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CooInTheZoo

Gays and Games (fishing for dissertation help)

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Hi everyone!

I'm writing a third year dissertation on masculinity and technology, particularly looking at gay men and their relation to videogame (the games, the industry etc). Research is pretty thin on the ground (which is partly why my diss tutor encouraged me to look into it) and I'm a bit lost with how to continue. My interim report was returned to me with good feedback but said it needs to be more focused.

 

SO.

If anyone has any opinions, facts or feedback on issues involving gay representation, gay gamers relationship with the industry or gay developers and companies then leave a comment, it'll be greatly appreciated and hopefully make direction a bit clearer. Thanks!

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Persona 4 felt a bit stunning. It felt so refreshing to have discussion of a gay sexuality in an RPG. Albeit really illiberated viewpoint on the affair, like felt really seedy and full of self-loathing.

 

But I stopped playing when I got to the steamhouse bit (can't remember why, presumably because I had a more pressing game to play?), and apparently it unravels that he's not actually gay and it was all a massive misunderstanding? If so, I want to die.

 

 

I remember being 7 years old the bit in Midgar where you had to dress Cloud as a woman in Final Fantasy VII was my absolute favourite thing. I used to start the game again and play to get to that bit. On reflection now it kinda takes the mick out of transvestitism in an unhelpful way though :/

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Extra Credits did an episode on sexual diversity in video games with a focus on Persona 4.

 

I, um... kind of think he's on the wrong track with the Persona 4 characters, though, but his more general points might be of interest.

 

 

But I stopped playing when I got to the steamhouse bit (can't remember why, presumably because I had a more pressing game to play?), and apparently it unravels that he's not actually gay and it was all a massive misunderstanding? If so, I want to die.

It's never explicitly stated either way, but he has a crush on Naoto, who he thinks is a guy, and that, along with his love for sewing seem to be the things that make him question his sexuality. When it turns out Naoto was actually a girl all along, he doesn't seem to mind one bit, and I don't think his sexuality is ever brought up again.

 

There's also a scene where he gets a nosebleed when he sees some girls in swimsuits, so...

 

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In Mass Effect, people who pick a female character can have a homosexual relationship, but those who pick a male character can't.

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In Mass Effect, people who pick a female character can have a homosexual relationship, but those who pick a male character can't.

 

Although thats being changed for Mass Effect 3 isnt it?

Edited by Happenstance

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The first Mass Effect had unfinished dialogue files for gay relationships, so evidently they were considered. Doubt you'll get a straight answer for why they were dropped. Err, so to speak.

 

That said, Dragon Age II ? from the same developer ? did have gay relationship options which caused some people to complain; David Gaider was the game's lead writer, so I'm sure you can pluck a few quotes from that thread.

 

To throw out another avenue, Fable 2 and Skyrim both feature gay marriage. Not that those systems are particularly involved, but it might be something worth investigating.

 

Microsoft changing their Live username policy might also be something to consider.

 

One final suggestion would be to head over to http://gaygamer.net and ask people there. Not that you should confine things to one perspective, but it might give you an idea of what are considered the biggest issues amongst the group you're looking into.

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You might all disagree but surely Birdo is actually a fascinating area of discussion?

 

While gamers often make fun of Birdo's "confusion", nowhere in those infamous instruction manuals does it actually paint Birdo's gender identity as a bad thing. Sure, Birdo started out as a villain (and has since become neutral/good) but her transgenderism has no baring on her role as a villain, it's just a detail about her life. I've always thought that was incredibly liberated of Nintendo and I wish they would promote that a bit more, rather than ignore it ever happened or use it as part of a joke.

 

And then we of course have Luigi... Partners in Time all but confirmed it I think.

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Well as a gay myself I couldn't care less if there were gay storylines in videogames. I play them to be entertained, for a certain amount of escapism. I'm not saying gays don't have a place in games I'm just saying I don't care.

 

What kind of games do I like? All sorts, from WoW to Mario Kart, from Smash Bros. to Tetris. If it's got good game mechanics and interests me then I'm there.

 

I don't know if any of thats helpful, if you need anything else/more then I'm happy to oblige.

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Thanks for all the feedback so far! Hadn't really lookedi into Persona 4 yet, will crack on with that to see if I can make a case study out of it.

 

Well as a gay myself I couldn't care less if there were gay storylines in videogames. I play them to be entertained, for a certain amount of escapism. I'm not saying gays don't have a place in games I'm just saying I don't care.

 

I think it depends on the games you play. It would be totally unnecessary in games like Tetris, thats true. But to play an obviously straight guy in 99.9% of action/adventure/whatever games that are getting pretty cinematic and narrative heavy isn't very helpful for a young gay kid looking for representation in media. It's an interesting debate at least.

