NINTENDO and Fanservice

[Fused King]

I was wondering whether or not you guys think if NINTENDO is removed too far from their fans.

 

It dawned on me that there are multiple developers who use social media (+e-mail) to let their fans and other enthusiasts about their games voice their concerns about specific gaming projects.

Not ONLY concerns, of course. Improvements (form a fan's perspective) when a sequel is announced usually get its fair share of attention from developers.

 

It also occured to me that NINTENDO, though trying to be loyal to their fans by providing sequels to their famous franchises, never seem to exactly engage with their fans via social media or their own estabilished sites.

 

NINTENDO love to do their own thing, for I never heard any talk of any developer there (or even Miyamoto) state something along the lines of: 'So we really took into account some of the criticism gamers had on the previous game, and we aim to change that.'

It is usually their take on the matter that counts.

 

Which brings me to another point: How amazing would it be if NINTENDO actually held certain surveys about their franchises, or hear us out when it comes to creating balance in a Zelda game?

 

Now I know that, because NINTENDO likes to do their own thing, games pop up we didn't think possible and end up being totally amazing, but I think it would be nice to have a say in some projects they end up greenlighting.

 

As a small, yet fun, example I would like to call to the stand LITTLE KING'S STORY.

This particular GEM OF A GAME had about 100 fan-made monster drawings in the game as a collectable.

Cute, and involved:grin:

 

Now, .....HIT ME WITH YOUR EGOS!

[Ike]

Which brings me to another point: How amazing would it be if NINTENDO actually held certain surveys about their franchises, or hear us out when it comes to creating balance in a Zelda game?

 

No.

 

Nintendo of America did this and Tingle's Rosy Rupee-land didn't get released in America. Although I'm not that bothered since it did get released over here, but maybe it had a small impact on us getting the sequel.

 

SEGA listened to its fan and created Shadow the Hedgehog.

 

I agree Nintendo are still a bit closed off from the fans, but they are slowing starting to open up a bit. Microsoft has the Major Nelson blog, and Sony has the Playstation blog, but Nintendo still doesn't have anything like this.

[ShadowV7]

No.

 

I do not approve. Will make franchises worse.

[Mokong]

Nintendo made Wind Waker and people complained they wanted something more "real" so they made Twilight Princess and people complained it wasn't different.

 

Even if they took a more proactive approach to listening to the fans directly I bet you'll still get people who aren't happy.

[Adthegreat]

It's impossible to please everyone, and Nintendo knows this. It really also depends which audience they are trying to target, be it casual new gamers or long-time fans of the series.

 

What I do think they should do however, is add extra stuff for the "hardcore" fans, this doesn't have to even be too obtrusive. It could be like that Super Mario 64 level in SMG, a concept gallery or other similar stuff. Of course, this would be more effort for Nintendo, but this kind of fan service does not go unappreciated. Even easter eggs or cameos would be really fun, and wouldn't make it any less unfriendly to the new audience that may be targeted.

 

I'm not sure about the surveys, because other people would say things that I don't like :P. In a way it would remind me of Minecraft, where people suggest all manners of things that pop into their minds. Many of these things don't fit into the game-style and I fear that this would be the same case with these Nintendo surveys. What they could do, is give a bit more news about what they are working on, just to see the general reaction of the public.

 

But seriously, I hope that Nintendo already knows what we want

[darkjak]

I think that Nintendo need to do a whole lot of listening.

Nintendo fans have been asking for a Gran Turismo beater for 14 years and Nintendo haven't even made an attempt to answer the prayers. Nintendo keep launching stuff like Wii Music, while the Wii lacks F-Zero, Stafox, Waverace, 1080 among a very long list of other things.

 

Nintendo have also diminished the value of the Zelda franchise. Where basically all games up until Ocarina of Time (not counting the CD-i crap) were killer aps, Nintendo have now started to spit out too many Zelda games.

The reason TP received criticism wasn't that it was dark, I loved the graphics in that game. TP received criticism because it wasn't what a Zelda game was supposed to be in 2006. I'm afraid that neither Skyward Sword will be where it's supposed to be.

