England Riots

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

They caught the scumbag responsible for this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14515047

 

Yeah, I just heard that on the radio. Amazing news.

[Yvonne]

So what you're saying is that no form of humour that could potentially be offensive to anyone should ever be made because it's oppressive?

 

That is not what I am saying, which may be why you are having difficulty with the position.

 

There are things that you don't know could cause offense, and its not reasonable to expect everyone to have a complete and up to date catalogue of things that everyone in the world doesn't like. For these situations you need to be receptive and respectful when someone calls you out for saying something hurtful to them.

 

Then there are things like racist and rape jokes about which you should know better already, you're an adult.

 

That's not to say you shouldn't try to avoid offending whoever's present, of course. But then again, people need to have a certain level of self-irony. Should I be offended when black people make fun of white people? Of course not!

 

Here's another important difference that people need to be aware of -

we as whites have not experienced the kind of systemic oppression that people of colour have been exposed to for centuries.

It is not "reverse racism" for them to joke about their experiences with oppression, which generally includes whites. In fact it's a silencing tactic to say that it isn't fair for their voices to be heard in this way. If you come up with a joke involving black people that doesn't generalise dismiss or erase their experiences, I would like to hear it.

 

Jokes are for fun, but jokes are powerful. You can use them to break down walls or you can use them to prop up the same old bullshit. It's what you do with them.

[ipaul]

Simon Schama is a good historian, but less politically interesting than David Starkey. Peter Hitchens is another favourite of mine, but I suppose it depends on whether you lean more to the left or right.

 

What I like about David Starkey is that he's always radical and usually presents a solution (eg. taking lessons from Canada to deal with the financial crisis). He always looks at the issues, seemingly without bias or prejudice, and then comes to a conclusion regardless of how popular or unpopular it might be.

 

It's really quite odd people are calling him racist when he went out of his way to praise the Tottenham MP David Lammy, for example. He doesn't appear to have an interest in being racist at all.

 

Everyone has some sort of bias, Starkey quite clearly has a Conservative bias. He hates the Labour party.

[Yvonne]

there is one good thing to come out of all this though!

[heroicjanitor]

there is one good thing to come out of all this though!

 

Do tell? :p

[Yvonne]

I've got 100 posts, and now I can thank!!!

[Eddage]

Here's another important difference that people need to be aware of -

we as whites have not experienced the kind of systemic oppression that people of colour have been exposed to for centuries.

It is not "reverse racism" for them to joke about their experiences with oppression, which generally includes whites. In fact it's a silencing tactic to say that it isn't fair for their voices to be heard in this way. If you come up with a joke involving black people that doesn't generalise dismiss or erase their experiences, I would like to hear it.

 

Jokes are for fun, but jokes are powerful. You can use them to break down walls or you can use them to prop up the same old bullshit. It's what you do with them.

 

So you're saying we should treat them differently? Kinda goes against the whole equality thing doesn't it?

 

As far as I'm concerned a joke is a joke. Nothing is off limits when it comes to jokes.

[Yvonne]

I'm not saying treat differently, I'm saying you're treating two situations as the same which are actually different.

[heroicjanitor]

I've got 100 posts, and now I can thank!!!

 

 

Was good when I finally got there, 95 more and I'll be an aficionado

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

There are things that you don't know could cause offense, and its not reasonable to expect everyone to have a complete and up to date catalogue of things that everyone in the world doesn't like. For these situations you need to be receptive and respectful when someone calls you out for saying something hurtful to them.

 

This I completely agree with.

 

Then there are things like racist and rape jokes about which you should know better already, you're an adult.

 

This I completely and utterly disagree with.

 

Here's another important difference that people need to be aware of -

we as whites have not experienced the kind of systemic oppression that people of colour have been exposed to for centuries.

It is not "reverse racism" for them to joke about their experiences with oppression, which generally includes whites. In fact it's a silencing tactic to say that it isn't fair for their voices to be heard in this way. If you come up with a joke involving black people that doesn't generalise dismiss or erase their experiences, I would like to hear it.

 

I do see what you mean here, however it is still completely irrelevant since I disagree entirely with the idea that jokes about topics like racism are inherently bad.

 

Jokes are for fun, but jokes are powerful. You can use them to break down walls or you can use them to prop up the same old bullshit. It's what you do with them.

 

I agree. Which is exactly why you can't just call all racism jokes bad. You have to take into account all the other factors (like the disposition of sender and audience) to determine whether the joke was meant to hurt or to make fun of the ridiculous concept that is racism. The latter of which is exactly what the jokes in here have done, yet you jumped to conclusions without considering the other factors.

[Yvonne]

I said racist jokes, not racism jokes.

[Emasher]

Perhaps you should look at why the majority of people are offended by such jokes. Do you honestly believe people can legitimately get offended by the sort of lighthearted humor that's been expressed her? Aside from perhaps one comment in this entire thread (which the author has already apologized for), there hasn't been any real racism here. Nobody has suggested that we should harm or put at a disadvantage anyone of any particular ethnic group. People get offended by statements like the jokes in this thread because they were raised being told they should be offended every time someone so much as mentions race, and lack the critical thinking skills to analyze the situation and figure out what's really going on.

