darksnowman

Super Smash Bros. 3DS / Wii U

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Oh, that. I do that all the time. Seems like such an obvious thing. What does DI stand for then? (You don't have to answer that if it seems too tedious)

 

It stands for Directional Influence :) It seems obvious but if you can DI (i.e. press the control stick in a favourable direction) on the frame you get hit, you can become very difficult to kill. You can even DI into the ground on specific frames, as seen in this incredible video:

 

 

Here, the Jigglypuff DI's into the ground on the frame she is hit and then techs (press's R when hitting the ground to get up immediately/get invincibility frames), before getting that incredible kill.

 

Funnily enough, DI is currently NOT in Smash Wii U/3DS. This means that Shiek can use her forward tilt on any character multiple times and it's impossible to get out of until 50%.

 

Fox can do that same on any character, particularly the heavier ones, from 0% to about 40%.

 

I'm sure it will make it's way in though. It seems a bit silly to not have it in if characters will just constantly combo you at low perfect and there's nothing you can do to escape it.

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Oh, that. I do that all the time. Seems like such an obvious thing. What does DI stand for then? (You don't have to answer that if it seems too tedious)

 

Directional Input

 

EDIT: Influence! Yeah, that was the thing :heh:

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It stands for Directional Influence :) It seems obvious but if you can DI (i.e. press the control stick in a favourable direction) on the frame you get hit, you can become very difficult to kill. You can even DI into the ground on specific frames, as seen in this incredible video:

 

 

Here, the Jigglypuff DI's into the ground on the frame she is hit and then techs (press's R when hitting the ground to get up immediately/get invincibility frames), before getting that incredible kill.

 

Funnily enough, DI is currently NOT in Smash Wii U/3DS. This means that Shiek can use her forward tilt on any character multiple times and it's impossible to get out of until 50%.

 

Fox can do that same on any character, particularly the heavier ones, from 0% to about 40%.

 

I'm sure it will make it's way in though. It seems a bit silly to not have it in if characters will just constantly combo you at low perfect and there's nothing you can do to escape it.

 

Oh, that was not what I was thinking of at all, I was under the impression it was just moving to the side a bit after getting launched.

While impressive, sure. I can't help but feel that was not meant to be a part of the game. I mean, it makes no sense how that is even possible. (Yeah, I know, looking for sense in Smash Bros is futile)

 

But it gives the impression that techniques like that were never meant to happen.

(I feel the whole combo argument is the reason why there are infinite air dodges in Brawl. A feature of which I love. Wouldn't being able to dodge a combo atempt with a well-timed air dodge, allow you to escape from the combo?)

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Oh, that was not what I was thinking of at all, I was under the impression it was just moving to the side a bit after getting launched.

While impressive, sure. I can't help but feel that was not meant to be a part of the game. I mean, it makes no sense how that is even possible. (Yeah, I know, looking for sense in Smash Bros is futile)

 

But it gives the impression that techniques like that were never meant to happen.

(I feel the whole combo argument is the reason why there are infinite air dodges in Brawl. A feature of which I love. Wouldn't being able to dodge a combo atempt with a well-timed air dodge, allow you to escape from the combo?)

 

It's definitely deliberately put into the game as it's coded quite extensively and stops certain moves from being overpowered. Here's a better example:

 

 

Fox can do an up throw-> up air combo on most characters and in many cases it will lead to a kill. The up air is actually made up for two seperate hits; one weak and one significantly stronger that leads to a kill. In the above video, the Mewtwo player presses up on the control stick on the frame that fox hits with the first part of the up air, meaning he moves away from the second hit and avoids getting KO'd. It's very difficult to do it everytime..the pro's can DI every single move and throw in a game, preventing the game from being a 'dial a combo' type game such as Tekken/SF.

 

Infinite air dodges don't really prevent combos; the lack of hit stun is what prevents them. Hitstun is back in Smash 4 but not at the levels seen in Smash 64, where you could pull of some incredible combos.

 

 

Ah man..I LOVE how different the Smash games are from one another :D Also, the improvement from Smash 64 to Melee is incredible! They were released like 18 month apart....!

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Oh, that was not what I was thinking of at all, I was under the impression it was just moving to the side a bit after getting launched.

While impressive, sure. I can't help but feel that was not meant to be a part of the game. I mean, it makes no sense how that is even possible. (Yeah, I know, looking for sense in Smash Bros is futile)

 

Yeah, the "Advanced" forms of DI are usually in the moment of the throw/launch, and are used to keep the opponent guessing (did he go up? Left? Down? How far should I jump to continue this combo?). It's very subtle, so hard to notice.

