The war on terror

[Haden]

Saying Iran is anti Jewish is without meaning. Iran is a country not a person or group with shared values.

 

What is true is their current President did say he wanted to wipe Israel off the map and has hosted Holocaust Denial seminars. A very nasty man by any standards yet channel 4 let him do their Christmas Speech how deliciously ironic, they were obviously trying to be anti establishment and against nasty middle class daily telegraph readers. Yet I'd say after the election fiasco in Iran it was quite clearly proven to be a stupid decision.

[blender]

Saying Iran is anti Jewish is without meaning. Iran is a country not a person or group with shared values.

 

What is true is their current President did say he wanted to wipe Israel off the map and has hosted Holocaust Denial seminars. A very nasty man by any standards yet channel 4 let him do their Christmas Speech how deliciously ironic, they were obviously trying to be anti establishment and against nasty middle class daily telegraph readers. Yet I'd say after the election fiasco in Iran it was quite clearly proven to be a stupid decision.

 

As the apparent farce of their "democratic" elections prooved, it does not matter what the people or group think or want. What matters is what the "regime" and ayatollah thinks, wants and desires.

 

 

And now a very important note:

... there is a big difference between anti-jewish and anti-israel.

one is a religion, the other is a country created after ww2 (with disputed territory and disputed recognition). You must never be confused.

 

If i was a diplomat, there would be no wars

Edited July 29, 2009 by blender

[khilafah]

Iran said it wanted to wipe israel off the map- FACT

 

First of all did he really say that. Some people say the translation was wrong! But even if he did he is not saying all Jews should be killed. He is saying that the state of Israel needs to be removed. There are Jews that also say the same thing.

 

Yes there lives have been improved. I have seen this with my very own eyes. Afghanistan pree 2001 was full of warlords, so i do not see yor point. It is not pure anarchy outside Kabul. Certain areas are but not the entire country mostly just the south.

Isnt the thing with a dictatorship that the people cant do something about it? Hence why it has to be done by someone else? how can you vote someone out when as in Iraq there only one name on the ballot paper. or 2 as in other countrys they just rig the elections.

Its got nothing to do with the fact these countrys are muslim. Its the politics that go with them. The taliban braught along there own demise by refusing to do anything about al quida launching an attack on the US.

As for the drone attacks, if Pakistan would put there own house in order there would be no need for them. And this is what they have been doing in Swat.

 

If you are basing your views on the fact you are a muslim then you are daft. Suerly you can see what this minority of the muslim world is doing is wrong. I have served with muslims in afghanistan and they hated the taliban more than any 'white chrisitans' i served with.

 

yes there is no elections so voting out dictators is not an option.. It is about the masses with the help of people of influence etc rising up and removing them. If UK and the US really care about people not being able to vote out tyrants why do they support the dictators in egypt, saudi arabia, uzbekistan etc.

 

Also the one major factor is the US/UK and there allies are occupying muslim lands. This will never be accepted by the muslim world.

 

Pakistan has problems but that does not give america the right to attack. The pakistan government is a joke and that is the main reason why the country is a mess right now. It like most muslim governments are sub servant to the US and attacks its own people.

 

Yes there is a small minority which are taking part in terrorism and and yes the taliban have done some bad things.

 

But if you listen to washington and whitehall any group who call for islam and sharia and who are against democracy etc are seen as extremists.

Edited July 29, 2009 by khilafah

[danny]

There people and muslims who say the state of Iran needs to be removed and replace do you support that view as well?

[The fish]

As a muslim I think it is pretty obvious what my feelings are gonna be.

 

Not really - the two Iraqis I know both hate Saddam Hussein and were happy the Coalition invaded. Every Muslim I know holds similar views to my own about the Taliban.

 

 

They have caused more bloodshed and anarchy for the people. Afghanistan is a mess and they should leave. Let the people decide there own future just like Iraq.

