Posted February 19, 2012 You can relate to female characters, but can you relate to their romances as much? Yes, yes I can. (thinking more tv/film here as I don't think I've ever been invested in a game's romantic plot) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 I like the way Dragon Age 2 did it (it was one of the few things it did right). In the first game, there were two bisexual characters to allow for a same-sex romance for characters of either gender. In the sequel, all of the love interests are romanceable by either gender (save for the DLC-exclusive character), so that's two female and two male characters that can be romanced by anyone, plus a DLC-only character that can only be romanced by a female main character. This did lead to a lot of comments about how it makes no sense for everyone to be bisexual, though, and how BioWare should have created characters with fixed sexualities. Which kind of makes sense, I guess, but at the same time you'd most likely end up with a situation like in the first game, where anyone wanting to play a gay character would only have one character to choose from, because how likely are they to create several gay characters for you to romance? It'd be like Baldur's Gate 2, where guys have three women to choose between, while girls are stuck with the most self-righteous character in the game. How far things have come for female characters in BioWare games! There were also complaints about how one of the male characters in Dragon Age 2 comes onto you even if you're playing a male character (turning him down gives you a slight penalty to your friendship with him, but it's nothing that can't be fixed by bringing him along on a quest or two), so I really don't think the world is ready for a gay Nathan Drake yet. Or maybe it's just the vocal minority (or BioWare fans) that have a problem with it. Tim Buckley sums up the opinions of the people who had a problem with it rather well in a way only he could (the comic and the newspost below it). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 Would it not make more sense to choose the sexuality of your character at the start of the game? Obviously this isn't viable for most games that have a set main character, but I'm thinking for things like Fallout or Mass Effect, where you can choose various aspects of your character, why not include sexuality as one of those aspects? That way you wouldn't have the problems that Magnus mentioned. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 I'd be stunned by a Final Fantasy X redux where you could choose which of the main party you were romantically involved with. Come on Rikku. Come on Kimahri. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 Would it not make more sense to choose the sexuality of your character at the start of the game? Obviously this isn't viable for most games that have a set main character, but I'm thinking for things like Fallout or Mass Effect, where you can choose various aspects of your character, why not include sexuality as one of those aspects? That way you wouldn't have the problems that Magnus mentioned. Yeah, I'm not sure what the logic is behind not letting you choose when you create your character. Though I guess you'd run the risk of going into Dragon Age: Origins as a gay character and being stuck with the sleazy Zevran, when Morrigan is so much cooler, despite her deep cleavage. Fallout: New Vegas actually allowed you to pick perks (or whatever the game calls them) that opens up flirtatious dialogue options with either male or female characters (or both, if you get both perks). Of course, it's limited to only a few characters throughout the game and there is no actual romance to be had anywhere regardless of sexual orientation, but still. I think BioWare learned their lesson and any potentially gay characters will keep it in their pants until you come onto them from now on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 Morrigan is so much cooler, despite her deep cleavage. For an english graduate, you often use the wrong words. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 Sorry, Moogle. We can't all be boob men. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 19, 2012 Dragon Age: Origins (...) Morrigan is so much cooler, despite her deep cleavage. Is that name a coincidence? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 The Morr?gan was an old Irish myth, a witch warrior woman, helped some warriors win battles but was generally feared. Associated with crows I think. I can't see what you mean by coincidence? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 I was unaware of the myth, so thank you for that. Still doesn't explain the cleavages Morrigan from Darkstalkers is a sex-driven succubus, what's the excuse for the one from Dragon Age? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 What, you didn't know? All Morrigans are sluts. Fact. (Actually, the slut in Dragon Age is the male elf. Morrigan just dresses like one, but that makes sense because she's a woman in a video game.