Ronnie Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Give me 3D World's controls (including the run button) over Mario 64's ANY DAY. Just so much more precise.
S.C.G Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Stop being such a wuss! You wussy wuss wuss! There's no shame in using restore points. If anything it makes certain games more interesting, Super Mario 64 in particular, because sometimes you'll go for a particular star and then think 'I don't want to lose this star, but what if I could get the one hundred coin star and THEN get the star I've just discovered?' or when trying to get the trajectory right on the cannons, I'm not going to fire Mario miles above the star only to have to go all the way back to the cannon on foot wasting precious time when I can just reload a restore point then correct the angle slightly. It just makes sense to use them sometimes, especially when it's a game I've fully completed before many times over. : peace: I'll use it in some games which I'm playing for the first time which I feel are either unbalanced or unfair as well, for instance what about that really harsh knock-back in Super Castlevania IV... I quite possibly would have given up on the game in some of the cheaper sections of the game which don't seem to shy away from knocking you down an instant-kill hole every few seconds. Admit it, restore points can sometimes be a useful thing, surely?
dazzybee Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Yeah, I'm playing through the mega man games, and absolutely loving them. I wouldn't love them as much without restore points.
Glen-i Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Admit it, restore points can sometimes be a useful thing, surely? Personally, I see it as cheating and am glad that it acts like a mark of shame on your virtual console menu if you use it. If I make a mistake, then I take that mistake without resorting to mulligans! Suspend saves are more than enough for me on virtual console games. Yeah, I'm playing through the mega man games, and absolutely loving them. I wouldn't love them as much without restore points. You're just as bad, really. I played through Mega Man 2 for the first time on 3DS VC, still didn't use it, despite dying many, MANY times. You lose the sense of punishment a game gives if you can just press a button and go back. The sense of satisfaction you get from overcoming a difficult section of a game is immensely satisfying and you blunt that satisfaction by relying on restore points. I'm not gonna stop you from using it. That would just be pointless, but I maintain that you lose something from using them.
S.C.G Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 OK... I'm fine with Restore Points dividing opinion. Could I have completed Super Mario 64 again without using them? Of course I could, I've finished it legitimately countless times and I still count my last run as being legitimate too. Another example, 100 coins on Rainbow Road, I'm pretty certain you need the blue coin switch in order to get that total, you hit the switch and from that time you have around what feels like seven seconds to perform a wall jump at least four times and run along the platform at the top while fighting against the games camera, if I couldn't retry that part from before hitting the switch then I likely would have just left it. Being that I'm playing a lot of Virtual Console games, mostly to review as well, this saves me some time... so when it's a game I've played before especially and already completed I really don't see the harm, there are still plenty of games I'll be playing which don't have restore points which I have no problems in finishing, so it's not really diminishing my skill level; only my frustration level at annoying parts in games... and only by a small degree. : peace:
Serebii Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) With Metroid games I'm all for having restore points. I have been firmly against that save system. It somewhat works in 2D games, but not in 3D games (they don't have this anyway, which is why I didn't download Trilogy - I have 1 & 2 on GCN anyway), but it's always good to have them if it has been a while since you were at one. Edited April 21, 2015 by Serebii
Fierce_LiNk Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 With Metroid games I'm all for having restore points. I have been firmly against that save system. It somewhat works in 2D games, but not in 3D games (they don't have this anyway, which is why I didn't download Trilogy - I have 1 & 2 on GCN anyway), but it's always good to have them if it has been a while since you were at one. u wot m8? The save system is perfect for its purpose in the Metroid games, both 2D and 3D. I'd love to see you try something like Alien Isolation with that style of save system.
Dcubed Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Suspend Saves are like mana descending from the heavens, while Restore Points are just pure scum and villanry! The former just makes games more convenient and playable (especially for games that have no save feature at all and just expected you to beat it in one sitting or keep your console turned on overnight), while the latter robs a game of its entire design (as well as its all important randomness. Any RNG used in a game is rendered utterly useless by save states - something that NES Remix actually takes advantage of). You might end up justifying it if you simply can't beat a game, but you're still not really playing it. It's ok that it's there (it's the closest thing that you can possibly get to a Super Guide for classic titles), as long as it comes with a Mark of Shame to go along with it And as for Mario 64's controls? I can't really argue that it is much less refined than in later 3D titles, but it also has the most free flowing and momentum based movement mechanics that the series has ever seen. What it lacks in refinement, it arguably more than makes up for with the sheer freedom of movement it offers : peace: Edited April 21, 2015 by Dcubed
S.C.G Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 So long as you've already beaten the game before though, what's the harm? If I'm replaying a game to review it, I already know the game inside-out so it's just to remind myself of how the game plays, I don't feel like using restore points is robbing me of anything; if anything sometimes not using them is merely robbing me of my sanity and patience as some of those stars in Super Mario 64 are frustrating enough. I tell you what... seeing as I haven't played DK64 properly yet from start to finish, when I play that I'll endeavour not to use Restore Points. Deal? : peace:
Dcubed Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Well DK64 isn't really hard anyway (just incredibly tedious), so Restore Points aren't gonna really matter much here So either way, you win here :p Suspend Saves however are INCREDIBLY useful for that game! The levels are massive and trying to get back to where you were after taking a break is a massive time waste Edit: Wait, actually there are the DK Arcade game and Jetpac coin challenges. Those are actually pretty hard... ... and there's also Beaver Bother... Mind you though @S\.C\.G, from a review ethics standpoint, I suppose in a certain sense it actually does make sense for you to make use of the Restore Points. If you're reviewing it as a Wii U product, you really should explore it from the perspective of someone who is new to the game, playing it for the first time on Wii U - which means that you might end up finding yourself gravitating towards using it for various reasons (lack of time, extreme difficulty etc). Ideally, you would do two playthroughs (with and without), but that's just infeasible really; so if you're playing a Wii U VC release (especially if it's not for the first time), making use of the Restore Points is actually the more ethical option as a reviewer ironically enough! : peace: Edited April 21, 2015 by Dcubed
Sheikah Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Restore points for Megaman is just wrong. There goes the challenge.