 

Leaving instantly makes every death and injury worthless, much like Vietnam. By staying we are letting the people there have elections, and decide. That Taliban don't give a rats-arse about what the people want, they want power, regardless of how many people they have the kill or mutilate along the way.

 

The west know full well that Islam is on the rise, the general population in the muslim world want change and it is not secular liberal democracy. The people want the return of Islamic Government with sharia law.

 

In my experience, it's actually just a minority of nut-jobs who want Sharia law. Most people just want to get on with their lives, and, generally, that's easiest in a liberal democracy.

 

But if you listen to washington and whitehall any group who call for sharia and who are against democracy etc are seen as extremists.

 

Good. I, personally am glad that the world's most powerful country and my own country find the idea of legalised misogyny and that the people do not control the government "extreme" a very, very good thing.

 

It's starting to sound like you support these two ideas. Do you?

[blender]

this thread is getting serious, god tells me that i should blow it up

[The fish]

this thread is getting serious, god tells me that i should blow it up

 

You're clearly misinterpreting something. It's actually His Noodliness, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, telling you to eat more pasta. Jeez, get it right!

[blender]

You're clearly misinterpreting something. It's actually His Noodliness, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, telling you to eat more pasta. Jeez, get it right!

 

too late, god has spoken, his word is true, i obey his will. there is no mistake. there can be no more questions, argument or debate. those that dont agree are all infidels

[Haden]

too late, god has spoken, his word is true, i obey his will. there is no mistake. there can be no more questions, argument or debate. those that dont agree are all infidels

 

Im so glad this guy hasn't been banned. I remember the great banning days under Jordan when people like this got put on a list and taken out. This guy is clearly hilarious.

 

Annnnnd! You actually made a good point Blended about anti jewish and anti Israel. Biggg difference although the two can merge on occasions.

[navarre]

First of all did he really say that. Some people say the translation was wrong! But even if he did he is not saying all Jews should be killed. He is saying that the state of Israel needs to be removed. There are Jews that also say the same thing.

 

 

 

yes there is no elections so voting out dictators is not an option.. It is about the masses with the help of people of influence etc rising up and removing them. If UK and the US really care about people not being able to vote out tyrants why do they support the dictators in egypt, saudi arabia, uzbekistan etc.

 

Also the one major factor is the US/UK and there allies are occupying muslim lands. This will never be accepted by the muslim world.

 

Pakistan has problems but that does not give america the right to attack. The pakistan government is a joke and that is the main reason why the country is a mess right now. It like most muslim governments are sub servant to the US and attacks its own people.

 

Yes there is a small minority which are taking part in terrorism and and yes the taliban have done some bad things.

 

But if you listen to washington and whitehall any group who call for islam and sharia and who are against democracy etc are seen as extremists.

 

 

No response to my earlier points?

 

The perennial crap you are spouting is nothing short of stupidity. 'Masses of people' cannot simply rise up and overthrow dictators. If they could, they wouldn't be dictators in the first place, would they? It would be very hard to overthrow a government even in a country like Britain, let alone a dictatorship! The difference between the dictators in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and the reason we don't overthrow them, is because they don't have appalling human rights records.

 

 

Also the one major factor is the US/UK and there allies are occupying muslim lands. This will never be accepted by the muslim world.

Have you been living under a rock for the past years? The Muslim world already has accepted the US/UK invasion of Afghanistan! Hell, Turkey even has troops there, and the Afghan army is one of the largest anti-Taliban forces there is.

 

 

It like most muslim governments are sub servant to the US and attacks its own people.

 

Pakistan is actually a mess because of morons like the Taliban. But anyway, if arresting and fighting terrorists is being sub servant to the US, it's no wonder why so many Muslim countries are doing it.

But if you listen to washington and whitehall any group who call for islam and sharia and who are against democracy etc are seen as extremists

That's because their version of 'sharia' would focus on the extermination of Jews, Hindus, homosexuals, atheists, probably Christians, would take away almost every 'God-given' (ironic, I know) right from women and have the death penalty for almost every crime possible! So, forgive me if that sounds a little 'extreme' to the West, but we live in secular democracies where most of us have moved on a bit from the Medieval Period.

