though yeah I celebrate Christmas, but not for religious reasons.... but lets not get side tracked here) and I don't believe in heaven or hell so unless you can gaurantee me killing someone like Ian would definately result in him being tortured for an enterity in hellfire I'll stay thinking "a death sentence is a quick release".

 

 

What I will say though, and this will prolly make me seem a bit brutal, is I do think people who are convicted of crimes such as murder and rape should be made suffer as much as possible if it were possible. If I could change laws I'd bring back in whippings or beatings for such people, weekly maybe daily beatings for the lenght of their prison term. Or some sort of torture.

 

One thing I do not get is human rights groups for example getting upset if criminals were mistreated, the way I see it if someone takes away someone elses basic human rights by killing or raping them than that person should be considered to have given up their own basic of human rights to for example not be tortured

 

But hey that's just me, my little twisted opinion, it is not in the legal system, I have no power to change the legal system so I'm not going to get all in a fuss whenever I see someone convicted and keep saying "give him 100 lashes a day with a spikey whip" or similar beating scenarios.

 

 

If this is an issue with the lenght of his sentence, while I would have liked to see him get more time (50 years would have been a good minimum I think) as I understand it 35 is maximum he could be given by law for the charges he was found guilty of (correct me if that is wrong).

 

I have seen people say that for crimes such as these it should be treated like murder so a longer punishment could be given. But I read a very good point (can't remember who or where exactly but I think it was someone on FB) that if for example child sexual abuse had the same max punishments in law as Murder then you could just end up creating a scenario where the numbers of murders following sexual abuse occur increase.

 

eg: If a sex abuser knows punishments for both crimes of sexual abuse and murder are the same, they'd probably be likely to think "well I can't be punished any worse for murder than I would be if I was found out for the sex abuse so may as well be in for a penny in for pound".

 

And that is why there are differing sentences for differing crimes.

[Diageo]

I think vengeance is sadistic and selfish. Expressing your violent hate towards someone else because of what they've done will not reverse their actions and will just increase further suffering. The main goal should be to prevent further crimes, not to fulfil some immediate emotional reaction.

[Kav]

@Mokong X-C that's the weirdest question I have ever been asked. I value my life, I'd not want it to end. I'm a fighter, I'd not give up. That's simply all it boils down to for me. No thoughts on afterlife or anything of the like. I just desire to live.

[Mokong]

It was just the way those parts I bolded read to me that made me think that.

 

I also didn't see the convo that followed between you and Shiekah as it happened while i was typing and I didn't check for new posts after a posted

[jayseven]

@kav82 I wish I had the book still to write up the precise example. I believe it's The Algebraist where there's a character called Luciferous who has beaten a long-time enemy in battle and instead of just killing his opponent, he keeps him alive. Now, this is future/sci-fi tech, but bear with me. Let's call his foe X. X has been beheaded, but his head was placed on an object that feeds the skull all it needs to maintain life. So this head now exists, chained, hanging upside-down from Luciferous's study, in a continuous state of existence. It cannot end its own life. After 25 years, luciferous desides to cut off X's tongue and lips, as to silence it. It also had previously removed X's eyelids. Luciferous essentially uses this human head as a punching bag for years, and years, and years - always careful to stop the abuse before permanent damage is caused. Of course, in this future world, the skull can be supplied with quick-healing solutions so that poor luciferous doesn't have to go too long without an outlet.

 

In this purely hypothetical situation, would you rather be X, or would you rather be dead?

[Sheikah]

@Mokong X-C that's the weirdest question I have ever been asked. I value my life, I'd not want it to end. I'm a fighter, I'd not give up. That's simply all it boils down to for me. No thoughts on afterlife or anything of the like. I just desire to live.

 

He's asking it because you are saying living in any prison for a very long time/life is better than a quick death.

 

To say X is better than Y, you normally need to have experienced both.

[Kav]

He's asking it because you are saying living in any prison for a very long time/life is better than a quick death.

 

To say X is better than Y, you normally need to have experienced both.

 

Normally I'd agree, but not when one option is death.

 

Also, if that's the case, why is it you point it out to only me and not to those saying death would be better? Works both ways from what you're saying.

[Sheikah]

That's not the case, this goes back to the post where you were saying people were wrong and 'how it actually was' when they gave a counter view to yours (and using being in a prison as a reason why your view was correct).

 

I've never said that your view on living over dying is wrong. It's a complicated issue is what I've been saying. It's not that their view has come about for a simplistic reason like you suggested (that being that they are weak-willed).

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Zechs Merquise]

Normally I'd agree, but not when one option is death.

 

Also, if that's the case, why is it you point it out to only me and not to those saying death would be better? Works both ways from what you're saying.

 

Honestly mate, there is zero point arguing with weak people, they can never understand the perspective of the strong because every time they are faced with great challenge they crumble.

 

A good quote would be:

 

"Unfortunately this earth is not a fairy-land, but a struggle for life, perfectly natural and therefore extremely harsh."

 

Those not equipped or ready to struggle and survive might as well take the easy option as they simply accelerate the natural order of things by doing so!

[Ramar]

Zechs and Kav remind me of Paj and Chair. Think the same, post the same, could be the same, probably just lovers.

[Kav]

Zechs and Kav remind me of Paj and Chair. Think the same, post the same, could be the same, probably just lovers.

