Posted November 15, 2016 At first I agreed with the idea of waiting for an unlimited amount of time for the 'perfect game', but actually I agree with @Rummy. I would argue the problems with the last few console Zeldas had nothing to do with time but with ideas. If an idea is flawed, its going to be flawed regardless. The same notion of allowing developers to take as much time as needed was applied to SS - I imagine if they had 5 more years to work on it, we would just get three more repetitive encounters with Demise and three more 'sacred grounds' chase and collect puzzles. They made my favourite Zelda and possibly game of all time in one year! As for when I draw the line, I will always buy a Zelda regardless but if things get drawn out and cock-teasy too much I lose interest and move on, which may in the end affect whether I will day one a game, or wait and just buy it second-hand with Nintendo losing out on their sale. You don't need to squeeze every great idea in the one game - you can save a few and put it in its sequel. I agree that the current order of Zelda games is in shambles and they need to return to the OOT-MM scheduling real quick. One could argue its Nintendo's constant desire to reinvent itself irregularly that has caused this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 15, 2016 Just saw a comment elsewhere pointing out that hardly any of Nintendo's games require huge patches for bug fixing like a lot of other AAA games do. Looking through my Wii U data 3D World, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess have never been patched and so were released in fully working order, and the games that do have patches either add new content (Mario Kart 8's 200cc mode and Smash Bros. new characters and modes) or are tiny patches of 30mb - 300mb to fix bugs, and most of those are on early Wii U titles like New Super Mario Bros U and Nintendo Land. In an age of multi gigabyte day one patches you have to hand it to Nintendo for their dedication to releasing a fully working product. Obviously it should be the norm for games to actually work out of the box and we shouldn't need to thank companies for doing what they're supposed to do, but its refreshing that Nintendo are so committed to quality. The lack of much day 1 DLC, blind Season passes, special editions with in-game perks is also refreshing with Nintendo games. Having said that I think those are just ways of upping the cost of games that's long overdue, without actually upping the cost of games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 Interesting thoughts on the generational leaps previously compared to now @Grazza; hadn't even thought about that. Has been interesting seeing the variance on the acceptability of delays for different folks too! Wind Waker is a 2002 game, but if it came out today in HD I wouldn't be like "huh, did you start this 15-16 years ago?", I can honestly say nothing about it would feel like an old game. Don't you think? When Zelda gets it right, it transcends generational gaps and technological limitations. I could almost say the same for MM if the overworld didn't hold it back a bit. I can't say the same for TP and SS, however. For WW I think I'd actually agree! I haven't played WW much since its original release(tried a replay once or thrice but fallen off) but maybe I'll give it a go this Xmas or something on my WiiU. Thinking about it I certainly can't, off the top of my head, think of anything that'd make it specifically old or out of touch. What makes TP or SS feel old? I know for me TP feels empty, and SS feels repetitive in places, but repetition could also be levelled at Wind Waker when it comes to the triforce charts(though as said I don't mind it). I'm curious as to where they'd go with a sequel. They've already developed the biggest open-world Hyrule, full of different geological locations and weather... how do you do a sequel to that? Majora's Mask did a parallel dimension like formula and mixed up the assets - you can't really take that approach again... I mean, you can, but you'd get called out on it. Other franchises like GTA, Assassins Creed have the advantage of being able to change location when they repeat the formula, Mass Effect can go to different planets. Where as with Zelda you have that same 'Middle Earth' like fantasy landscape, and perhaps that's part of the reason why it's tough to make sequels in the series, and why the likes of Twilight Princess are just telling the same story again. With Zelda, we've done the sea, we've done the sky... in what other ways do you re-use the assets you've built for Breath of the Wild? Yes Link's Awakening did it, but a huge Island habitat to explore could be fun. Or do you take a DLC/Season Pass like approach, and for example, bring Winter to Hyrule. Same Breath of the Wild landscape, but this time the entire kingdom is under a foot of snow, waterfalls and lakes have frozen over, habitats and species are struggling as a result, and there's a new icy big bad in town. Plus who doesn't want to ice skate on a frozen lake in Castle Town. Isn't BotW despite that sort of fantasy middle earth landscape going a bit more futuristic? Not sure how much more room there is for mixing up but that is a kinda difference depending how prominent a feeling it is. Personally I love the idea of more experiments like MM. I can't right now envisage what they'd similarly do with BotW but I haven't seen enough of the game really. The idea of DLC is interesting, but I think it'll rankle too many folks to take off. I like suggestion of a seasonal change and all it brings but the DLC+Zelda just feels like it's gonna leave a bitter taste in many mouths and it won't take off. I would argue the problems with the last few console Zeldas had nothing to do with time but with ideas. If an idea is flawed, its going to be flawed regardless. The same notion of allowing developers to take as much time as needed was applied to SS - I imagine if they had 5 more years to work on it, we would just get three more repetitive encounters with Demise and three more 'sacred grounds' chase and collect puzzles. They made my favourite Zelda and possibly game