 

Firstly, we've been bombarded with Zelda games for the last decade. The Oracle-games (attempting to do a Pokémon-ish thing), the two frankly mediocre DS games, Crossbow Training, that GC Zelda you needed a GBA to play among many others. All this has made Zelda much less special. Anything with Zelda in its name should be THE killer app for a console. If a console is to receive a second Zelda, the second Zelda should be the NEW killer app for the system.

 

Let me explain. When Ocarina of Time was released, it pushed its console to the limit. The graphics were richly detailed and Nintendo pushed the interactivity farther than any other game had before. The first time I played it, I got stuck as I didn't realise that you could set fire to a stick and then use it to set fire to something else in a videogame. And the amount of cutscenes put all the PS1 games with FMV to shame. Plus that every single NPC in the entire game had something unique to say. And it was the first game with a day/night cycle and random weather. Basically, Nintendo did everything that wasn't supposed to be possible on cartridge based consoles.

 

What Nintendo have been doing since then has been to tweek the OoT formula. They've just made new levels and different graphics for a 12 year old game. And thus TP left a lot to ask. Why was the music still in Midi? Why did the overworld consist of tight passages rather than a single huge open area? Why didn't they use voices? Why weren't there any side quests? OK that the surroundings are dark, but why were they BLAND? Whose bright idea was it to put Kakariko in a narrow, brown canyon instead of having an interresting, open look in OoT style? Why was the castle town so small?

 

 

Beyond Zelda we have the question of Nintendo doing really stupid stuff with for example Starfox (on foot sections? drawing out where you should go with the stylus?) or the Excite series (Excitetrucks was an interresting deviation, Excitebots was just retarded, just give us a proper sequel to Excitebike 64!).

 

 

So yes, please ask! And ask the people who give two shits about what they buy!

[nekunando]

Nintendo fans have been asking for a Gran Turismo beater for 14 years and Nintendo haven't even made an attempt to answer the prayers.

 

F-Zero, Wave Race, 1080 Snowboarding, Excite Bike 64, Excite Truck and Mario Kart are all much more fun than any Gran Turismo. I think I, and many others, will survive just fine without a 'GT beater'

[Zechs Merquise]

F-Zero, Wave Race, 1080 Snowboarding, Excite Bike 64, Excite Truck and Mario Kart are all much more fun than any Gran Turismo. I think I, and many others, will survive just fine without a 'GT beater'

 

Totally. I've played GT5 and frankly it bored me to death! It looked lovely and I'm assured that it handles just how the real life versions of those cars would, but it didn't feel exciting at all.

[Mokong]

Totally. I've played GT5 and frankly it bored me to death! It looked lovely and I'm assured that it handles just how the real life versions of those cars would, but it didn't feel exciting at all.

 

That's what I don't get about GT, how people say "oh, it handles just like the real thing" when in all likely hood they are using some souped up ferrari that they've never driven in real life.

 

I too would take a 1080 and Wave Race over a GT styled game any day.

[killer kirby]

Nintendo should shut themselves away from all us assholes, we don't know what we are saying and most of the time it's stupid. Nintendo should make the games the way they want to. They are famous today for making what they do most and not listening to fans, and they should still do it.

[darkjak]

Totally. I've played GT5 and frankly it bored me to death! It looked lovely and I'm assured that it handles just how the real life versions of those cars would, but it didn't feel exciting at all.

 

That's simply enough because you're not car enthusiasts in real life. I on the other hand am a car enthusiast and if I could, I would spend my weekends at the race track. I have a 360 and I play Forza a lot.

 

To me, it's not the one or the other. While I like a game that contains pretty much every car I would ever dream of buying (and if it doesen't contain it, I can be sure that it'll become DLC very soon), I've enjoyed 1080 on the GC, Waverace on the N64 and F-Zero on both. What I haven't enjoyed at all, however has been Excitebots.

 

Nintendo are wealthy as trolls, so they can pretty much hire every single dude and gal whose finished studying game development on the planet and start churning out games!

[Ashley]

I suppose you have a point with their lack of social media usage.

