Hero-of-Time

Wii U General Discussion

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On 02/03/2021 at 7:41 AM, Helmsly said:

 

 

THE REDEMPTION ARC BEGINS NOW

 

who am I kidding all of these Wii U ports to the Switch is the redemption arc :p

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I was watching this last night, its a long video but only the first half is specifically about the Wii U itself and I feel like he express's everything I felt about the console at the time, but much better then I ever could:

 

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Thanks for that, @Helmsly. I sat and watched it last night.

I do agree with what he said about a lot of the features on Wii U games were simply gimmicks that could have been easily replicated by standard control schemes. As he said, the fact that many of these games have been ported without issue just goes to show how throwaway these kinds of features originally were. It was the same during the Wii era, where waggle was used when a simple press of a button would have done the job just as well, if not better.

The SFZ section was great, as was the comparison with S&P2. Nintendo can sometimes get in their own way. There's nothing wrong with building on a foundation that is already there instead of trying to reinvent the wheel all the time. As he said, a SF game in the style of S&P2 would have worked brilliantly. Shame.

It was also interesting to see that he made SFZ a more comfortable experience by remapping the buttons via emulation. This is why I think it's important for games to allow players to customise their own control setups. Some people can simply adapt, while others prefer to build the control scheme around what they are used to.

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Traditional controllers have been holding back game design for decades.  Heaven forfend that crusty, miserable old gamers allow anything truly new and unique to be made and at least even try to learn something new!

The sooner we move beyond the traditional controller for most games, the better.  The Wii & DS was the best thing to happen to this industry and the entire 3rd party development industry did their utmost to sink those ships to preserve the only thing the know how to do; make the same old games for the 10-25 year old male demographic.

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Just chiming in to say that the dude who made the video is funny :D 

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23 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Traditional controllers have been holding back game design for decades.  Heaven forfend that crusty, miserable old gamers allow anything truly new and unique to be made and at least even try to learn something new!

I feel that’s a very harsh take. It comes down to what’s comfortable. For example, I’ll always prefer control sticks over using gyro/motion controls. I’ve tried numerous times to use such a control scheme but it never clicks with me, even if gyro/motion controls are seen as faster and superior. Again, it’s not about learning new controls but preferring a setup that works.

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of the games during the Wii and Wii U era had features that were there just for the sake of being there. Two games that I played over the last 6 months were ZombiU and DeBlob, both on my PS4. ZombiU didn’t have the Gamepad and De Blob didn’t use motion controls for jumping. Neither of these things were needed for the games and IMO better experiences without them.

With experimental control setups there’s always the chance that they won’t work correctly. Take Skyward Sword for example. I think it was the Matthewmatosis review where he mentioned that having a control scheme in any game that doesn’t do what you want 100% of the time is unacceptable. This is something that doesn’t really happen when pressing a button.

Take a look at how the controller has evolved over the years. Whenever extra buttons, shoulder buttons or analog sticks were added they were largely accepted and became the norm. If it works for the majority of gamers then it will become the standard. Things like motion controls are still seen as a gimmick, although they are still an option in a few games for those who enjoy them. Like everything in this industry, it’s the mass market that dictate where things go and if the masses are happy with a standard controller then that’s how it will stay, for better or worse.

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I find that gyro aiming is perfect for the small adjustments. I guess it comes down to control stick sensitivity, though, but I prefer that combination.

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15 minutes ago, MindFreak said:

I find that gyro aiming is perfect for the small adjustments. I guess it comes down to control stick sensitivity, though, but I prefer that combination.

Gyro controls make me really conscious about keeping the controller steady. Not that I normally pendulum the joypad during play or anything, but knowing that any small wrist adjustment will move the camera is kind of stressful, lol.

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2 minutes ago, darksnowman said:

Gyro controls make me really conscious about keeping the controller steady. Not that I normally pendulum the joypad during play or anything, but knowing that any small wrist adjustment will move the camera is kind of stressful, lol.

That's true, but that depends on the game that you are playing. I don't play many games where motion controls are always on like FPS, and when playing Doom Eternal with motion controls, I moved around so much that it wasn't me moving the controller that made me die. :D 

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Posted (edited)

ZombiU on systems other than Wii U are just fundamentally different games to the Wii U original.  It’s not the same experience at all; even though it is a port of the same game, the gameplay is radically different with its main USP stripped out of it (and I would argue? a much lesser experience for it).