 

I think stuff like this is intentional, in a way, as they are quirks of a fluid physics engine. Designers might've thought of making movement more varied with a small touch, and advanced players notice all the small touches to master a game.

 

But it gives the impression that techniques like that were never meant to happen.

(I feel the whole combo argument is the reason why there are infinite air dodges in Brawl. A feature of which I love. Wouldn't being able to dodge a combo atempt with a well-timed air dodge, allow you to escape from the combo?)

 

...Which brings us to the real reason there are infinite air dodges in Brawl: directional air dodges and Wavedashing.

 

Wavedashing is controversial. It's really one of those intentional quirks of the physics engine. Basically, you know how, in Melee, if you air dodge into the ground (diagonally), your character lands and slides? Fluid movement, right?

 

Advanced players noticed that, with a hop and an immediate diagonal air dodge, your character goes into sliding almost instantly. And those slides are faster and quicker than running, or dodging.

It's very hard to do, but adds a new layer to matches, so it became the symbol of the divide between Casual and Competitive players.

(Even though there were characters who don't slide, like Jigglypuff or Ganondorf, and they were still good. But I digress.)

 

Was it a fair exploit? Was it just too much? Regardless, Sakurai felt it had to go for Brawl, so he redesigned the whole air-dodge mechanic.

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Infinite air dodges don't really prevent combos; the lack of hit stun is what prevents them. Hitstun is back in Smash 4 but not at the levels seen in Smash 64, where you could pull of some incredible combos.

 

 

Ah man..I LOVE how different the Smash games are from one another :D Also, the improvement from Smash 64 to Melee is incredible! They were released like 18 month apart....!

 

Had to stop watching second vid halfway through. Brought a tear to my eye thinking of the great memories I had with my mates playing smash 64. And also how great Link and Samus were in that game. Just been downhill for them since then...

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Had to stop watching second vid halfway through. Brought a tear to my eye thinking of the great memories I had with my mates playing smash 64. And also how great Link and Samus were in that game. Just been downhill for them since then...

 

I feel that way about Melee :)

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I feel that way about Melee :)

 

Ah yeah, Melee did keep the fun times going. Think that was when they peaked really. Really hope those times return somewhat in Wii U Smash which really needs a better name.

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Pic Of The Day

 

zlCfzSHa4u8w2qzeCh

 

"Pic of the day. The Mii Gunner in his suit. Looking sharp! The arm cannon's design will change depending on the outfit, but the attacks and projectiles will be the same."

Edited by Wii

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zlCfzSHa24M8aIQK45

 

Pic of the day. The Mii Gunner in his suit. Looking sharp! The arm cannon's design will change depending on the outfit, but the attacks and projectiles will be the same.

Edited by Serebii

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So yeah, Mii in a suit, and Rosalina in a nice white dress.

 

I take it we'll be seeing plenty of alternate colours/costumes for now? Maybe we reached the point when they finally started adding them?

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I share some of your sentiments @Glen\-i, but I appreciate that they DID end up in the game and that it led to the more 'competitive' play that created the whole smash tourney sort of scene, that's pretty awesome and so I don't mind it quite so much in that respect.

 

I must say, I don't recall there being infinite air dodges in Brawl? Sure it's like melee/doing an up+b where it essentially locks you out from stuff until you land?

 

EDIT:Hmm, seems I missed some posts in the thread somehow. Maybe an old loaded page.

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I must say, I don't recall there being infinite air dodges in Brawl? Sure it's like melee/doing an up+b where it essentially locks you out from stuff until you land?

 

In Melee, you can only airdodge once, which locks you from stuff. In Brawl, you can airdodge and still do stuff afterwards.

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Ah man..I LOVE how different the Smash games are from one another :D Also, the improvement from Smash 64 to Melee is incredible! They were released like 18 month apart....!

 

Yeah, I love the original N64 game for how simple it is to play and yet how so meaty and impactful all the moves are and how there's a lot of depth with each stage. It's a shame that most people don't give it a fair shake these days because it's so lacking in terms of content, cause it's actually really fun to play and really distinct from the other games in the series...

 

... Which also makes me a bit disappointed in how similar to Brawl SSB4 looks. It really looks like they took Brawl and just built on top of it, rather than starting from scratch like they did with all of the previous games (look at just how many Final Smash moves and assist trophies look to be straight up re-used from Brawl - albeit with updated graphics of course)

 

I share some of your sentiments @Glen\-i, but I appreciate that they DID end up in the game and that it led to the more 'competitive' play that created the whole smash tourney sort of scene, that's pretty awesome and so I don't mind it quite so much in that respect.