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Videogame protagonist odds (from, most likely):

 

White/Japanese Male (99% of the games out there) > Objectified Female (Bayonetta) > Not Human (SSHD) > Not White (GTA:SA and.....Shadowman?) > Ethereal (Child of Eden/Flower) > Animal (Okami) >>>>>>>> Gay (....Fruit Ninja??)

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It's just a gay character would have to be a "gay character". There would have to be a big hoo-haa about it all, their sexuality would have to be the most important aspect about them.

 

I think someone like Nathan Drake from the Uncharted games could have been gay, and I don't think it would have affected sales. It wouldn't change a single thing about the gameplay. I dunno why nobody has done something like that yet, it seems like the right time. You'd probably get a lot of praise for it, rather than negativity.

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I think someone like Nathan Drake from the Uncharted games could have been gay, and I don't think it would have affected sales. It wouldn't change a single thing about the gameplay. I dunno why nobody has done something like that yet, it seems like the right time. You'd probably get a lot of praise for it, rather than negativity.

 

They should have made Harry Flynn the main character.

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Thanks for all the feedback so far! Hadn't really lookedi into Persona 4 yet, will crack on with that to see if I can make a case study out of it.

 

 

 

I think it depends on the games you play. It would be totally unnecessary in games like Tetris, thats true. But to play an obviously straight guy in 99.9% of action/adventure/whatever games that are getting pretty cinematic and narrative heavy isn't very helpful for a young gay kid looking for representation in media. It's an interesting debate at least.

 

True but I was a young gay kid once and didn't need to find representation in games. There are so many others places in the media you can find it. I personally found it in Placebo but thats another story.

 

I very rarely play games where any kind of relationship is important, gay or straight. And as Hamish said, if there was a gay in a game that would be their only quality.

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And as Hamish said, if there was a gay in a game that would be their only quality.

 

Really? Sexuality doesn't have to define characters. If Cloud from Final Fantasy VII had a gay love triangle and one of them was murdered blah blah it would be an important story element but it wouldn't take away from the fact he saved the planet. Same with Nathan Drake like mentioned, he could be an adventurer and a gay guy, surely? It wouldn't necessarily change their character in any way.

 

I think representation is important, and the fact there's almost no gays in games makes me uncomfortable. Why not? What's going on there? You can't say it's not important because if there were no female characters, or black characters (bad example, there's not a lot of these either) or whatever the industry would be ridiculed.

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I don't feel too strongly about this issue (the main character's sexuality is the least of my concerns, especially considering plenty of them seem to act asexual or celibate).

 

However, I've always thought Ike from Fire Emblem was gay. The first game tries to hint a possible relationship with Elincia, but all of that goes away in the sequel, and they go separate ways. And at the end, he can spend the rest of his life with one of two possible men.

Granted, the initial hints I got were his PoR conversations with Marcia and Ranulf, which aren't much, but then the sequel outright confirmed it.

 

In the same game, there's this cheeky thief/con-girl named Heather. She's a cool gal whose dialogue drops several hints at her being a lesbian. The fact that she's a good-natured thief is more important, but the fandom usually takes her assumed lesbianism to be her character-defining trait, simply because it's uncommon to see an openly gay character in videogames.

 

Hamishmash has the right idea. In Fire Emblem, half of the cast (which usually numbers the dozens) could easily be gay. Some even are, or can at least end up with someone of the same gender. And yet, it never really matters (except when having children becomes a plot point). If more of these characters were open homossexuals, nobody would assume it was their defining trait (like with Heather).

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Really? Sexuality doesn't have to define characters. If Cloud from Final Fantasy VII had a gay love triangle and one of them was murdered blah blah it would be an important story element but it wouldn't take away from the fact he saved the planet. Same with Nathan Drake like mentioned, he could be an adventurer and a gay guy, surely? It wouldn't necessarily change their character in any way.

 

I think representation is important, and the fact there's almost no gays in games makes me uncomfortable. Why not? What's going on there? You can't say it's not important because if there were no female characters, or black characters (bad example, there's not a lot of these either) or whatever the industry would be ridiculed.

 

I think the point he's trying to make is that, like Jonnas highlights, people tend to make the sexuality the important aspect.

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Often it is the case that heterosexuality is a major theme / driving force of a game. Like a lot of the imagery/plot of Final Fantasy VIII was centred on Squall/Rinoa. It would just be really cool and exciting if there were games where similar emphasis was put on male/male relationship. In the case of Final Fantasy VIII it could have been Squall/Zell with very little change to the characters -- Zell feels like a twink who can't deal with the fact he's a twink, Squall a closet case.