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 This thread just makes me think of this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 Hi everyone!I'm writing a third year dissertation on masculinity and technology, particularly looking at gay men and their relation to videogame (the games, the industry etc). Research is pretty thin on the ground (which is partly why my diss tutor encouraged me to look into it) and I'm a bit lost with how to continue. My interim report was returned to me with good feedback but said it needs to be more focused. SO. If anyone has any opinions, facts or feedback on issues involving gay representation, gay gamers relationship with the industry or gay developers and companies then leave a comment, it'll be greatly appreciated and hopefully make direction a bit clearer. Thanks! What is your argument for this dissertation? I don't really get what it is you are investigating... the relationship between gay men and games... but to what end? I thought you would need to pose a question... like "Why are game developers and publishers afraid of The Gay Hero" or something...? Just as some fodder for the fire here are my very general two pence on the subject... I mean I don't really NEED Nathan Drake to be Gay, because I feel like I am playing a very well written story and I am NOT Drake... I am happy for him to knock boots with women and so on... BUT I do think having a big game like this with a Gay protagonist would be a massive leap forward, and why not? Well same reason the FA are terrified of footballers coming out.. MONNEEEEYYYYY!!! Imagine Marcus and Dom ACTUALLY being lovers in Gears of War? They flirt with it already, but would never risk doing it outright incase their 18+ male audience didn't like it (and with the amount of homophobia rampant on Online play, my guess is they wouldn't) On the flip side if I am playing a game where I am building the character, even in the most limited sense, then I bloody well want to choose who he flirts with, kisses, shags, marries... why the hell not? I loved Lionhead Studio for giving me the freedom to choose... I shrug with pity at Bethesda for taking so fucking long... For me if it's relevant then I want the choice. I don't feel like I NEED Lara Croft or some massive character to BE gay but I challenge a developer to be Brave enough and prove that it ISN'T a big deal... because it's not. The amount of straight people who say "Ohhh the gays want this and that but don't want their sexuality to be a big deal... hypocrits" but miss the point... I think when we are at a stage where people play a game and roll with the Character in whatever form they take, sex, weight, sexuality... then that will be a good place... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 What is your argument for this dissertation? I don't really get what it is you are investigating... the relationship between gay men and games... but to what end? I thought you would need to pose a question... like "Why are game developers and publishers afraid of The Gay Hero" or something...? I think he's going to formulate/adjust his research base don what he sees here (or elsewhere). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 I don't feel like I NEED Lara Croft or some massive character to BE gay but I challenge a developer to be Brave enough and prove that it ISN'T a big deal... because it's not. As bad as it sounds, Lara Croft (or any female character) being gay wouldn't have anywhere near as much impact as a gay male main character: it would just increase their already high sex appeal. Although if done in a more subtle way (like Felicia Day's character in Fallout: New Vegas) it could work well. One thing I think could work well is if they hinted that Agent 47 (who I believe has shown no sexual preference so far) could be gay in the next Hitman game. I would quite like to see what the reaction to that would be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I remember playing The Sims years ago and being amazed that you could make your sim romantically involved with any other sim, male or female. Of course I had 2 gay men living together in a ridiculously large manor-styled home. It felt great. That's the only time I can remember there being any fully gay characters who weren't ashamed about it. It felt right and liberating. That's why I'm annoyed at somme's comment about not needing to have a gay character in a game for representation. The way I read it, it felt like you were talking for the entire gay community. Not everyone is / was as lucky as you were. A lot of us need some sort of way, however direct or indirect, to tell us that what we feel is normal. If I had a gay character in a video game when I was younger -- that would have helped me so much. I'm not surprised by the lack of homosexual characters in gaming (gay men to be specific). The gaming world was for so long completely hetero-crazed & isolated. It's the whole "lesbian's are hot" but gay men are "freaks & unnatural". I think since the Wii video games have become very universal and this'll influence the in-game characters. I hope that soon we will have female's who aren't sexualised, openly gay men & women characters etc. etc. This whole debate of "I want to relate to a character" ... "video games are a form of escapism for me" is absolute shit. This issue is much greater than you. And if you can't relate yourself to a gay character ... shut up. I really just can't. Edited February 20, 2012 by Frank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 What is your argument for this dissertation? I don't really get what it is you are investigating... the relationship between gay men and games... but to what end? I thought you would need to pose a question... like "Why are game developers and publishers afraid of The Gay Hero" or something...? At the moment I'm trying to hit the topic from too many angles, which is precisely why I'm asking for opinions on here and elsewhere to find a talking point which generates the most interest and I'll build a case from that. I went into it with a purpose to investigate where all the gay characters in games are, and why the representation is non existant. Also I think I suggested this to you before Coo but have you thought of making some comparisons to The Celluloid Closet? If a video game 'version' needs to be made (or at least discussed)? Plus you're in Brighton, there's a huge game dev network! See if you can chat to some developers about the issues! As long as you don't ask stuff such as "Y U NO GAY CHARACTERS, HOMOPHOBES?" I'm