Just because a game can be technically ported, doesn’t mean that the original gameplay experience can be preserved.  Take DKJB on GCN vs Wii; the Wii version is fundamentally a completely different gameplay experience compared to the DK Bongo powered original, and I would never want to play the Wii version instead.  Likewise, 9 Persons, 9 Hours, 9 Doors was completely ruined in its transition from DS to PC/PS4/Vita; as was The World Ends with You when it was ported to Switch.  Likewise, Skyward Sword HD is going to have to be completely gutted when played with button controls (I’m just hoping that the original gameplay gets preserved properly when the motion controls are used).  Even Super Mario Sunshine felt just incredibly awkward and wrong to play when it was first released on Switch (before it thankfully got proper GCN controller support patched back in), because it was designed around the GCN controller’s analog/2 stage L&R triggers; and that’s a relatively minor feature compared to those other examples!

Things like touch screens, motion controls and multi-screen systems are NOT mere gimmicks.  The problem is that Nintendo is basically the only game developer/publisher out there that is genuinely pushing for genuinely new kinds of gameplay experiences.  Everyone else is happy sticking to the status quo, because it’s so much easier to sell your games on lavish production values than on novel gameplay.  And as far as the west goes? most large scale western developers don’t even consider gameplay to be anything more than a tertiary concern, with story/cutscenes/sex & violence and graphics being the main focus of development and the gameplay just being perfunctory enough to get people to engage with the game and buy their microtransactions (indie games are obviously an exception; but they have to be multiplatform and designed for the lowest common denominator in order for their developers to survive - meaning that they can’t be designed around novel control input methods).

When there’s only one major developer/publisher pushing for new experiences? Of course you’re going to get people (both developers and consumers) who refuse to accept anything new.  Meanwhile, the traditional video game industry will carry on contracting as it continuously fails to bring in new audiences.  
 

I barely even play modern games at all anymore because I’m just so utterly bored and tired of the utterly banal status quo.  I used to have a belief that there were people outside Nintendo (and certain indie developers) that were actually interested in pushing gameplay boundaries and making genuinely new & novel experiences; how fucking naive was I!?

Edited by Dcubed

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My main issue with Metroid Prime Trilogy is the gyro controls. You have to hold the controller in an uncomfortable position for a very long time. You can't relax while playing.

If a switch version were to be released, I would love an option to have gyro aiming but only when locking on (a Wii U version where you can change visors/weapons on the touchscreen would have been great)

I feel that's where gyro aiming works the best, in games like Breath of the Wild where you push a button to aim and then the gyro kicks in for fine tuning.

What's especially annoying is when a console does have support for stuff like that, but it isn't used. On PS4, God of War and Horizon would have benefited from gyro assisted aiming (stick for big movement, gyro for small but quick movements). Sony were the first to do it, so it's a shame that it isn't an option in some games.

 

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ZombieU is i think, at this point, with all the ports, the main reason for me to still get a WiiU (at some point). Any other gems that aren't ported?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Sméagol said:

ZombieU is i think, at this point, with all the ports, the main reason for me to still get a WiiU (at some point). Any other gems that aren't ported?

Star Fox Zero, Star Fox Guard, Kirby & The Rainbow Curse, Paper Mario Color Splash, Nintendo Land, Affordable Space Adventures, Project Zero: Maiden of Black Water, Game & Wario (The Gamer portion of G&W was ported to Wario Ware Gold on 3DS mind you), Xenoblade X, Pullblox World, Mario Party 10, Art Academy Atelier, Wii Sports Club, Wii Party U and Wii Fit U are the only remaining Wii U exclusives left now.  Literally everything else has already been ported to Switch or 3DS.

Edited by Dcubed
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Affordable Space Adventure is great if you have family to play with (or local friends when it's safe to do so).

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24 minutes ago, Dcubed said:

Star Fox Zero, Star Fox Guard, Kirby & The Rainbow Curse, Paper Mario Color Splash, Nintendo Land, Affordable Space Adventures, Project Zero: Maiden of Black Water, Game & Wario (The Gamer portion of G&W was ported to Wario Ware Gold on 3DS mind you), Xenoblade X, Pullblox World, Mario Party 10, Art Academy Atelier, Wii Sports Club, Wii Party U and Wii Fit U are the only remaining Wii U exclusives left now.  Literally everything else has already been ported to Switch or 3DS.