 

[Although it would be a shitty story because Zell has none of the gravitas and mystique as a character as Rinoa does, and it would ruin the neat thing they have with Laguna/Squall Rinoa/Julia too, but that's semantics]

 

I see Somme's point if you're playing games like Tetris/Mario Kart/Crash Bandicoot where sexuality feels irrelevant, but the main games I play are RPGs, where the story is the prime aspect. I must have played ~30 RPGs, like 1 of which has a gay character in it. If there's, say, 10 notable characters in each game, that's 0.3% of characters, which is way below the recognised 3-10% of the population.

 

Lightning in Final Fantasy XIII is the closest thing I've come to being stunned by an LGBT character in a video game, but even then she's not explicitly given a sexuality (up to the point I've played, which is Gran Pulse).

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Often where romance is only an option side/bit of fun (i.e. Fable), then you can be gay. If it's an integral part of the story, then it makes sense that they'd be straight. People want to relate to be able to relate to the main character, and escape into the game. And since over 90% of the population are straight, developers are going to make their main character straight, as they want to sell the most games possible. If only around 7% of the population can relate to the character/story, then it's not going to sell many copies. People seem to forget that this is business, and not ethics/morality. Gays in games are mostly going to be side characters, if they were a gay main character, then it would most likely be done to make a point or get people talking about it.

 

It's not just related to gays either, there's plenty of "discrimination" in games. Do you think FFVIII's romance plot would have been anywhere near as popular if Rinoa was unattractive? There aren't many obese main characters. Men are usually muscular, women are hot with muchos cleveage. It's all about appealing to the mass.

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People want to relate to be able to relate to the main character, and escape into the game. And since over 90% of the population are straight, developers are going to make their main character straight, as they want to sell the most games possible. If only around 7% of the population can relate to the character/story, then it's not going to sell many copies. People seem to forget that this is business, and not ethics/morality.

 

I call bullshit* on this. I can name a number of female characters that I relate more to than males and it has nothing to do with my junk. And the argument is the same really; the population is roughly 50/50 male/female so why are there so few female lead characters, particularly in contemporary video game culture whereby the numbers are balancing out.

 

A relatable character is relatable due to their character, not biological make up.

 

Also I think I suggested this to you before Coo but have you thought of making some comparisons to The Celluloid Closet? If a video game 'version' needs to be made (or at least discussed)? Plus you're in Brighton, there's a huge game dev network! See if you can chat to some developers about the issues! As long as you don't ask stuff such as "Y U NO GAY CHARACTERS, HOMOPHOBES?" I'm sure they'll be receptive.

 

Exactly what is the methodology you're applying to this btw?

 

 

*not because I think you're speaking bullshit as such, I just like the word and am using it to mean "I disagree"

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I call bullshit* on this. I can name a number of female characters that I relate more to than males and it has nothing to do with my junk. And the argument is the same really; the population is roughly 50/50 male/female so why are there so few female lead characters, particularly in contemporary video game culture whereby the numbers are balancing out.

 

Well in recent years it's balancing out, but there are still more male gamers, and male gamers spend more time playing games/play more games than female gamers. And go back a few years and it was even more of a sausage fest.

 

You can relate to female characters, but can you relate to their romances as much? Personally when playing games like FFVIII, which I use as a form of escapism, I find myself fantasising about being the main character. I'm squall and I'm courting Rinoa and saving the world. I doubt I could have done that anywhere near to the same degree if Squall was chasing Zell.

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Often where romance is only an option side/bit of fun (i.e. Fable), then you can be gay. If it's an integral part of the story, then it makes sense that they'd be straight. People want to relate to be able to relate to the main character, and escape into the game. And since over 90% of the population are straight, developers are going to make their main character straight, as they want to sell the most games possible. If only around 7% of the population can relate to the character/story, then it's not going to sell many copies. People seem to forget that this is business, and not ethics/morality. Gays in games are mostly going to be side characters, if they were a gay main character, then it would most likely be done to make a point or get people talking about it.

 

It's not just related to gays either, there's plenty of "discrimination" in games. Do you think FFVIII's romance plot would have been anywhere near as popular if Rinoa was unattractive? There aren't many obese main characters. Men are usually muscular, women are hot with muchos cleveage. It's all about appealing to the mass.

 

Games aren't made for the sole purpose of making money. There is some artistry involved. Most RPGs are meticulously designed, not because that's going to sell more copies, but because the designers are into it.

 

Re: selling point / talking point, my mind jumps to Brokeback Mountain. Everyone was like OMGzzz ITS ABOUT GAY COWBOYS WHO HAVE BUTTSEX IN A TENT, but clearly the director and design team had no intention of the film being marketed like that. They filmed it to be a beautiful, poignant piece of art, and that's what it was. While the "novelty" certainly helped it sell cinema tickets, in the long term the film will certainly be remember for being good rather than for being a thing where tentsex happens.

If Final Fantasy XV were to have a headlining gay relationship I think a similar thing might happen. Everyone would be like "OMG this iz total madness", but then when it turned out to be a good game people would get over it.

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