sure they'll be receptive. The Celluloid Closet is on my list of things to check out, thanks again. I know that locally I'm in a pretty good position to sort out interviews and questionnaires etc but I'm hesitant to make contact before I have a clear question in mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 20, 2012 This whole debate of "I want to relate to a character" ... "video games are a form of escapism for me" is absolute shit. This issue is much greater than you. And if you can't relate yourself to a gay character ... shut up. I really just can't. wow, way to piss on your own point. It doesn't need to be an aggressive thing "Rawrrr!!! SHUT UP, RELATE TO A GAY CHARACTER!!!" It's not about forcing someone to do something they aren't comfortable with, it's about it being a natural thing in the industry to have Gay or Straight or whatever... and it not be an exibition or a problem. Obviously this is more complicated because different types of games and different genres are far more applicable than others... like in harvest moon, I am as irritated as I am understanding about only being able to marry a woman... but in a game like Mass Effect??? Only women are allowed to have same sex relationships? and it wasn't as some sort of liberation for lesbians, it was selling girl on girl to the young lads... Hey it's sci-fi, but it has lesbo alien sex... When the game came out it's ALLL people were saying about it.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 For the record, a gay character wouldn't make me uncomfortable in any way, I just wouldn't relate to it as much. And I find it a bit hypocritical of you @Frank. You get aggressive toward my viewpoint of not relating to a gay character, but then say how necessary a gay character would be for young gay guys, and how much you related to your gay Sims couple. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 Well, personally speaking I felt kind of alienated from the gaming cliques at school after I became aware of being gay. It felt like I was ostracised from gaming conversations with my lad friends because my sexuality didn't belong in that culture, and if it wasn't through contact on sites like this one I might have lost involvement in games completely. If more/better representation in games helps normalise the notion that gay people play games, that can't be a bad thing. I don't think relating to characters should be influenced by their sexuality, unless their sexuality defines them (and unless the lazy programmers and writers aren't falling back on stereotypes this wouldn't be a problem) it's your ability to emotionally connect. I've had compassion while playing a straight guy because the character seemed human and I could sympathise with their plights, surely a straight guy could get on with playing a gay guy without feeling distant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 Apologies for getting aggressive, I didn't mean to be. I got a little carried away because it's something I'm passionate about Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 I don't think relating to characters should be influenced by their sexuality, unless their sexuality defines them (and unless the lazy programmers and writers aren't falling back on stereotypes this wouldn't be a problem) it's your ability to emotionally connect. I've had compassion while playing a straight guy because the character seemed human and I could sympathise with their plights, surely a straight guy could get on with playing a gay guy without feeling distant. Definitely, I was talking more about romance plots. Personally I've never thought sexuality was that prevalent in games anyway. Most games the character's sexuality doesn't come into it. Of course gender fantasies do (muscular male, scantily clad female). I think there was a thread about it not too long back. May have been to do with comics instead of games, but I imagine a lot of it would apply to games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 RPG games would be the main type of game that it'd be a thing. I can imagine it being done well, if at first it's not obvious and then slowly as the story progresses it's like "oh, actually this character I'm walking around as might not actually be straight". I'd be more stunned by "oh, this character I'm walking around as might not actually be cisgendered", as more of their backstory is fleshed out you realised they lived the first section of their life as the other sex. If the character was written well and was someone cool and likeable I think it'd be really effective. Maybe it might come under fire for using a sex transition as a plot twist though? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 Personally I've never thought sexuality was that prevalent in games anyway. Most games the character's sexuality doesn't come into it. Well, it depends on how you define "coming into it", I guess. All three Uncharted games had relationship complications/sexual tension between Nate and the love interest(s). Gears of War 2 had the side plot about that one guy's wife. Alan Wake's trying to save his wife. Max Payne's wife is killed and then he meets Mona Sax. Phoenix Wright has an ex-girlfriend in the third game. Adam Jensen has a girlfriend at the beginning of Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Xenoblade Chronicles, Infamous, 999, Heavy Rain... They all have straight relationships. It's not usually the focus, but it's there in a lot of games. And then when you get the chance to have a gay relationship in a game, it's only ever as an optional choice in an RPG. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 21, 2012 And now, ladies and gentlemen, the Jimquisition. Let him solve all the problems with the industry. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