 

However, things like Britain's Best Nintendo Gamer, the Pokémon launch, Kirby & DK giveaways, the 3DS launch event etc suggests to me they are good at engaging with fans in that way.

 

(and maybe Sony and MS are too but I don't really follow them)

[or else you will DIE]

When it comes to games, no.

 

Systems, yes.

[Magnus]

Wanting a "Gran Turismo beater" from Nintendo seems a bit strange. When have they ever made a realistic racing game? It's like asking for a Call of Duty beater from BioWare or a Super Mario beater from Valve.

 

But yeah, developers shouldn't listen to the hardcore fans. They're all a bunch of self-affirming idiots. They complain about any change and obsess over the stupidest details. If the hardcore fans had had their way, we would never have gotten The Wind Waker.

 

The paintings in Little King's Story and little things like Adthegreat mentioned are the way to go. I have a friend who's a huge Tomb Raider fan and he got his name in the Tomb Raider Legend (or Anniversary?) credits after entering a competition. Things like that are a great way to acknowledge the fans and make them feel included without giving them any real power.

[Tissue Town]

Totally. I've played GT5 and frankly it bored me to death! It looked lovely and I'm assured that it handles just how the real life versions of those cars would, but it didn't feel exciting at all.

 

That's because it's trying to replicate real life driving and physics on real life race tracks. It isn't called "Real Driving Sim" for nothing.

Comparing it to an arcade racer is just moronic.

[darkjak]

Wanting a "Gran Turismo beater" from Nintendo seems a bit strange. When have they ever made a realistic racing game? It's like asking for a Call of Duty beater from BioWare or a Super Mario beater from Valve.

Nintendo are a first party developer and they should go to any lengths to make sure their console has a competitive range of games. Sega never made realistic games either. Yet they released Sega GT and Shenmue.

 

A CoD-beater from Bioware would've been interesting. Even if they'd make a modern military shooter, it would still be a Bioware game and Bioware would undoubtedly have their own spin on things.v Just like if Nintendo were to make a GT-beater, I wouldn't actually want them to have real racetracks, Instead I'd like their levels to be very scenic, sort of how they are in Mariokart or the older Need for Speed games.

 

That Nintendo haven't done anything before shouldn't stop them. If so, then they never would've done the motion stuff.

But yeah, developers shouldn't listen to the hardcore fans. They're all a bunch of self-affirming idiots. They complain about any change and obsess over the stupidest details. If the hardcore fans had had their way, we would never have gotten The Wind Waker.

I think that developers should listen. However, that you listen doesen't mean you have to obey. I'm currently studying game development and I've had to take feedback on my work as well. At times it's just frankly been stupid feedback, but at times I've actually had to realise that my idea is flawed and that it needs to change. Nintendo on the other hand live in their own world and waste time and money on games that deminish their reputation.

 

I for one would have loved to see Nintendo go forward with the Zelda game they displayed at E3 2000. Quite simply a "realistic" Zelda with a much higher difficulty level than WW.

[LostOverThere]

Video game fans are amongst the stupidest people in the world. I do not want those wieners suggesting what goes in Nintendo games.

[Jonnas]

I think Nintendo could use a bit more fan-interaction, but shouldn't ever take the opinion "hardcore fans" seriously. Like people said, those guys can't come up with new ideas, and shoot down originality whenever they can.

 

Either way, Nintendo does listen to criticism, why do you think they made TP in the first place? They just know better than catering to fanboys all the time. If they had their way, there would be no Wind Waker, no Epic Yarn, no Metroid Prime, the more interesting characters in Smash Bros. wouldn't be there and, I am betting, no portable games (considering how the first thing that happens when one is announced is someone saying "Why couldn't it be on the Wii...?")

 

As for fan-interaction, a few steps could be made in that direction, like making online contests (for, say, WarioWare DIY), improving the online multiplayer on their games, opening suggestion polls for an announced game (in SSBB, Sonic was pretty much the only character who entered due to fan demand. Other became assist trophies), etc. Slowly, but surely, we have to believe.

 

Nintendo fans have been asking for a Gran Turismo beater for 14 years and Nintendo haven't even made an attempt to answer the prayers. Nintendo keep launching stuff like Wii Music, while the Wii lacks F-Zero, Stafox, Waverace, 1080 among a very long list of other things.

