Daft

Veganism

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Dude I'm making diary, wheat and nut free goodies on Thursday night (not sure what yet but cupcakes, cookies etc). Come hunt me down.

 

Ah man, that sounds so good. I haven't had like, cake or brownies or any other tasty treats for months. Too bad I'm in Manchester! =(

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Selfridges (London but presumably Manchester too) do a number of free from stuff. For one meringues are fine and they do good ones but also they sell some small cupcakes that are actually made of veg. Forget the name though.

 

And other places will do stuff but don't know Manchester that well.

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My brother was vegie and then vegan. He eventually went back to meat though.

 

The thing that most vegans gloss over is that it's an incredibly imbalanced diet. My brother was constantly compensating every time he made a meal, always finding alternatives that, at the end of the day, sought to emulate an omnivorous diet. And on top of that, it was socially disastrous. Everywhere we went, his diet was a cause of annoyance and shit food. It was unhealthy, too. Despite his best efforts, he only ever lost weight and never looked healthy. Pale skin and so on. And the thing is that he was good at it too. Everything my brother does he takes very, very seriously so despite all the research and supplements and discipline it was essentially a failure.

 

The truth is that we're omnivores. We have the teeth to eat meat and the eyes to hunt it. Obviously, a heavy meat diet with not enough veg is shit - it's a consequence of easy living and most people just don't understand where food comes from. But take a hint from nature and eat meat in moderation as part of a balanced, vegetable centred diet and you'll be fine.

 

There's nothing wrong with eating meat, and there's ethical means of sourcing your food if you want. Respect your food and nature and you're ok.

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And on top of that, it was socially disastrous. Everywhere we went, his diet was a cause of annoyance and shit food.

 

In fairness...you live in the north ;)

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Too bad a human vegan would live longer than a human carnivore.

 

I'm down with that.

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Good points here and there, people :)

 

So what exactly constitutes as "prevention" of animal suffering? The moral vegetarians (not the ones who do it for religious or health reasons) love to chant "we're trying to limit the suffering." What the hell does that mean? If you eat wheat or soy, you're not limiting anything. Unless you plant, grow and pick your own crops, you're not doing everything you can to "limit" the suffering. You know deep down that you could help limit a whole lot more suffering, but you've chosen not to. You've chosen not to because your lifestyle is too convenient, and you'd have to give up too much, but nevermind that--you have a conscience to feel good about, and you can't let a little thing like millions of violent deaths of field animals get in the way of your moral trip.

 

That's just typical pessimist logic; if you can't save the whole world at once, no point doing anything. Guys like maddox are just spouting shit on people who at least try to do something, because they don't have the balls to do anything themselves. Too scared of being criticised by others like THEMSELVES...

 

The fact is that currently all our actions have some sort of negative consequenses, living beings will die due harvesting just crops etc. Thus the logical thing is to MINIMISE THE IMPACT...where you draw the line is of course up to you. But whining in your cellar about how nothing matters and insulting those who do care and at least try to do something? Fucking weak.

 

That aside, of course, we've reached a stage of civilisation where we can exist without meat for food (other applications aside), but it's still kind of controversial whether this is better or worse for you. I think the jury's still out on vegetarianism v.s. omnivery, but it's clear that if you do eat meat, you should restrict the amount you consume, especially if it's red meat. And I'm pretty sure that veganism (as opposed to vegetarianism) is fairly indefensible in terms of being healthier, as so many aspects of a balanced diet have to be cut out and replaced. And while (potentially meaty) supplements can go some of the way to redressing these problems, they're not absorbed nearly as efficiently when they're not in food, so it's still kind of problematic.

 

Yeah, it is very interesting...ok, meat has played a huge part in our development, but is that relevant anymore? Like you say, we do have a choice now...

 

(interesting consideration: could people in the future view meat-eaters in the same way we view slave-traders?)
Exactly what I've been thinking...Slaves, non-Christians, blacks, coloured, women, gays, animals...what's the difference, and where's the line? Ok, the argument has been thrown that it is the human race. But why? Like Danny said, suppose aliens come here someday. Do we have the right to exploit them or vice versa? Or is live just a game or survival where the strong beat the weak and do what they want?

 

Well this is my take. We've now reached the point where we can sustain our bodies with little or no meat. Hence no survival reason to uphold that diet. We've also reached, at least partially, the point where we can co-exist with other people, i.e. our neighbours, other cities, other nations etc. Hence no need for violence and killing each others. We have systems for producing food, shelter, medicine etc etc. This is like the basic needs part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We have some security, so now we can evolve some other parts of our beings, like love, compassion, forgiveness etc. Animals don't have that, because they're still trapped in fighting for their very basic needs. Thus what does it mean to be a human in the first place? For me, it's evolving beyond that basic stage of "survival of the fittest", i.e. transcending the violent tendencies of nature JUST BECAUSE WE CAN. We have the intelligence, the talent, the ingenuity and heart to be much more than just animals, who in a way are just handicapped living beings due to their limiting circumstances. Just as we are taking care of our own sick, handicapped and old, it's just natural to extend that same love to other living beings as well, inferior OR superior. After all, they can feel the love and pain just as we can. We are all in the same boat, so being kind to all makes total sense, especially if the environment is now conducive to that!