Thanks. Most I'm not interested in, but Xenoblade (amongt the other few) is of course another great suggestion.

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4 hours ago, Dcubed said:

I barely even play modern games at all anymore because I’m just so utterly bored and tired of the utterly banal status quo.  I used to have a belief that there were people outside Nintendo (and certain indie developers) that were actually interested in pushing gameplay boundaries and making genuinely new & novel experiences; how fucking naive was I!?

I can see why developers and publishers are wanting to play it safe. The cost of games development just keeps going up and up and so developing games that are tried and tested formulas is the safest way to bring in the money. It’s why we see so many remasters because it’s a quicker and easier process that should bring in a decent return.

I will say though that developers do try different things in their games, it’s just a lot of the time it’s for their own benefit rather than gamers. Season passes, microtransactions, DLC, loot boxes and pay to win mechanics are all evolutions in gaming and do in some ways push gameplay boundaries, it’s just that it does it in a negative way.

You mention Nintendo being creative and yet I think the Switch generation of Nintendo has been their lowest point in terms of software creativity. Ring Fit Adventure is probably the last time they really mixed things up and done something unique. Who would have thought a fitness JRPG would turn out so good? Labo was a fun distraction but it needed fleshing out some more. Paying all that money and having the game only last 4-5 hours was a bit rough.

I think it comes back to what I said at the start in that they are also playing it safe. Following gaming trends, remastered games and using tried and tested IPs seem to be the driving force of the Switch and it has worked wonders for them. The console has been an amazing success and the amount of software being sold is just insane. Depending on how they position/name the Pro, I wouldn’t be surprised if it went on to beat the PS2 as the best selling console of all time. Playing it safe has completely turned the company around.

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14 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

You mention Nintendo being creative and yet I think the Switch generation of Nintendo has been their lowest point in terms of software creativity. Ring Fit Adventure is probably the last time they really mixed things up and done something unique. Who would have thought a fitness JRPG would turn out so good? Labo was a fun distraction but it needed fleshing out some more. Paying all that money and having the game only last 4-5 hours was a bit rough.

You're completely right on this point. We've seen barely any of "Weird Nintendo" this generation.

The Switch might be a sales juggernaut like the Wii, but it lacks the unique experiences the white rectangle sported.

One main reason I feel this is the case is because Ninty have been kinda coasting on WiiU ports. And even then, some of them have had their more unique aspects stripped out.

New Super Mario U Deluxe is a prime example. The main meat of that game is there, but it lacks that node where 1 person used the Gamepad to place blocks and interact with the stage while 4 other people played through the game. It's a port that has had the uniqueness the WiiU brought to the table stripped out. It's the perfect metaphor for the Switch.

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I feel like weird Nintendo kind of ended towards the end of the Wii U, when they seemed to abandon the touchscreen themselves. 

 

Past Nintendo would have had more fun with using Labo and the Ring Con in more games, as silly controls or extra modes, or a crazy game built around all the different control methods. 

 

There's a lot of creativity in VR, a format I'm not very interested in.

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Posted (edited)

"Nintendo isn't weird anymore"

...

feac8cf977b63c388e9cac47971f3dc578-13-mi

I think betwen 1-2 Switch, Labo and Ring Fit there's plenty of weird creativity, especially when you throw in things like Odyssey's possession mechanic or Gooiji :blank:.

The Wii U had wacky games because it had to justify the gamepad/2 screen gaming, that sort of lends itself to creativity. The same with the Wii. The Switch is a much more basic concept but even so I think we've seen enough to say Nintendo haven't lost their weirdness.

Edited by Ronnie

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2 hours ago, Ronnie said:

"Nintendo isn't weird anymore"

...

feac8cf977b63c388e9cac47971f3dc578-13-mi

I think betwen 1-2 Switch, Labo and Ring Fit there's plenty of weird creativity, especially when you throw in things like Odyssey's possession mechanic or Gooiji :blank:.