Dcubed Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Restore points for Megaman is just wrong. There goes the challenge. I agree, but if you're reviewing the Wii U or 3DS VC release, it actually makes perfect sense to make use of them and note the altered experience in your review. Even if you're staunchly against them and are committed to doing a properly stoic run, you would have to at least note how tempting they are to use by just sitting there... It adds a battle of will on top of the war of attrition in your mind...
Sheikah Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Isn't the temptation to use them if you die to quickly clear levels to write your review? I dunno, I have the feeling you might come away with a very different perspective of the game (specifically the Megaman series), and the risk/reward rush you would normally get wouldn't be there. Nah, I'd prefer they took their time to play the game it's meant to be played.
Dcubed Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Isn't the temptation to use them if you die to quickly clear levels to write your review? I dunno, I have the feeling you might come away with a very different perspective of the game (specifically the Megaman series), and the risk/reward rush you would normally get wouldn't be there. Nah, I'd prefer they took their time to play the game it's meant to be played. On the other hand, it's not like there's a lack of reviews out there of these games anyway... Even for the games on the Wii VC, there's plenty of reviews already out there which don't take Restore Points into account. Surely it actually makes more sense to note the experience of using them here, considering that they are features that alter the experience that were not there before? The Wii U VC release and the Wii VC (or the original console for that matter) releases are different products (even though the game itself remains unchanged). If you're not gonna look at the game from a new perspective as it gets re-released on Wii U, then why bother even writing new reviews for these re-releases in the first place? These are more than just the original games being offered here after all. You have the original experience untouched here, but you also have all of these new features added on top that can optionally change the experience. Doesn't make sense to me to re-review these games and not note the new experience that these Wii U VC releases offer Edited April 21, 2015 by Dcubed
Sheikah Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Megaman though, that's something I think of in a similar way to Dark Souls. As in you've got to stay alive for a while, exercising caution and playing skilfully up until you clear the boss. If they put save states in Dark Souls letting you quickly undo falling into a trap, I'd be pretty mortified. I wouldn't be like 'well it's interesting to see how people review it with this new feature compared to the reviews where this feature wasn't there. Some things, just don't fuck with it. Edited April 21, 2015 by Sheikah
S.C.G Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Now see this is interesting, because though I did use restore points for Super Mario 64 I have played it through many times before, so there's the two different runs for that one, even if there's a significant period of time between them... Super Mario 64 is a game I won't forget. With Mega Man however I would try not to use restore points... unless I feel the game is being cheap, the same can be said for other titles too as I said before the knock-back in Super Castlevania IV is criminal at times! So I still like a challenge, therefore I won't use it all the time but if it's a game I've played before and I'm wanting to just explore different possibilities within the game for review purposes or just my own amusement then I think that's fine, also it can be handy if you were trying to get a certain screen-shot for miiverse which I do use for some of my reviews so there's that use for it as well. : peace:
Goron_3 Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) Give me 3D World's controls (including the run button) over Mario 64's ANY DAY. Just so much more precise. The margin for error is considerably higher due to a relaxation on the physics engine and the movements options available to Mario. This doesn't make the controls any more precise, it just eases input window, as Shiekah rightly points out. Momentum conservation and a full physics engine is missing from 3D World but it's designed to be that way to be more accessible and to mimic the physics engine of the Mario Land games. It's also worth remember that the Nintendo higher ups told Miyamoto that Sunshine was too difficult, hence the dumbing down of the movement options and the lengthening of the input window. Again, highly recommend watching that Matthewmatosis video I posted on the last. Really makes you realise how much they got right straight away Edited April 22, 2015 by Goron_3
dazzybee Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 Personally, I see it as cheating and am glad that it acts like a mark of shame on your virtual console menu if you use it. If I make a mistake, then I take that mistake without resorting to mulligans! Suspend saves are more than enough for me on virtual console games. You're just as bad, really. I played through Mega Man 2 for the first time on 3DS VC, still didn't use it, despite dying many, MANY times. You lose the sense of punishment a game gives if you can just press a button and go back. The sense of satisfaction you get from overcoming a difficult section of a game is immensely satisfying and you blunt that satisfaction by relying on restore points. I'm not gonna stop you from using it. That would just be pointless, but I maintain that you lose something from using them. No, because I've finished mega man 2 before, when I was a child hen it first came out. I don't want to die and die and die in games, not my style any more and this allows me to reply them and just enjoy them again, not a chore, not battling archaic systems and design, just enjoying for the amazinh stuff they do. And ultimately doing it quickly, I have a lot of games I want to play through, I'd rather play through mega man 1-6 in 12 hours then half of them in the same time. I find them frustrating, I would stop playing. So it's perfect for how I want to play these games. You get enjoyment from getting through really hard sections and constant deaths. I want to smash the gamepad against the wall. Hope they re-release turtles too. That gsme may be bearable with save states. Ps saying that about deaths. I'm happy to play pikmin 3 missions over and over and over and over until I get platinum.