 

I don't mind it much either; after all, Sakurai's games are all about options. His main focus when creating games is making sure that the player gets to carve the experience that they want to play themselves; so the idea of the "tourney scene" sits fine with me since it comes simply as a result of people settling on a preferred style of play - I just dislike it when people put this form of play on a pedestal as being the one "true" way of playing the game; especially when that wasn't Sakurai's intention to begin with (I also generally dislike the FGC's exclusionist nature in general too and the idea of anyone bowing to their wishes exclusively, or even being expected to and criticized for not doing so, just outright pisses me off - that moment during the Invitational where that one Smash player actually had the nerve to go to Sakurai and offer him the proposition to "help" him balance the game was just the most utterly cringeworthy and disgusting thing; just simply unbelievable :nono: - Especially after seeing how incredibly bad they were at playing 4 player :laughing:).

 

I must say, I don't recall there being infinite air dodges in Brawl? Sure it's like melee/doing an up+b where it essentially locks you out from stuff until you land?

 

It is infinite, but it doesn't push you in a direction like in Melee; there's also a small cooldown period between dodges where you can't dodge again - but you can still choose to attack at any point after you air dodge.

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The problem I have with Brawl is that it's too slow, you can't do combos and the game is very defensive. Infinite air dodges don't help matters... I've read online that in the new Smash bros there is a landing lag when you do an air dodge so it's actually possible to punish people now. If any of you guys have a hacked Wii you really should give Project M a try. It's basically Brawl but with Melee physics, it feels so fun to play. They've also changed some of the characters' moves to make them stronger so it's not just a pick between Metaknight, Snake and Game & Watch.

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If any of you guys have a hacked Wii you really should give Project M a try.
Does it work with the PAL version of Brawl yet?

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Does it work with the PAL version of Brawl yet?

 

I had to get an import copy of Brawl... That's why you need a hacked Wii, so it can play the USA version of the game.

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The problem I have with Brawl is that it's too slow, you can't do combos and the game is very defensive. Infinite air dodges don't help matters... I've read online that in the new Smash bros there is a landing lag when you do an air dodge so it's actually possible to punish people now. If any of you guys have a hacked Wii you really should give Project M a try. It's basically Brawl but with Melee physics, it feels so fun to play. They've also changed some of the characters' moves to make them stronger so it's not just a pick between Metaknight, Snake and Game & Watch.

 

Yeah I have Project M installed on one of my Wiis and it is fun... But it also has a host of problems for me (and these are all ones that @Glen\-i will surely back me up on here...), most notable of all are the stages; which have now basically all been turned into different skins of Battlefield/Final Destination. While it is fun in of itself (and no doubt the key inspiration for including FD versions of all stages in SSB4), it is really transparently geared towards the "tourney scene's" preferred way of playing and doesn't cater towards anyone else. They sucked all the fun out of the stages for anyone who isn't the type who thinks nothing but "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination".

 

The character changes are also really cool and amazingly well done, but they're also all really arbitrary. Ironically, for all the complaints about Metaknight being overpowered in Brawl, he is actually one of the few characters who recieved next to no changes at all - instead (for some god-only-knows-what reason), they felt the need to horribly nerf and pretty much destroy Squirtle (seriously! He's basically useless now!)

 

It's weird and random, but it is a load of fun. I would never recommend it over vanilla Brawl, but it is definately worth your time. It's great fun and a nice twist on regular Brawl that does go a long way towards making it feel fresh and new again (it's worth it just to try out Ryu Nu Lucario - it's just the most ridiculous thing :laughing: - he even has a new move that is activated by pressing A and B at the same time when his aura is full! :o )

 

The new animations and win poses are first class too - Diddy's new victory animations are just... YES! :D

Edited by Dcubed

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I agree about the stages, the changes they made to the Brawl stages are pretty rubbish and I need to figure out how to bring back the regular ones.

 

They gave Squirtle a new bubble move that trips opponents up, you should use it more often if you think Squirtle is bad. It lets you start up any combo, just jump in and hit them with a bubble then they're completely at your mercy... Metaknight and Snake aren't as strong as they used to be, Snake has a tranq gun now instead of his nikita missiles and Metaknight's tornado moves don't last as long so you can't just spam them. His teleport attack is a lot stronger now however. As a Sonic player I love what they've done to him, making his homing attack useful and changing his 2 spin dashes so there's actually a difference between them now.