 

In addition, there's no such thing as "reverse racism". The word "Racism" is not tied to any one particular ethnic group. Its a neutral word, and someone of any ethnicity who tries to cause harm to anyone of any other ethnicity simply because of their ethnicity is conducting in racism. There also is (although not a severe) systemic oppression against white people developing in the western world. You just have to look as far as affirmative action programs (which hurt east Asians as well as whites), and the general attitude that people in the west have towards being politically correct and against white people having any sort of celebrations of their culture to see where we're headed.

 

Consider this, if you look through the list of scholarships available in any high school in my country (Canada), you'll notice that 90% of them require the recipient to either be a visible minority (which in Canada generally either means black or aboriginal) or a woman. Now I'm not complaining about this, people with money should be able to choose where they spend that money and if they want to set up specific requirements for who can receive it, its their decision. However, imagine for a moment that I decided I wanted to offer a scholarship that could only be given to white males. I would likely be sued for doing the exact same thing as everyone else.

 

I should apologies if my posts aren't really making that much sense at the moment, I had my wisdom teeth out a few days ago and the medication I'm taking is making writing this all out more difficult than usual.

[Supergrunch]

Wow guys, much of the above makes me want to lock this thread. Prior to King_V, as far as I could tell most people took a fairly dim view of the few racist comments, which were unfortunately still more frequent than I'd like. I hope that people who are obviously racist have already showed their ignorance to the forum, and it won't do much good going round and calling it out, which is why I think many people just left it.

The most obvious being formal post secondary education, but naturally not everyone can afford this (I'm aware that not everyone can gain the necessary prerequisites to attend a university either, but that's ALMOST always down to the fault of the individual and the poor decisions that they've made).

Aside from the arrogance inherent in the assumption that everyone should go to university or an equivalent if they can (Do you really believe that being educated in an academic subject helps employment in all useful domains? Why should people conform to what you seem to consider more prestigious?), we have a serious problem of over-subscription to universities, resulting in too many graduates, many of whom can't find appropriate employment, or in some cases even employment at all. Sending more people to university who aren't suitable for it is only going to exacerbate this problem.

[Yvonne]

I believe I put the term "reverse racism" in scare quotes to highlight the inherently problematic nature of the term. Which is only unironically used by people who have a problem with measures designed to make the game just that little bit less rigged.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of scholarships to give the chance to people who otherwise wouldn't have it? Maybe that 10% figure is arrived at by figuring that white men in poverty make up about that fraction of people who "otherwise wouldn't have the chance".

 

So it's kind of self evident why people would be annoyed if there was a special program specifically for white males - they are generally the ones already AT college with the means to do it.

 

As much as it pains me to do it, I think I'm going to scrape the thread and put in one post all the horseshit jokes and point out their flaws to cement my position as a Humourless Feministâ„¢. Well, maybe later.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I said racist jokes, not racism jokes.

 

Which jokes in here would you consider racist? And which are merely about racism?

 

Wow guys, much of the above makes me want to lock this thread. Prior to King_V, as far as I could tell most people took a fairly dim view of the few racist comments, which were unfortunately still more frequent than I'd like. I hope that people who are obviously racist have already showed their ignorance to the forum, and it won't do much good going round and calling it out, which is why I think many people just left it.

 

Were there actually any genuine racist opinions being expressed? I don't remember seeing any, but people keep claiming there are, so now I've started wondering if I missed them or if we disagree on what constitutes a racist opinion.

 

Would people mind pointing out what posts in particular they're talking about?

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Ok, misunderstandings and the like so I will reply each one.

[Emasher]

Wow guys, much of the above makes me want to lock this thread. Prior to King_V, as far as I could tell most people took a fairly dim view of the few racist comments, which were unfortunately still more frequent than I'd like. I hope that people who are obviously racist have already showed their ignorance to the forum, and it won't do much good going round and calling it out, which is why I think many people just left it.

 

Aside from the arrogance inherent in the assumption that everyone should go to university or an equivalent if they can (Do you really believe that being educated in an academic subject helps employment in all useful domains? Why should people conform to what you seem to consider more prestigious?), we have a serious problem of over-subscription to universities, resulting in too many graduates, many of whom can't find appropriate employment, or in some cases even employment at all. Sending more people to university who aren't suitable for it is only going to exacerbate this problem.

 

I completely agree. Going to university is not for everyone. A lot of people go there for the wrong reasons and end up studying subjects that aren't going to help them at all. It was really just an example. It also depends highly on the country. For instance in Canada right now, high tech jobs are in demand, as well as the trades. Computer Science and Engineering graduates are in high demand right now, these particular fields really require you to go to university. Trade jobs are also in high demand. What I was more getting at was that people should try and develop skills that are in demand in their particular country rather than just remaining unskilled and having the expectation that someone should hire them.