 

1. Your opinion =/= the majority's opinion. You're the only Nintendo fan I've seen that keeps clamouring for a realistic driver.

 

2. They launched Wii Music once. They don't "keep doing it". Also, they brought back Kirby, Donkey Kong and they keep evolving the Excite series, but you don't care, right?

 

Nintendo have also diminished the value of the Zelda franchise. Where basically all games up until Ocarina of Time (not counting the CD-i crap) were killer aps, Nintendo have now started to spit out too many Zelda games.

 

Declining quality of a series =/= Nintendo not listening to its fans

I also disagree on Zelda's quality declining, but that's besides the point.

 

Firstly, we've been bombarded with Zelda games for the last decade. The Oracle-games (attempting to do a Pokémon-ish thing), the two frankly mediocre DS games, Crossbow Training, that GC Zelda you needed a GBA to play among many others. All this has made Zelda much less special. Anything with Zelda in its name should be THE killer app for a console. If a console is to receive a second Zelda, the second Zelda should be the NEW killer app for the system.

 

1. You obviously don't know enough about Pokémon and/or the Oracle games if you just said that.

 

2. Spirit Tracks is awesome, you don't go dismissing it like that. And even if you think it is, it's still the finest adventure game on the DS, so you're kinda burying your own point, here.

 

What Nintendo have been doing since then has been to tweek the OoT formula. They've just made new levels and different graphics for a 12 year old game. And thus TP left a lot to ask. Why was the music still in Midi? Why did the overworld consist of tight passages rather than a single huge open area? Why didn't they use voices? Why weren't there any side quests? OK that the surroundings are dark, but why were they BLAND? Whose bright idea was it to put Kakariko in a narrow, brown canyon instead of having an interresting, open look in OoT style? Why was the castle town so small?

 

Why do you ignore the games that didn't make those mistakes?

Oh, right they were handheld...

 

Beyond Zelda we have the question of Nintendo doing really stupid stuff with for example [...] the Excite series (Excitetrucks was an interresting deviation, Excitebots was just retarded, just give us a proper sequel to Excitebike 64!).

 

Won't comment on Starfox, it's not my thing.

 

I love the fact that you keep dismissing certain games in a series, that happened to please a lot of fans, but you keep saying it's stupid because it's not exactly what you liked.

 

Nintendo not listening to you =/= Nintendo not listening to the majority

 

That's simply enough because you're not car enthusiasts in real life. I on the other hand am a car enthusiast and if I could, I would spend my weekends at the race track. I have a 360 and I play Forza a lot.

 

That might be, but asking for Nintendo to monopolize the genres is a bit unreasonable.

 

Not to mention...

 

Nintendo are a first party developer and they should go to any lengths to make sure their console has a competitive range of games. Sega [...] released Sega GT and Shenmue.

 

...just because a company ventures into other genres doesn't mean they will come out amazing, like you're asking. Is Sega GT better than Gran Turismo? Is Sonic Adventure on par with Super Mario 64? Did Virtua Fighter triumph over Tekken, or the other way around?

What about Sega's FPS...wait, I mean, Sega's collectible monsters RPG...no, it was their Kart gam...Argh!

 

Nintendo are wealthy as trolls, so they can pretty much hire every single dude and gal whose finished studying game development on the planet and start churning out games!

 

...Trolls aren't wealthy

 

That Nintendo haven't done anything before shouldn't stop them. If so, then they never would've done the motion stuff.

 

They felt they could do something good with the motion thing. They were right.

They never felt they could do a good racing sim, though. Otherwise, we would've seen it by now.

 

Point is, you can't just ask them to churn out an awesome new IP, creativity doesn't work like that. Even if your opinion was in the majority, Nintendo couldn't answer the pleads, because they simply couldn't make the game they were being asked for.

 

I think that developers should listen. However, that you listen doesen't mean you have to obey. I'm currently studying game development and I've had to take feedback on my work as well. At times it's just frankly been stupid feedback, but at times I've actually had to realise that my idea is flawed and that it needs to change. Nintendo on the other hand live in their own world and waste time and money on games that deminish their reputation.