Dcubed Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) The margin for error is considerably higher due to a relaxation on the physics engine and the movements options available to Mario. This doesn't make the controls any more precise, it just eases input window, as Shiekah right points out. Momentum conservation and a full physics engine is missing from 3D World but it's designed to be that way to be more accessible and to mimic the physics engine of the Mario Land games. It's also worth remember that the Nintendo higher ups told Miyamoto that Sunshine was too difficult, hence the dumbing down of the movement options and the lengthening of the input window. Again, highly recommend watching that Matthewmatosis video I posted on the last. Really makes you realise how much they got right straight away All well said : peace: But it should also be said that the EAD Tokyo titles generally have a different focus. Instead of having the level design being built around the controls, the later 3D Marios take the opposite approach; with the level design taking precedence. They have a much larger focus on gameplay gimmicks and surprising/engaging level design than pushing Mario's core moveset like SM64 and SMS do. That's not a bad thing, it's just different. Having SM64's moveset in SMG would simply be utterly overwhelming and would never gel with the level design at all. Mathewmatosis put it best when he said that each 3D Mario title offered something different that it excelled at (oh and if you haven't watched his reviews yet, you really really should! I don't always agree with what he says, but I do more often than not! ) Edited April 21, 2015 by Dcubed
Wii Posted April 21, 2015 Posted April 21, 2015 The point of computer games is that they're fun. If restore points can make a game more enjoyable or let a person who otherwise might never be able to complete a game to do so, what's the harm? If someone however uses them and tries to pass themselves off as being some sort of gaming expert but not admitting that they've used them then that's a bit sad.
S.C.G Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Meanwhile please look forward to VCW #335 which will contain a review of Metroid: Zero Mission and will be available soon. As promised... VC Weekly #335 : peace:
Dcubed Posted April 22, 2015 Posted April 22, 2015 Great review! : peace: I do think you're underselling it by calling it a remake though, when in reality it's actually basically a completely different game from the NES Metroid. It only loosely shares a few core aspects of the original game's map design (certain rooms, most of the world layout with Brinstar leading into Kraid etc). I always preferred the term "re-telling" myself. I think it's a much better descriptive term for what MZM did for the original Metroid than "remake"; because it really shares very little and deviates massively. It's definately its own thing!
Wii Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Natsume Suggests That Nintendo's Moving Away From SNES on Wii U Virtual Console Explains how games are selected for the Virtual Console Natsume is a publisher and developer that pops up relatively regularly on the current day Virtual Console, certainly more so than some other names that were common on the Wii but have appeared less on the Wii U and 3DS. As such it's a company with some useful insight into how the platform works, and a Q & A by Community Manager 'CeeCee' has a couple of interesting snippets of information. One answer points to a trend that keen Wii U Virtual Console followers will have spotted already - the phasing out of SNES games. A question about the Pocky & Rocky SNES games prompted a suggestion that Nintendo is moving on from the 16-bit system to alternative platforms. At this point, it's unlikely we'll see any other Natsume SNES games coming to the Virtual Console, as Nintendo's interest has moved onto other classic systems. In recent times Nintendo's focus has certainly been on Game Boy Advance, DS and Nintendo 64, so this isn't entirely surprising. The reason that Nintendo's focus matters a great deal, though, is due to its prominent role in third-party classics arriving on the Virtual Console. As is explained, it's the big N that does most of the work, not the original publishers. The titles for Virtual Console are handled by Nintendo. The publisher and Nintendo discuss which classic titles would be a good fit and have the best potential to sell. Once a title is agreed upon, Nintendo and the publisher work together to bring that title to the designated system, with Nintendo doing the bulk of the work. It's an interesting insight into how games come to the Virtual Console, and with the emphasis on Nintendo to make releases happen that does help to explain the slow drip-feed and focus on big-name titles. If Natsume's insight is correct, would you be disappointed to see less and less SNES games on the Wii U Virtual Console this year and beyond? http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2015/04/natsume_suggests_that_nintendos_moving_away_from_snes_on_wii_u_virtual_console
Blade Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Nintendo moving on from the SNES? Who would have thought?
Wii Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Well it did take them 2 generations to move on from the Gamecube and it took them until 2012 to catch up with 2005.
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