 

Haha, cheeky git! We have similar views on some things but believe me, it's not across the board.

[Sheikah]

Honestly mate, there is zero point arguing with weak people, they can never understand the perspective of the strong because every time they are faced with great challenge they crumble.

 

A good quote would be:

 

"Unfortunately this earth is not a fairy-land, but a struggle for life, perfectly natural and therefore extremely harsh."

 

Those not equipped or ready to struggle and survive might as well take the easy option as they simply accelerate the natural order of things by doing so!

 

That's rather comical.

 

'There is no point arguing with weak people'

 

You've got to admire when people have such a ridiculously (undeserved) high opinion of themselves.

 

Zechs and Kav remind me of Paj and Chair. Think the same, post the same, could be the same, probably just lovers.

 

For a while I did actually think that, given Kav's tendency to hang off every word he says and thank most of his posts.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Kav]

Any post that makes me laugh gets a thanks. Hell, I thank some of yours @Sheikah

 

But on topics like this one we have a similar view.

[Sheikah]

I get that you often have a similar view, but have you not considered that you are perhaps not universally 'strong people' (physically and mentally)? Maybe some people choose the other option because they have enough courage to choose death, or because they have the foresight to see a life without doing anything with purpose isn't worth living. And frankly it's a bit insulting to call people weak for having an opposing view.

 

I think a big problem on this forum recently (more so with Zechs) has been the inability to talk to people in a decent, inoffensive manner. When you make the point that everyone else should be ignored because they are weak, he just comes across as ignorant and no one listens to him. When you thank him, you're just showing that the ignorance is shared.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Kav]

I get that you often have a similar view, but have you not considered that you are perhaps not universally 'strong people' (physically and mentally). And frankly it's a bit insulting to call people weak for having an opposing view.

 

I think a big problem on this forum recently (more so with Zechs) has been the inability to talk to people in a decent, inoffensive manner. When you make the point that everyone else should be ignored because they are weak, he just comes across as ignorant and no one listens to him. When you thank him, you're just showing that the ignorance is shared.

 

I can appreciate that, but it just made me laugh, I knew thanking it would get me comments back but I just found it funny.

 

I do consider myself to be mentally strong, I've had to be with events that've occurred in my life. I'm not the physically strongest person but I'm confident enough in my physical capabilities to deal with most things that come my way.

 

I only took the harsher tone after it was said that my views were degenerate and barbaric. Whys it fair to people come down with a high and mighty tone on me and me not with them?

Swings and roundabouts.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Kav

[Mr-Paul]

Kav says he should be put to death, death is not the easy option, it's the hard one. Kav is "strong-willed." I don't know how this makes you strong-willed? Because you're willing to want another person to die?

Others say death is the easy way out. We should make them suffer for their crimes. This is "weak-willed." Weak willed to make people suffer? To make them live with the consequences of their actions, to be ridiculed, lonely, deprived? OK then. Seems like this whole strong/weak willed thing is a massive contradiction.

 

You are basing your argument on what you would prefer. It's not down to what you would prefer in this hypothetical situation, it's down to what is a suitable punishment.

 

The death sentence is pure vengeance and can be a deterrent to crime, although the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent can be debated to no end. These statistics suggest US states without the death penalty have a lower rate of murder.

 

A life in prison is a life without liberty. Is a life without liberty better than no life? I say put people in prison to hard work and labour, they're much more useful that way, and can suffer accordingly for their crimes. The death penalty really just offers an eye for an eye, in my opinion. And anyway, many prisoners on death row basically spend a life in prison before being executed.

 

In the case of Ian Watkins, I do hope that he has a terrible time in prison to pay for his disgusting actions, but also hope that our prison system manages to rehabilitate him to be safe to the public when he is finally released, and that it makes him feel remorse for his actions.

[Sheikah]

I only took the harsher tone after it was said that my views were degenerate and barbaric. Whys it fair to people come down with a high and mighty tone on me and me not with them?

Swings and roundabouts.

 

People are just challenging you with scenarios to see whether you truly believe what you said you did under all circumstances (e.g. J7). They're not saying what you believe is categorically wrong and that they have more experience to know better. The beef I had before was purely the way you put across your views (telling people they were wrong and your opinion was the one that was valid due to prison expedience).

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Kav]

@Mr\-Paul you misunderstood my comment on weak-willed. I was saying that I see those that would choose death over the sentence as being weak-willed. That they didn't have the straight to see the sentence through.

[Mr-Paul]

But it's the fact that you and Zechs are making out that your opinion is right and that you are "strong". You are welcome to your opinion, and it is one that many others share with you, but there is no need to act superior because of it.

 

So you are saying it is weak to prefer to die than to see through a life sentence.

So why not give someone the sentence you need to be strong-willed to get through? Isn't that the tougher sentence, and therefore the preferable sentence for the worst offenders?

[Diageo]

I can appreciate that, but it just made me laugh, I knew thanking it would get me comments back but I just found it funny.

 

I do consider myself to be mentally strong, I've had to be with events that've occurred in my life. I'm not the physically strongest person but I'm confident enough in my physical capabilities to deal with most things that come my way.

 

I only took the harsher tone after it was said that my views were degenerate and barbaric. Whys it fair to people come down with a high and mighty tone on me and me not with them?

Swings and roundabouts.

 

The only person that called you a degenerate is you.