 

1. Agree on mostly everything, except...

 

2. "No risking, no eating" (or so our saying goes) The reason they came out with awesome games in the past was because they tried something new. And to my knowledge, none of the games you criticised pissed you off for doing "same old, same old". If anything, it just shows they listened to criticism, and never made the same mistake twice.

 

I for one would have loved to see Nintendo go forward with the Zelda game they displayed at E3 2000. Quite simply a "realistic" Zelda with a much higher difficulty level than WW.

 

...And you got that from the trailer?

[Grazza]

A few different issues here. First, I'll hit Fused King with my ego...

 

You have some nice ideas there, the fan paintings in Little Kings Story were very cool. Overall, I'd say there's a big difference between knowing what I like/dislike and knowing what I want. If Nintendo had asked me, after Majora's Mask, what I wanted the next Zelda to be like, I'd have said "Adult Link, same visual style but better graphics" etc, etc... In other words, I do not have the imagination. Instead, they made Wind Waker, which was an absolute masterpiece and something which I could never have thought up. I enjoyed it even more than the N64 games.

 

On the other hand, I know I disliked that bloomin' overhead view of Castle Town in Twilight Princess, I know I disliked not having two analogue sticks (played the GC version, but it was designed as if the player did not have them) and I know I disliked not having shield control, after it had been done so brilliantly in previous games. In other words, Nintendo undid what they had themselves achieved!

 

Secondly, or else... makes a good point about hardware. The only aspect of the Wii that makes me think "Nintendo were right, I was wrong" is the pointing. Apart from that, there's nothing else, I'm afraid. Their best console, I feel, was the GameCube, and that was very "ordinary", conforming to industry standards such as competitive graphics, optical discs and a twin-analogue controller.

 

Thirdly, I don't want to pick on darkjak - you make some great points about how Zelda should always be cutting-edge. However, it (almost) still is! Let's disregard the handheld games and spin-offs, because most of them met expectations just fine. Let's also disregard Majora's Mask because a) it pushed technical boundaries even further than OOT and b) it was highly sensible to make a quick sequel to the best game of all time, using the same engine. Let's also disregard Wind Waker, because it delivered in every way. So, that just leaves one Zelda they've honestly dropped the ball with - Twilight Princess - and even that was just a second Zelda for the GameCube. Even Skyward Sword is a 3rd game using that sort of technology. If the first HD Zelda is bad, there'll be reasons for concern, but until then I'm not worried.

[Fused King]

1. Even though I mentioned the term 'Zelda' I'd like to ask the users not to turn this thread into a Zelda fan war.

I thank you.

 

2. I might have phrased my initial expectations regarding NINTENDO and their fans a tad wrongly.

I'm all for NINTENDO doing their own thing and letting them experiment with different kinds of gameplay/visuals etc...

 

Some examples given here (Better online/polls/easter eggs) are indeed a good way to go:)

 

Believe me, I wouldn't want Miyamoto saying: 'An internet user by the name of LulzFTW111!N!nty stated over and over again that the masses want an improved F-Zero GX with better graphics and online capabilities. Moved by his rightness I immediately phoned Iwata, who is currently forming a team under command of Masahiro Sakurai to recreate Super Smash Brothers Brawl WITHOUT the complaints we got from the greater Northern American Smash Community, and he replied that after our EAD teams were finished with Super Mario World 3D Online, The Legend of Zelda: Just like the Trailer 2000, and a hyper realisitic racing game that should trump Gran Turismo (so help me God) he will look into this F-Zero plan. Knowing that Iwata would be true to his word, I continued to be the awesome General Supervisor of NINTENDO that I am: roaming NINTENDO internet forums, taking note of any complaints made about our games as to be absolutely sure we cater to the hardcore fans. The latter term being the main force behind our innovation.'

 

I think that I more or less created this thread, because I still do not think NINTENDO has mastered the balance between original software, old-school franchises, motion control, and online.

 

Of course understandable, because they pioneered motion control into the gaming industry, thus taking a chance, which led their focus to be a bit all over the place.

