Posted June 5, 2009 I believe Daft wins the argument. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) The question takes assumption our rules apply to gods or that he is even a living being. If we knew how god works it wouldn't be faith. Edit: Daft and Gizmo explained way better than what I did. Edited June 5, 2009 by Shino Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 God, if he/she did exist, exists beyond human understanding; that is why he/she is God. You then applying a human idea to God; suicide. Durkheim says suicide is a social fact and since God is above society why would God ever want to do it. Which brings us to another point, if God is perfect then he does not progress he just is and so it would be impossible for him to change his state, commit suicide, unless he was fallible. This is essentially what I'm trying to say. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Isn't this another variation of that stupid "If God is all powerful, can He create a rock so heavy that He himself cannot lift it?" question? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 God, if he/she did exist, exists beyond human understanding; that is why he/she is God. Didn't stop the bugger from teasing us with his presence. if God is perfect then he does not progress he just is and so it would be impossible for him to change his state, commit suicide, unless he was fallible. I have it on good authority the Big G changes his look every coupla hundred years. To keep himself Fresh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 The fact of the matter is that the Bible is complete shite, and if there is a higher being then it's 99.999999% likely that she is nothing like she is described in the Bible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 One of God's favourite forms. I actually used to think this was what God might've looked like in the olden days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Why does everyone portray God as an old man? Presumably if God is perfect, (s)he'd look like a perfectly formed young adult (of, say, 25 years). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Well they say when you die and shit you live forever in the afterlife, so unless bustin' makes you feel good, can a ghost commit suicide also? Think this could be it to be honest, maybe he's already dead? Dead people go to Heaven or Hell, right? God is in Heaven. He's dead. Something that's dead can't die. If he can't die then he can't commit suicide (without resurrecting himself and comitting suicide, but then he'd go to hell, battle it out with the Devil and the whole of existance would cease to exist). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 I'm pretty sure the modern day definition of "Father" derivates slightly from the one 2000 years ago. I don't think you can use it as a counter argument; also, translation discrepancies. How do we know what he is? A spirit seems just as likely as anything else. And being omnipotent means beign able to do anything, but thats anything in the world. Death may not physically exist as something that is possible to his "species". In the same way that he can only make a massive rock because mass exists, or walk on water because buoyancy exists. In the same way that the human brain cannot comprehend colour beyond what they know - we couldn't describe any other colours, because all we can use to describe a colour is another colour - who are we to say that "death" is a physical thing that could affect such a being? I am atheist / agnostic, depending on your definition. I do not believe in God, or any other similar thing. I am a Physicist, essentially. Give me evidence for a God, and I will believe you, in the same way that I believe in gravity even though I can't see it. You're still missing the point. If God is omnipotent, he could make his species die, because he has the power to do anything. If he was another species, or not a living thing, is beyond the question. Fact is, he could kill himself because he is all powerful. He is either eternal or omnipotent; he cannot be both. Gravity may not be seen, but at least we can measure gravity:- such an ability does not exist for God. Isn't this another variation of that stupid "If God is all powerful, can He create a rock so heavy that He himself cannot lift it?" question? Struck a (theists) nerve, have I? The fact of the matter is that the Bible is complete shite, and if there is a higher being then it's 99.999999% likely that she is nothing like she is described in the Bible. Actually, that is complete shite. The Bible is a fantastic book, irregardless of religious beliefs. I've found myself turning to it despite being an atheist more and more over the past few years for moral guidance. And the history in the Bible is fantastic, and some of the books provide some the best historical records of their time around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Why does everyone portray God as an old man? Presumably if God is perfect, (s)he'd look like a perfectly formed young adult (of, say, 25 years). Because his image is copied from Zeus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Think this could be it to be honest, maybe he's already dead? Dead people go to Heaven or Hell, right? God is in Heaven. He's dead. Something that's dead can't die. If he can't die then he can't commit suicide (without resurrecting himself and comitting suicide, but then he'd go to hell, battle it out with the Devil and the whole of existance would cease to exist). Actually, that being said about my previous comment. When the ghosts in Ghostbusters were caught they weren't "killed", just imprisoned. Y'know, until dickless released them. Why does everyone portray God as an old man? Presumably if God is perfect, (s)he'd look like a perfectly formed young adult (of, say, 25 years). Probably the wise angle. They made the Devil old in Reaper. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) This is just discussion of an obvious paradox, and isn't really going to get anywhere. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." Edit: This is basically a Wittgensteinian reiteration of Daft's argument. Edited June 5, 2009 by Supergrunch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 The fact of the matter is that the Bible is complete shite, and if there is a higher being then it's 99.999999% likely that she is nothing like she is described in the Bible. A woman? That cannot be! Surely you jest, no man's rib has ever created anything of importance! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 One of God's favourite forms. I actually used to think this was what God might've looked like in the olden days. Yeah but this one is his all time fave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 "No wonder he kept out of sight" :p Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 the real question isnt "could god kill himself?" but could I kill god? or failing that, who honestly cares? its like arguing if superman could beat up batman. its never going to happen in real life so start thinkin about real things Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Question for all the Christians/Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Sikhs/Bahais on this forum. Could God, if he so chooses, commit suicide? I mean, if he could then he wouldn't be immortal. But if he couldn't, then he isn't omnipotent. I'm just interested to know. there is a difference between could and would. if he is omnipotent, then he is able to make himself mortal. Infact, One could say In Christian belief thats exactly what he did - ie Jesus. Also, death is a different event depending on your view point. If you believe in an after life it is merely passing to a new stage, if not its destruction. if you mean passing to a new stage, you could argue, from the point of view of Christianity, in a way Jesus was God passing from stage to stage, so I suppose Jesus' Birth and resurrection, being initiated by him, would count as such. suicide seems to be the wrong word though. We have the same issue. There are plenty of things we are physically capable to do, but are mentally unwilling to do, which we interpret as "can't do". Really, to answer this question would require a deep understanding of and knowledge concerning God, which, for various reasons, is something neither religious nor atheists believe to be possible. but my answer could, but wouldn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) It's an interesting question. Could God kill himself? Well, right off of the bat I'll just say I don't believe in him. But if he/she was to exist, he/she is beyond to realm of our physical self and beyond the realm of our understanding and thought. We as people cannot and will never be able to comprehend what God is, what he/she is like, how he/she goes about things, etc. because we have no way of defining what God is, no true definition that would do him/her justice, and we have no way of finding it out. See, something like gravity: we can't see if but we know it is there because we can measure it through various methods and calculations. With God, there is no way of finding out whether it's there because there is no conceivable way of finding out due to the fact God is beyond our realm of thought and understanding. To answer the question would be to confirm that God exists, which is impossible to do. It would also commit him/her to a physical state akin to us or some other being but then that begs the question of how can he/she be in a physical state in a spiritual world, as heaven is, according to religious scriptures, where a person's spirit goes to live for eternity. How I see it is that God, should one exist, would be of a ethereal form and in that case couldn't and wouldn't be able to kill himself. But, as I said, I don't believe in God so I see it that God is this omnipotent being placed as the figurehead for a religion to help guide its believers; something that doesn't exist in any true form outside of the book his name is written in. Edited June 5, 2009 by Ganepark32 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Or end up in Hell, how ironic. Hell is often defined by the more modern, C of E type Christians (I use this definition as it is the one I am most familiar with) as "existence without God" - not only would this instantly cease to be hell with God there, but I exist without God, and I'm pretty damn happy. Back on topic, if there was an all-powerful all-knowing all-loving ever-existing super being (by definition impossible) then, both yes and no - he, she, or it would be, as an all powerful being, be able to commit suicide, but as they existed permanently, they'd contradict that. As (IIRC) Dan Dare said, it's a stupid (not to mention totally pointless) idea, even more so than that of the "immovable object". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 You're still missing the point. If God is omnipotent, he could make his species die, because he has the power to do anything. If he was another species, or not a living thing, is beyond the question. Fact is, he could kill himself because he is all powerful. He is either eternal or omnipotent; he cannot be both. Gravity may not be seen, but at least we can measure gravity:- such an ability does not exist for God. No, I get your point. Your missing mine: death may not be something that exists in the "God" realm in the way that it exists here. Death is a human concept, and therefore so is suicide; so to suggest that God must be able to achieve it because "he can do anything" is silly. He may well be able to do anything, create any object, any species, whatever. But death may not exist. And if he were to "create" death, it wouldn't work in the same way, because it could not, because it doesn't exist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 Actually, that is complete shite. The Bible is a fantastic book, irregardless of religious beliefs. I've found myself turning to it despite being an atheist more and more over the past few years for moral guidance. And the history in the Bible is fantastic, and some of the books provide some the best historical records of their time around. This is one of the few times "lol" has been an accurate representation of my reaction. In terms of morality, it frequently contradicts itself and the old testament is pretty damn repulsive - I believe that taking your son and preparing to kill him because an invisible indemonstrable "thing" told you to is a little immoral, and is the first recorded use of the Nuremberg defence - "I was just following orders". As for history, a few things spring to mind off the top of my head - almost everything in the old testament, for a start, and for the new testament, the whole thing about the census is completely rubbish and unsupported anywhere else, and there is nothing I have found that isn't highly suspect and likely to be doctored by more recent Christian scholars that suggests the Jesus ever existed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 God can commit suicide. But it would also KILL US AAAAAAAALLLLLLLL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 First of all, I don't believe in God. But I find this argument pretty stupid. If he's god, he can kill himself, then, once he feels like being alive, he will reborn immediatly. Thus, your argument is pointless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted June 5, 2009 First of all, I don't believe in God. But I find this argument pretty stupid. If he's god, he can kill himself, then, once he feels like being alive, he will reborn immediatly. Thus, your argument is pointless. But if he can come back to life "when he feels like being alive", surely he is not dead? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