 

Not really - the two Iraqis I know both hate Saddam Hussein and were happy the Coalition invaded. Every Muslim I know holds similar views to my own about the Taliban.

 

Exactly. This is not an Islamaphobic war. It's good to know that some Muslims actually have recieved an education!

It's starting to sound like you support these two ideas. Do you?

I know. If living by the laws of a fictional diety as prescribed in a fairy tale is your thing, by all means, go an do it. Just don't subjegate anyone else.

[Ten10]

Well a good question that came up the other day is, who is terror? How can you win against an enemy that essentially doesn't exist/ potentially cannot end. Their is no true embodiment of this 'terror' thus the war on terror is more a war on people's freedoms and rights.

 

A lot of this war on terror has resulted in the loss of people's freedoms, liberties and also led to the complete disregard for sections of the magna carta. Under anti terror laws in the US at least, your house can be searched without a warrant with or without you being at your place of residence. And you can be held for a number of days without charge or the right to an attorney. War on terror is mostly BS.

[khilafah]

There people and muslims who say the state of Iran needs to be removed and replace do you support that view as well?

 

I want to see all muslim rulers removed and replaced with a sincere islamic government (khilafah). One Islamic state with no borders.

 

The Iranian Leadership do not rule by the Shariah in the sunni or shia school of thought so I support the non violent methods to remove these leaders.

 

 

In my experience, it's actually just a minority of nut-jobs who want Sharia law. Most people just want to get on with their lives, and, generally, that's easiest in a liberal democracy.

 

Good. I, personally am glad that the world's most powerful country and my own country find the idea of legalised misogyny and that the people do not control the government "extreme" a very, very good thing.

 

It's starting to sound like you support these two ideas. Do you?

 

I support the return of the Khilafah unifying the muslim world under one state yes. The Khilafah is accountable who will rule by the Shariah.

 

He is not a dictator.

Edited July 29, 2009 by khilafah

[danny]

I want to see all muslim rulers removed and replaced with a sincere islamic government (khilafah). One Islamic state with no borders.

 

The Iranian Leadership do not rule by the Shariah in the sunni or shia school of thought so I support the non violent methods to remove these leaders.

 

 

 

I support the return of the Khilafah unifying the muslim world under one state yes. The Khilafah is accountable who will rule by the Shariah.

 

He is not a dictator.

 

Well thank god it will never happen. The west wont let it happen and thats a good thing. Shariah law is a relic from the past it does not have a place in the modern world. Maybe some sections have relevence but not all of it.

[navarre]

I want to see all muslim rulers removed and replaced with a sincere islamic government (khilafah). One Islamic state with no borders.

 

The Iranian Leadership do not rule by the Shariah in the sunni or shia school of thought so I support the non violent methods to remove these leaders.

 

 

 

I support the return of the Khilafah unifying the muslim world under one state yes. The Khilafah is accountable who will rule by the Shariah.

 

He is not a dictator.

 

And the fact that unintelligent people like you are the only ones who want it prove it'll never happen. You've clearly not thought this through, and seeing as I defeated you on every point (which you've duely ignored), you've come up with no reason as to why it should happen. You could never have Persians, Arabs, Shias, Sunnis, liberals and radicals under one flag. There is too much indifference.

[danny]

And the fact that unintelligent people like you are the only ones who want it prove it'll never happen. You've clearly not thought this through, and seeing as I defeated you on every point (which you've duely ignored), you've come up with no reason as to why it should happen. You could never have Persians, Arabs, Shias, Sunnis, liberals and radicals under one flag. There is too much indifference.