 

My hopes are that most of it will come together in their new home console.

[Grazza]

Believe me, I wouldn't want Miyamoto saying: 'An internet user by the name of LulzFTW111!N!nty stated over and over again that the masses want an improved F-Zero GX with better graphics and online capabilities. Moved by his rightness I immediately phoned Iwata, who is currently forming a team under command of Masahiro Sakurai to recreate Super Smash Brothers Brawl WITHOUT the complaints we got from the greater Northern American Smash Community, and he replied that after our EAD teams were finished with Super Mario World 3D Online, The Legend of Zelda: Just like the Trailer 2000, and a hyper realisitic racing game that should trump Gran Turismo (so help me God) he will look into this F-Zero plan. Knowing that Iwata would be true to his word, I continued to be the awesome General Supervisor of NINTENDO that I am: roaming NINTENDO internet forums, taking note of any complaints made about our games as to be absolutely sure we cater to the hardcore fans. The latter term being the main force behind our innovation.'

 

Quite right too.

 

It'd distract them from making what we really want: "The Legend of Zelda: Just like the Trailer 2004".

[mcj metroid]

OH my when it comes to software, nintendo should NEVER listen to their fans. Others have stated why and I agree.

 

nintendo's biggest problem is communicating with western developers and publishers I find. During the gamecube era Nintendo had a fairly decent thing going which they called collaborations. It was where they were trying to phase out second-party made titles and focused on allowing third parties to make their games..

 

but with the exception of EA no western third parties were involved with this. This experiment had mixed results I'll admit.

 

Nintendo are a first party developer and they should go to any lengths to make sure their console has a competitive range of games. Sega never made realistic games either. Yet they released Sega GT and Shenmue.

 

This caused problems for sega as well though. Nintendo have a certain style to game creation. They put their own spin on things and that's why their software sells a lot.

 

Sega created a LOT of sports titles during the dreamcast era and EA got annoyed to the point where they never supported the system. A major problem for dreamcast. NIntendo has to be careful not to step on developers toes.

 

and who says sega never made any realistic games? On the saturn they had plenty of racing games and you could hardly call anything on the megadrive "realistic". The graphics were too primitive.

 

Sega were and are a VERY different company to nintendo. Sega spent a LOT more time trying to please the western audience than Nintendo.

[Jonnas]

nintendo's biggest problem is communicating with western developers and publishers I find. During the gamecube era Nintendo had a fairly decent thing going which they called collaborations. It was where they were trying to phase out second-party made titles and focused on allowing third parties to make their games..

 

You hit the nail in the head with this paragraph. It's just brilliant.

 

There isn't much else I can add, except... Nintendo should do those collaborations again. They gave us gems such as Minish Cap and F-Zero GX. It allowed other companies to give their spin on established Nintendo franchises, many times bettering them, simply because those companies had different perspectives on what should be done with the franchise, it gave us interesting games.

[Burny]

nintendo's biggest problem is communicating with western developers and publishers I find. During the gamecube era Nintendo had a fairly decent thing going which they called collaborations. It was where they were trying to phase out second-party made titles and focused on allowing third parties to make their games..

 

Thing is, those are still Nintendo franchises. Zelda - even when developed by third parties - is not suddenly going open world Action-RPG with multiple classes, level system and, online multiplayer. Nintendo is far too protective of their franchises for that. So for Nintendo it's basically a way to release more of their franchises without employing more internal dev teams and for the 3rd parties, it's a bit like a commission work. Such games are going to win nobody over other than the people, who are already into Nintendo games.

 

No amount of communication will win Nintendo the continued favor of large third parties, as long as they don't provide them with a system, that supports the design philosophies of their own main franchises. In the current generation that's advanced visual capabilities and online systems.

 

As for communication with fans, it's already a two way communication. Nintendo releases a game, the fans tear it to pieces in dedicated forums. They only have to skim through the forums, watch reviews etc. in order to know what people think of their games.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Burny

[Hamishmash]

I think perhaps they should see SOME complaints of games. For example my heart sank when images of the new Animal Crossing came out, and it had all the same furniture, etc. And I'm sure every review of this will mention that.