 

Think of it like Pokémon: do we want to stay stuck in the modern caveman form, or evolve into something even more awesome? Universal love and compassion...now that's fulfilling the whole human potential! :)

Edited by Ville

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We needed to work together as a unit, as humans, because that is one of the main things that allowed us to become the "fittest". So I think that biologically we are made to want approval and a sense of community, as that inherent need is what kept us together and at the top of the food chain. Now I can agree that pain is terrible, and I don't wish it upon anyone (obvious exception of the people who associate pain with pleasure or have bad wiring in their brains that make it not terrible). Anything on earth is expendable, seeing as there is no true purpose (objectively), but we as humans have our need for community, and so are nice to each other. But with other animals, that isn't there for us. We don't feel as attached to a mouse, or a dog or a cow, especially one we haven't even seen. Of course we can feel attached after a while of cohabitation, but that's not important right now.

 

What I'm trying to say is that animals are expendable, as is everything else. And it is easier to exploit them, than it is to put the effort into finding alternatives. Sure if you have a passion for animals and want them all to remain alive, then you have the motivation to find these alternatives. But most people aren't. Me being one. Meat is tasty, it's good for you in the right amounts, and it's plentiful. It is a big part of our culture and our daily routines and it is easy to acquire.

 

Also because humans have a goal of development and exploration, we seek to learn new things, invent new things and explore new things. We see other humans as useful in that regard, since they can expand our common knowledge and create new interesting things. Other animals can't, and so to us, in our lives they hold less value. This lower value means that there is no real reason to not exploit them, because it only helps further our learning, exploration, etc.

 

Sure you can live without eating meat if you think that killing animals is wrong. But that would be your subjective opinion on something that doesn't have a true right answer, and the killing will continue to happen until enough of the population agrees. I don't see a reason why we shouldn't kill animals. I don't think the animals should suffer, but if they just get one quick cattle prod to the head and there is no suffering involved, why not. I feel pretty indifferent to it.

 

I could easily become a vegetarian, but I have no reason to. If being a vegetarian was easier, and cheaper, then I would probably be one. But that's just me being lazy.

Edited by Diageo

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This song is like my life-story.

 

I'm Mrs. I-don't-care-if-I-get-gaseous

I'm Mrs. OMG-that-murdering-fascist

I'm Mrs. extra-texture-delicious-skin

I'm Mrs. leave-the-fat-and-gristle-in

 

They say I should take to eating plants and seeds and things without parents

Edited by Paj!

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Vegetarianism is generally cheaper.

 

If I have to make something myself, I generally either have noodles, toast with cheese or wedges. Then sometimes Pizza if it's in the oven. So I'm generally vegetarian, until my mam comes in and puts chicken into every meal you could think of. Then there's the lovely lovely fast food restaurants, and you just have to have meat there.

 

Carrots, or apples may be cheaper on their own. But they get boring on their own pretty quickly.

 

Not really a retort. It's just that I don't really cook or buy groceries so I don't know.

 

But yes, meat is tasty.

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But meat is tasty.

 

So's your face.

 

If I have to make something myself, I generally either have noodles, toast with cheese or wedges. Then sometimes Pizza if it's in the oven. So I'm generally vegetarian, until my mam comes in and puts chicken into every meal you could think of. Then there's the lovely lovely fast food restaurants, and you just have to have meat there.

 

Carrots, or apples may be cheaper on their own. But they get boring on their own pretty quickly.

 

Not really a retort. It's just that I don't really cook or buy groceries so I don't know.

 

But yes, meat is tasty.

 

So what you're saying is...you're too lazy to cook decent food and you're basing your judgement about cost effectiveness, and by extent tastiness, on this?

 

Learn to cook dude :heh:

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This song is like my life-story.

 

I'm Mrs. I-don't-care-if-I-get-gaseous

I'm Mrs. OMG-that-murdering-fascist

I'm Mrs. extra-texture-delicious-skin

I'm Mrs. leave-the-fat-and-gristle-in

 

They say I should take to eating plants and seeds and things without parents

Unless it's KFC the skin needs to come off.

Edited by EEVILMURRAY

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So's your face.

 

 

 

So what you're saying is...you're too lazy to cook decent food and you're basing your judgement about cost effectiveness, and by extent tastiness, on this?

 

Learn to cook dude :heh:

 

No, cooking is effort.

 

I can base tastiness on restaurant meals and other things. I thought ready made meals with meat were cheaper than buying ready made meals without meat or cooking with vegetables. I don't know why. I don't really buy groceries. I can concede if you want, I never put any research into the prices of various groceries. Vegetarianism is probably cheaper.

 

The main point is that I have no reason not to eat meat.

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Huh. I've been vegan for almost 10 years, I guess about 10 in November or something like that.

I don't tend to talk about it though, because people sometimes give you shit, as if they're offended you don't eat the same things they do, so there are people I've known for a long time who don't realise it. I don't have any friends who are vegan.

Edited by RoadKill

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You really think the only source of protein is animal products? Oh dear

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Can vegans eat milk, eggs or cheese? If not then they are stuck with rice and beans then? I know plenty of protein sources but you'd have to eat a lot of beans to get the same protein as a steak.

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Semen is full of protein right?

 

 

 

I hope it is anyway, or else it makes it pretty pointless me having.....etc....

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Semen is full of protein right?

 

 

 

I hope it is anyway, or else it makes it pretty pointless me having.....etc....

 

You've lost your spirit, it's a sad day on n-e.

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