 

I dont know why you are saying that navarre i mean shias and sunnis are making such a gran job of it in Iraq arnt they???? :indeed:

[navarre]

I dont know why you are saying that navarre i mean shias and sunnis are making such a gran job of it in Iraq arnt they???? :indeed:

 

If blowing each others mosques up is making a grand job of it, then yes, yes they are. The Taliban didn't even treat Shias as Muslims, making Iran a Taliban enemy.

[danny]

If blowing each others mosques up is making a grand job of it, then yes, yes they are. The Taliban didn't even treat Shias as Muslims, making Iran a Taliban enemy.

 

 

Forgot to say sarcasm was switched on.

 

Iran is deffinatly no friend of the Taliban.

[khilafah]

No response to my earlier points?

 

The perennial crap you are spouting is nothing short of stupidity. 'Masses of people' cannot simply rise up and overthrow dictators. If they could, they wouldn't be dictators in the first place, would they? It would be very hard to overthrow a government even in a country like Britain, let alone a dictatorship! The difference between the dictators in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and the reason we don't overthrow them, is because they don't have appalling human rights records.

 

Egypt lock up all political opponents. Secular or islamic, they torture people who speak out against the government. The reason why Mubarek is not removed by the west is because they know he will be replaced by an Islamic Government.

 

The masses with help from people with influence can remove dictators. History has shown this to happen.

 

 

 

Have you been living under a rock for the past years? The Muslim world already has accepted the US/UK invasion of Afghanistan! Hell, Turkey even has troops there, and the Afghan army is one of the largest anti-Taliban forces there is.

 

The masses on the street have not. the Governments have, there is a big difference here. These governments do not represent the people's views.

 

 

Pakistan is actually a mess because of morons like the Taliban. But anyway, if arresting and fighting terrorists is being sub servant to the US, it's no wonder why so many Muslim countries are doing it.

 

Letting the US dictate your economic system is sub-servant. Letting the US use drone attacks on your land killing innocent civilians is sub-servant. Pakistan was a mess long before the taliban. It has had courrpt leadership for decades and has a fuedal system that makes like for the poor a real misery.

 

That's because their version of 'sharia' would focus on the extermination of Jews, Hindus, homosexuals, atheists, probably Christians, would take away almost every 'God-given' (ironic, I know) right from women and have the death penalty for almost every crime possible! So, forgive me if that sounds a little 'extreme' to the West, but we live in secular democracies where most of us have moved on a bit from the Medieval Period.

 

Er no, The sharia is very clear on how a khilafah government must treat non-muslims. Extermination or forced conversions is strictly forbidden and against Islam.

[danny]

Egypt lock up all political opponents. Secular or islamic, they torture people who speak out against the government. The reason why Mubarek is not removed by the west is because they know he will be replaced by an Islamic Government.

 

No it bacause they at least try and play the game.

 

The masses with help from people with influence can remove dictators. History has shown this to happen.

 

History has shown this is rare. Any dictator who is any good at his job would never allow anyone who he thaught likely to remove him to have any influence.

 

The masses on the street have not. the Governments have, there is a big difference here. These governments do not represent the people's views.

 

And neither do your views.

 

Letting the US use drone attacks on your land killing innocent civilians is sub-servant.

 

Pakistan did not have that much choice. And neither does America they are at war, they want to win the war. If there enemy is hideing inside another country then they have no option to attack it. If Pakistan stopped them doing this they would be harbouring terrorists and would effectivley drag them in to war against the Americans. A position not to many countrys would wish to be in,

Pakistan themselves are trying to get a much better grip on there own internal situation now. As seen in Swat.

[navarre]

Egypt lock up all political opponents. Secular or islamic, they torture people who speak out against the government. The reason why Mubarek is not removed by the west is because they know he will be replaced by an Islamic Government.

 

 

If we invaded every country that lcoked up political opponents, we'd have to introduce conscription. The difference is, the Taliban were murdering people in their thousands. Egypt is a good example of a secular country in the Muslim world, largely because of its 20% Christian minority. Egypt is an example of a Middle Eastern country gone right because of its secularity, and the result? The most powerful country in the Middle East alongside Israel.