 

I believe I put the term "reverse racism" in scare quotes to highlight the inherently problematic nature of the term. Which is only unironically used by people who have a problem with measures designed to make the game just that little bit less rigged.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the point of scholarships to give the chance to people who otherwise wouldn't have it? Maybe that 10% figure is arrived at by figuring that white men in poverty make up about that fraction of people who "otherwise wouldn't have the chance".

 

So it's kind of self evident why people would be annoyed if there was a special program specifically for white males - they are generally the ones already AT college with the means to do it.

 

As much as it pains me to do it, I think I'm going to scrape the thread and put in one post all the horseshit jokes and point out their flaws to cement my position as a Humourless Feministâ„¢. Well, maybe later.

 

The other scholarships were for people who's parents belonged to specific fraternal organizations who generally are already rich in the first place. There are relatively few opportunities for a genuinely disadvantaged white male compared to people of other "races" as far as scholarships go. The problem that I have isn't that there are more scholarships for minorities. I really don't care about that (as I think I mentioned), I firmly believe that people should be able to spend their money where they see fit. I was more trying to highlight the fact that white people are scrutinized much more for anything they do that has anything to do with "race". For instance, an organization that celebrates "White" culture (note, I'm talking specifically about organizations that do NOT partake in racism, before someone accuses me of supporting the KKK or something like that) would likely be labeled as racist regardless of the activities the group participates in. A similar group made up of for instance "black" people that celebrates "black" culture would likely be praised for doing pretty much the same thing.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Dude, you're the one being prejudiced right now. You're judging someone based on a joke he made. Haven't you ever heard of self-irony? Heck, humour in general? The sheer idea that you think a joke represents actual opinion is, sorry to say, ridiculous. I love self-deprecating humour and often use it myself, and I enjoy it when others do it as well. I'm not offended because I know it's all in good fun.

 

No. I didn't name or quote anyone - so the misinterpretation of any personal judgements I have apparently dealt out is void.

 

I understand racist jokes, I get it/I don't care THAT much about your opinion. But at such a sensitive time and at such a sensitive occasion... really...necessary? At such a subject, the 'jokes' I have read here are venomous and obviously different to the common nigger joke, and was surprised to see little rebuke.

Edited August 13, 2011 by King_V

[Yvonne]

I would be suspicious of organisations celebrating "white" culture because the counterparts for marginalised groups are generally in place BECAUSE they are marginalised, and so the justification is to redress the balance and put forward other perspectives, make things more inclusive, all that fun stuff.

 

My favourite response to the tired "what about a white history month" argument is, there already IS white history month. It's every single other month of the year.

 

Also from the sounds of it that scholarship system is pretty messed up.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

But to avoid making jokes about them (when you make jokes about all other groups) would be treating them as if they're not equal.

 

Who is asking that Black people be exempt from the joke list? By your label "them" I'll take a dive and assume you don't even have a black friend.

[Cube]

Who is asking that Black people be exempt from the joke list? By your label "them" I'll take a dive and assume you don't even have a black friend.

 

It sounded like you were asking that. I have one black friend. Strangely, I've not really met many in school/uni/work.

 

Two if you count Brian Mcoy.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

My reaction was based on a few mindless jokes, which for this subject, is just adding fire to the flame and they do not spark humour, and I'll be the first one to laugh at a stupid joke. I came here to see N-Europe's views, and it was concerning to see these jokes followed with very little rebuke. Its funny, because I get jumped on by mods for apparently diagnosing a member with depression but this goes unchecked.

 

I live in London; call me sensitive if you wish - but I'd imagine most of us are at the moment.

 

In this scenerio, making a playful "harmless" joke about black men being equal to wanton violence will, of course, and rightly so, strike a nerve. This isn't a joke intended for humour. But yet no one really countered it... I guess I came here expecting to see such sentiment but a part of me was hoping for cognitive advancement.

 

When we brown measely minorities see a horde of white people mindlessly destroying a stadium and attacking anything non-white - we with a fully functioning brain do not jump to the conclusion that all white people are racist hooligans. But as soon as a few Black people are seen causing mayhem its back to the same cruise-control mentalities hidden in "jokes".

[Cube]

The mods didn't "jump on you". In fact Flinky defend you.

 

BTW, apart from the Mcoy one, I haven't made any racist jokes in this thread. I just find the decent ones funny. Any joke with a specific degeratory remark (such as the n word) is an obvious no-no.

[Ellmeister]

But I don't see where anyone said all black people were hooligans? People time and again stated and knew that it was a mix of people all joining together under their intent to cause havoc.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

The mods didn't "jump on you". In fact Flinky defend you.

 

BTW, apart from the Mcoy one, I haven't made any racist jokes in this thread. I just find the decent ones funny. Any joke with a specific degeratory remark (such as the n word) is an obvious no-no.

 

...You're jumping the gun. I didn't state mods are 'jumping' on me in this particular topic.