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... Which also makes me a bit disappointed in how similar to Brawl SSB4 looks. It really looks like they took Brawl and just built on top of it, rather than starting from scratch like they did with all of the previous games (look at just how many Final Smash moves and assist trophies look to be straight up re-used from Brawl - albeit with updated graphics of course)

 

That's probably where the borrowing ends. They start fresh for every Smash game.

 

Just take the characters for example. The returning characters are completely remade each time. Attacks, sounds, animations etc. Then you think about how they interact with the new characters, are there any clear advantages/disadvantages, how they handle on stages, items and so on.

 

That's why balancing the roster takes such a long time to get right. There are far too many factors to consider, if they simply built on top of the previous game hardly anything will change. Each game would feel almost the same, and we clearly know that isn't the case.

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I agree about the stages, the changes they made to the Brawl stages are pretty rubbish and I need to figure out how to bring back the regular ones.

 

They gave Squirtle a new bubble move that trips opponents up, you should use it more often if you think Squirtle is bad. It lets you start up any combo, just jump in and hit them with a bubble then they're completely at your mercy... Metaknight and Snake aren't as strong as they used to be, Snake has a tranq gun now instead of his nikita missiles and Metaknight's tornado moves don't last as long so you can't just spam them. His teleport attack is a lot stronger now however. As a Sonic player I love what they've done to him, making his homing attack useful and changing his 2 spin dashes so there's actually a difference between them now.

 

Yeah I love Squirtle in project M but he's too fast for me to control!

 

That's probably where the borrowing ends. They start fresh for every Smash game.

 

Just take the characters for example. The returning characters are completely remade each time. Attacks, sounds, animations etc. Then you think about how they interact with the new characters, are there any clear advantages/disadvantages, how they handle on stages, items and so on.

 

That's why balancing the roster takes such a long time to get right. There are far too many factors to consider, if they simply built on top of the previous game hardly anything will change. Each game would feel almost the same, and we clearly know that isn't the case.

 

Smash 4 uses Brawl's entire physics engine. The only difference is that they've increased the weight of the characters slightly, but it's literally a copy and paste.

 

Think of it like a new FIFA; essentially a similar game with a few changes to separate it apart.

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...Which brings us to the real reason there are infinite air dodges in Brawl: directional air dodges and Wavedashing.

 

Wavedashing is controversial. It's really one of those intentional quirks of the physics engine. Basically, you know how, in Melee, if you air dodge into the ground (diagonally), your character lands and slides? Fluid movement, right?

 

Advanced players noticed that, with a hop and an immediate diagonal air dodge, your character goes into sliding almost instantly. And those slides are faster and quicker than running, or dodging.

It's very hard to do, but adds a new layer to matches, so it became the symbol of the divide between Casual and Competitive players.

(Even though there were characters who don't slide, like Jigglypuff or Ganondorf, and they were still good. But I digress.)

 

Was it a fair exploit? Was it just too much? Regardless, Sakurai felt it had to go for Brawl, so he redesigned the whole air-dodge mechanic.

 

Wavedashing is the one thing I do know about competitive Smash. I would put myself in the "Too far" catagory. Then again, I love that infinite Air Dodge.

 

Yeah I have Project M installed on one of my Wiis and it is fun... But it also has a host of problems for me (and these are all ones that @Glen\-i will surely back me up on here...),

 

Oh boy! I finally have an opportunity to talk about Project M! What a ridiculously hit-and-miss affair!

 

most notable of all are the stages; which have now basically all been turned into different skins of Battlefield/Final Destination. While it is fun in of itself (and no doubt the key inspiration for including FD versions of all stages in SSB4), it is really transparently geared towards the "tourney scene's" preferred way of playing and doesn't cater towards anyone else. They sucked all the fun out of the stages for anyone who isn't the type who thinks nothing but "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination".

 

This is easily the worst thing about Project M. Almost every stage in this mod is bland and boring. (Except, somewhat predictably, the Melee stages)

 

I mean, in what universe is this an "improvement" to the Brawl version?

 

green-hill-zone.png

 

That's the entire stage, that one block with a swinging platform over it. it's insulting to anyone who likes the variety of stages Smash Bros games have.

Disgusting...

 

And it's not just this stage. None of the redesigned stages benefit from it. Battlefield and Final Destination (That even got redesigned a tad, it uses the Melee layout which is nowhere near as epic as Brawl's. Seriously, did they not see the sunrise background?) is all well and good. Not every stage has to be chaotic, but COME ON!