 

The masses on the street have not. the Governments have, there is a big difference here. These governments do not represent the people's views

.

 

Really? Please post a link to these street masses that oppose the law. Thw only example I can think of was in Luton, and the Muslim community in Britain was quick to denounce their actions! Further proof that a minority of Muslims share your views. Oh, and Muslims shouldn't elect those governments in the first place if they don't represent 'peoples views' lol.

Letting the US dictate your economic system is sub-servant. Letting the US use drone attacks on your land killing innocent civilians is sub-servant. Pakistan was a mess long before the taliban. It has had courrpt leadership for decades and has a fuedal system that makes like for the poor a real misery.

 

To be fair, being the sub servant of the most powerful and wealthiest democracy on Earth is hardly a bad thing.

 

Er no, The sharia is very clear on how a khilafah government must treat non-muslims. Extermination or forced conversions is strictly forbidden and against Islam.

 

Would that be the same sharia that the Taliban used to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists then?

 

The masses with help from people with influence can remove dictators. History has shown this to happen.

 

Sorry, didn't see this. Would this be the same history as Hitler and Stalin, or are we talking about the history of a parallel universe here?

 

By the way, if it's so easy to overthrow dictators, why don't Muslims overthrow their governments if they don't represent their views? Just interested.

Edited July 29, 2009 by navarre
Automerged Doublepost

[Haden]

I want to see all muslim rulers removed and replaced with a sincere islamic government (khilafah). One Islamic state with no borders.

 

The Iranian Leadership do not rule by the Shariah in the sunni or shia school of thought so I support the non violent methods to remove these leaders.

 

 

 

I support the return of the Khilafah unifying the muslim world under one state yes. The Khilafah is accountable who will rule by the Shariah.

 

He is not a dictator.

 

Which states would be unified into this one state?

[khilafah]

And the fact that unintelligent people like you are the only ones who want it prove it'll never happen. You've clearly not thought this through, and seeing as I defeated you on every point (which you've duely ignored), you've come up with no reason as to why it should happen. You could never have Persians, Arabs, Shias, Sunnis, liberals and radicals under one flag. There is too much indifference.

 

The reason it should happen as this is an obligation in islam. This was the ruling system of the prophet (saw) and the Companions after he died. I will put down all the verses from the quran and sunnah if you really want to read them.

 

the Prophet (saw) illustrated that the death of someone who does without a bai'ah (oath of allegiance) to a Khaleefah whether he exists or not, or not to struggle to the establishment of Khilafah, is like the death of jahiliyah.

 

he Khilafah is the only correct structure Islam has laid down, the Messenger (saw) said, "after me there will be no Prophet, but there will be Khulafah and they will number many"

 

The islamic ruling system rules the muslim world for over 1000 years. Different nationalities, races, school of thought have always existed. These things are not important as the one thing that unites us is the Islamic Aqeedah. The state is built on the islamic Aqeedah, Nationalism has no place in Islam.

 

Muslims believe there is no legislator but Allah and that sovereignty belongs to Allah and not the people or the ruler so natrually this means we strive for the return of the Islamic Khilafah state that will rule by what Allah has revealed.

[Haden]

Do you have a list of countries?

[blender]

you make more sense than wikipedia does...which reads like a medieval history lesson (maybe you should edit it)

 

If i was a caliphate, I would get a common enemy to unite the masses... just like in watchmen

 

but it really is an odd thought... reminds me of marxism ... workers unite etc

Edited July 29, 2009 by blender

[danny]

Nationalism has no place in Islam.

 

Before i deployed we met some afghan men in the UK who talked to us about there culture etc. The first comment he made was "you british and we afghans are very simaler. Almost all of your jokes are about Pakistanis, well all of ours are about Pakistanis."

So if nationalism has no place in Islam why is it that the entire comedy of a nation is about mocking another people who also believe in Islam?