of all time in one year! As for when I draw the line, I will always buy a Zelda regardless but if things get drawn out and cock-teasy too much I lose interest and move on, which may in the end affect whether I will day one a game, or wait and just buy it second-hand with Nintendo losing out on their sale. You don't need to squeeze every great idea in the one game - you can save a few and put it in its sequel. I agree that the current order of Zelda games is in shambles and they need to return to the OOT-MM scheduling real quick. One could argue its Nintendo's constant desire to reinvent itself irregularly that has caused this. Hmmm. I think in my gut I'm right with you on the first part, but the solution it gives is the same as your end point - release more games/more often/possibly have a main game and an experimental one. It's very possible they already do this and no experiments work out and we don't know of course. The obvious flipside to this is the risk of a franchise fatigue or milking that harms its image. If they're going to keep hitting console boundaries with their releases each title's going to have to be fresh and new though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 What makes TP or SS feel old? I know for me TP feels empty, and SS feels repetitive in places, but repetition could also be levelled at Wind Waker when it comes to the triforce charts(though as said I don't mind it). My biggest gripe with Zelda games has always been the overworlds. Take Twilight Princess for example. You have this bustling castle town with ordinary people, children running around, market stalls etc. But take a step outside the castle walls and you're facing monsters, tree-walls, bottomless pits, rivers to and from nowhere. There's no Hylians using the roads, no sign that the paths go anywhere. Nobody is hanging around in the outskirts of the town. Put that next to an overworld like Skyrim or the Witcher 3 or heck even any of the Fable games and it ages immediately. Wind Waker sidestepped that issue purely by design which makes it timeless IMO. Skyward Sword on the other hand I think shows its age with all that awful nonsense from Fi. It was the product of this bizarre bubble era where Nintendo decided we needed our hand holding all the time to make sure our batteries never died and we didn't forget to stop for lunch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 For WW I think I'd actually agree! I haven't played WW much since its original release(tried a replay once or thrice but fallen off) but maybe I'll give it a go this Xmas or something on my WiiU. Thinking about it I certainly can't, off the top of my head, think of anything that'd make it specifically old or out of touch. What a brilliant and well-built game Wind Waker is! I was enthralled with it at the time, and the Wii U version might even be the first remake I've played that genuinely holds its grandeur so many years later. Personally I love the idea of more experiments like MM. I can't right now envisage what they'd similarly do with BotW but I haven't seen enough of the game really. It's food for thought, certainly. I've always thought, and this is going back as far as I've known Zelda, that it's good to see Hyrule (especially Hyrule Castle) reimagined every generation or two. Each technical leap gave the opportunity for better town design, better overworld design etc. NES - Legend of Zelda/Zelda II SNES - A Link to the Past N64 - Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask GC/Wii - Wind Waker/Twilight Princess/Skyward Sword Wii U/Switch - Breath of the Wild With Breath of the Wild, I think we'll need to see what the consensus is on the game world - whether it's too big or just right. Nintendo could be extra cheeky for a sequel and use the same overworld, just create new dungeons hidden within the various mountains. It sounds cheap, but I'd hate to see them get into another situation where they can't produce a sequel in the same generation. I think a whole new world might be too much work anytime soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 My biggest gripe with Zelda games has always been the overworlds. Take Twilight Princess for example. You have this bustling castle town with ordinary people, children running around, market stalls etc. But take a step outside the castle walls and you're facing monsters, tree-walls, bottomless pits, rivers to and from nowhere. There's no Hylians using the roads, no sign that the paths go anywhere. Nobody is hanging around in the outskirts of the town. Put that next to an overworld like Skyrim or the Witcher 3 or heck even any of the Fable games and it ages immediately. Wind Waker sidestepped that issue purely by design which makes it timeless IMO. Skyward Sword on the other hand I think shows its age with all that awful nonsense from Fi. It was the product of this bizarre bubble era where Nintendo decided we needed our hand holding all the time to make sure our batteries never died and we didn't forget to stop for lunch. Skyward Sword felt old from the get go. The dungeon design was great but the rest of the game was designed so poorly. It was basically one fetch quest after another until you reached a dungeon. Twilight Princess suffered a bit from this too; you could tell that they had probably reached the potential of Zelda on that hardware. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 Funnily enough I would actually disagree on that very specific front, because I really liked the beginning of Skyward Sword and felt like it was full of promise. I loved Skyloft and the town in general, the inhabitants, the character and style of the shops etc and I would say it was the most believably inhabited place in Zelda to date, everyone had their own house and their own role. It was only when you got down to the surface and realised there wasn't a much bigger world to explore down there that it fell apart for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) Silly question you've just made me wonder - is BotW another Hyrule setting? I presume so for tradition etc but tbh if this IS a huge open world etc then you know I'd possibly be tempted by your suggestion(also come's back to Retro's one too) of essentially having an identical geographical world but with a different amount of content to it. Almost like a BotW Master Quest only not just limited to dungeons. I mean if you're gonna make that huge world then why not take advantage of trying to present it in a completely different way a few years later? Skyward Sword felt old from the get go. The dungeon design was great but the rest of the game was designed so poorly. It was basically one fetch quest after another until you reached a dungeon. Twilight Princess suffered a bit from this too; you could tell that they had probably reached the potential of Zelda on that hardware. Was the dungeon design great though? I mean...it was fun but I'd call it OK at best. The novelty came from items and control method - I actually think TP had some of the best dungeon design and variance to the series; but the problem was it was all very self-contained. I suppose a fair caveat to consider is that I probably noticed TP's dungeon design a lot more than other titles due to the aforementioned thin lacking of content outside of them. Funnily enough I would actually disagree on that very specific front, because I really liked the beginning of Skyward Sword and felt like it was full of promise. I loved Skyloft and the town in general, the inhabitants, the character and style of the shops etc and I would say it was the most believably inhabited place in Zelda to date, everyone had their own house and their own role. It was only when you got down to the surface and realised there wasn't a much bigger world to explore down there that it fell apart for me. Would probably agree with that myself too. The repeated visits to the various areas made it feel very much like they didn't have enough content but were trying to evergreen what was there. If you consider the size of TP compared to what SS offered - it certainly felt they went a bit small. The evergreening aspect certainly does make the game feel old/outdated for me; a throwback to when you'd try to recycle and maximise areas/assets to long out the game. Edited November 16, 2016 by Rummy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 do we actually know how long a delay there is yet? i thought that the quote was that a delay was likely? that gives hope that it could still meet the march target and/or be still within the launch window and be out April? May?June? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) Technically there isn't even a delay, Nintendo haven't said its coming in March - the only date they've given is 2017 so as long as it still comes out in 2017 then there isn't a delay. And I really enjoyed Skyward Sword, I hope that we can still get more linear experiences like that after Breath Of The Wild releases. Edited November 16, 2016 by killthenet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 I loved Skyward Sword too but the sky was meh and having the overworld segmented like that was such a disappointment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 Lets just all not get too annoyed until we have some more info, because right now we have no idea of anything. The Switch could launch 31st March, Mario could be a launch game with some ports of Splatoon etc, Zelda could come out in May. Or the Switch could launch in March and we get some ports at launch as a soft launch, with a major drive in June when Zelda etc launch Right now theres no point falling out and arguing - sure debate the prospect of delays but don't get angry at each other over this, its like who's got a better imaginary friend at this point Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 Right now theres no point falling out and arguing - sure debate the prospect of delays but don't get angry at each other over this, its like who's got a better imaginary friend at this point Well, that's just stupid. Everyone here knows @nekunando has the best imaginary friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 16, 2016 Well, that's just stupid. Everyone here knows @nekunando has the best imaginary friend. I don't get it.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2016 I don't get it.. Did it purely to confuse you. Worked like a charm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 17, 2016 Did it purely to confuse you. Worked like a charm. My imaginary friend disapproves.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 19, 2016 Oh! Eiji Aonuma just won a lifetime achievement award at the 2016 Golden Joystick awards! Give it a watch! There's a nice little speech from Aonuma that goes over a few things, including his love of Sherlock Holmes! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 19, 2016 Nice to see him finally get some recognition in the industry ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 [TWEET]801370512379224065[/TWEET] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 [TWEET]801370512379224065[/TWEET] That's a decent date. Not too far after the switch is released. This girl has some serious contacts @ Nintendo. They give her the good stuff. Serious question. Will the wii u console even be in stores when Zelda is released? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 It's a bit of a piss-take if you'd have to wait longer for the WiiU version! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 It's a bit of a piss-take if you'd have to wait longer for the WiiU version! You'd never be the hero of time with that kind of impatience. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 It's a bit of a piss-take if you'd have to wait longer for the WiiU version! Thank you for supporting us Wii U owners but now go and buy Switch if you want to play it early" The Wii U has been Super Consistent in taking L's Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 Mario and Zelda within 3 months of a console release, yes please. Hopefully they'll have a good Christmas game lined up as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted November 23, 2016 Damn Laura says Nintendo blacklisted her. That's very childish from Nintendo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