 

The character changes are also really cool and amazingly well done, but they're also all really arbitrary. Ironically, for all the complaints about Metaknight being overpowered in Brawl, he is actually one of the few characters who recieved next to no changes at all - instead (for some god-only-knows-what reason), they felt the need to horribly nerf and pretty much destroy Squirtle (seriously! He's basically useless now!)

 

The characters are the best thing about Project M... Well, most of them...

Squirtle is such an outlandish case, it's almost comical.

 

I should point out that Squirtle is one of my mains in Vanilla Brawl (Lucas, Toon Link and Wolf are the others) He was incredibly fluid and a ridiculously quick fighter, which I loved to death.

So naturally, he was one of the first fighters I tried out on Project M. The website claims that he has good mobility, but this just isn't true. He feels slow, clunky and is clearly more about being defensive and withdrawing through projectiles then stringing together relentless attacks.

 

In other words, he sucks. He doesn't even have a Final Smash. At first, I thought it was reasonable, Pokemon Trainer's Final Smash wouldn't work when the Pokemon are serperate characters.

But then Roy (Who is fantastic in Project M, seriously. The best Fire Emblem character in Smash history now) and Mewtwo came along and they DO have Final Smashes. Why? Oh right, because Melee...

Roy's Final Smash does make me smile and really makes you appreciate the effort gone into it though.

 

Squirtle is an extreme example, but other characters seem to suffer a tad in certain areas.

 

Toon Link is basically Young Link now, which is pure Melee pandering because Toon Link is way better! Sure, he has a few cool moves, the hurricane spin and the jump attack are very nice. But why on earth did they get rid of the down thrust? It was brilliant and helped to distinguish him from Link.

 

Speaking of Melee pandering. Mr. Game & Watch suffers a bit from this as well. You remember in Brawl, how his Up + B had a parachute at the end that you could easily cancel out of and continue attacking? Not there anymore. I can seriously think of no justifiable reason for this other than "That's how it was in Melee"

 

Wolf's gun goes even slower now... DCubed and I always use to make fun of his gun in Brawl. Dubbing it the "Crappy Beam"

Now we dub it the "Crappier Beam"

He's still a good character and I'm sure to miss him when he is inevitably cut from the new Smash.

 

I'm sure there are a few more minor odd changes, but those are the ones that stand out.

 

It's weird and random, but it is a load of fun. I would never recommend it over vanilla Brawl, but it is definately worth your time. It's great fun and a nice twist on regular Brawl that does go a long way towards making it feel fresh and new again (it's worth it just to try out Ryu Nu Lucario - it's just the most ridiculous thing :laughing: - he even has a new move that is activated by pressing A and B at the same time when his aura is full! :o )

 

If Squirtle got shafted, then Lucario got all the love. He is a COMPLETELY different character in Project M, so much so that I like him even more than Lucas! He is blatently Street Fighter's Ryu. But they didn't want to use Ryu because of the whole "Not using characters that weren't in Brawl and Melee" thing.

 

Most of the characters have a lot of nice new moves and touches. Wario springs to mind, Lucas has a move that I swear Wii Fit Trainer nicked. Ivysaur is amazingly unique. Charizard doesn't completely suck! Most of the characters are actual improvements. The only reason I play Project M is because of the characters....

 

The new animations and win poses are first class too - Diddy's new victory animations are just... YES! :D

 

...Oh, and for this. Some of the nods to characters seem so obvious after seeing it in Project M.

The alternate costumes are also well made, even if they can cause the game to crash when multiple people use them...

 

So yes, I recommend Project M. But it's Melee air dodge, it's sometimes damaging and baffling changes to characters and it's GOD-AWFUL stages stop it from topping Brawl.

(Although it is more fun than Melee, and that's saying something. Whenever Melee is suggested, I always think "Can't I just play Project M instead?)

 

Sorry for the ridiculously long post...

 

They gave Squirtle a new bubble move that trips opponents up, you should use it more often if you think Squirtle is bad. It lets you start up any combo, just jump in and hit them with a bubble then they're completely at your mercy...

 

Take this from a guy who mains Squirtle in Brawl.

 

That Bubble move doesn't even come close to rectifying the horrendous downgrade he got. It's the ONLY decent thing about him. Everything else he does is better in Brawl.

 

Yeah I love Squirtle in project M but he's too fast for me to control!

 

Funny, I think he's too slow.

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Complaining that Project M is too geared towards competitive Smash is like complaining that Citizen Kane doesn't have enough explosions.

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