The Wii U had wacky games because it had to justify the gamepad/2 screen gaming, that sort of lends itself to creativity. The same with the Wii. The Switch is a much more basic concept but even so I think we've seen enough to say Nintendo haven't lost their weirdness.

That's slim pickings compared to previous consoles and you know it.

And if you have to site Gooigi of all things to shore up the numbers, then that speaks volumes.

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I miss games like NES Remix, which was totally born out of needing some quick software. Still hoping on a SNES remix.

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17 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

That's slim pickings compared to previous consoles and you know it.

I know I "know it", I've already suggested that the nature of the console is behind the lower output of craziness, but three titles in 4 years, one of which being a Covid year, doesn't suggest "Nintendo isn't weird anymore". 1-2 Switch by itself is 10x weirder than NES Remix or Nintendo Land.

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On 17/03/2021 at 11:25 AM, Dcubed said:

ZombiU on systems other than Wii U are just fundamentally different games to the Wii U original.  It’s not the same experience at all; even though it is a port of the same game, the gameplay is radically different with its main USP stripped out of it (and I would argue? a much lesser experience for it).

 

Yeah it's all about the amount of effort that went into specific console features, I do think for the most part Wii U games failed to use the GamePad in a novel way, even Nintendo titles, which is why there have been so many great unaltered ports to Switch, but ZombiU is a perfect example of a game that SHOULDN'T be ported. Man, it was such a great and novel experience on WiiU, it was dirt cheap on PS4 so I picked it up and yeah, it genuinely felt like a different and lesser game. 

Sunshine wasn't a probem for me but I appreciate it's better with GameCube controls. I notice it on Tokyo Mirage Sessions, the menus are a whizz to me now that I'm hundreds of hours in, but it was so much easier and pretty cool to have the gamepad for all of those menus and chats between characters. I guess the problem with introducing console exclusive features in games is that they stay like that, console exclusive. If Nintendo were to keep their new and innovative features in place from one system to the next I think people wouldn't mind, but when they reinvent the wheel every generation it makes preserving and enjoying games on a newer system hard and thus I think that is also what puts a lot of devs off fully engaging in console specific functions - it's not just a feature that is exclusive to Nintendo this generation, it's a feature that is exclusive to this Nintendo system forever.

I guess a good thing about the Switch is that dual screen aside, they have tried to preserve their previous innovations like motion controls which allow stuff like Mario Galaxy and Skyward Sword to exist in the modern day but Mario Sunshine is a great example of how confusing Nintendo can be, they introduced this great pressure sensitive R button and then drop it for every console that came after it. When things like that happen it's easy to see why devs don't stray far from the status quo. 

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On 17/03/2021 at 11:47 AM, Cube said:

My main issue with Metroid Prime Trilogy is the gyro controls. You have to hold the controller in an uncomfortable position for a very long time. You can't relax while playing.

If a switch version were to be released, I would love an option to have gyro aiming but only when locking on (a Wii U version where you can change visors/weapons on the touchscreen would have been great)

I feel that's where gyro aiming works the best, in games like Breath of the Wild where you push a button to aim and then the gyro kicks in for fine tuning.

What's especially annoying is when a console does have support for stuff like that, but it isn't used. On PS4, God of War and Horizon would have benefited from gyro assisted aiming (stick for big movement, gyro for small but quick movements). Sony were the first to do it, so it's a shame that it isn't an option in some games.

 

Gyro aiming is wonderful and the reason I play Fortnite on my Switch over Xbox One or PS4, it's technically inferior graphically and has a lower FPS but the gyro controls are just that important to me, it's true that they need to be implemented well though. I feel like I can move my arms freely as one click of a button sets the reticle to the middle of the screen regardless of where you are so you can move about and still enjoy the wonders of gyro, I appreciate not all games are like this and the lack of a good industry standard for gyro aiming is probably what is holding it back.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

That's slim pickings compared to previous consoles and you know it.

And if you have to site Gooigi of all things to shore up the numbers, then that speaks volumes.

Oh and in addition to milking cows, cardboard robot suits to stomp around in and a talking ring accessory you exercise with...

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So yeah, Nintendo are still plenty original or weird. Let's see what the second half of the Switch lifespan brings next, now that its success is assured.

Edited by Ronnie

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