Star Trek Masturbatathon

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Pestneb said:

I watched some old trek and don't think the tone of discovery is too far off. I think the main issue is I don't like any of the characters. On TNG, DS9, Voyager... even the characters I didn't really like were likeable. I was more engaged with the "villains" than I am with most of the "heroes" in discovery. There were maybe 1/2 characters on the old series I didn't particularly like, but in discovery there are only maybe one or two that I'm ok with. Generally when a character has been killed off, I've been happy because I hope against hope that a new character who is likeable might get introduced. I'm really not sure what it is that makes all the characters so unlikeable though. I might watch Picard if amazon give me a free month of prime, I live abroad so 99% of the prime video stuff isn't available to me though, so I may just never watch it :/

 

Nail on the head for me as well.

It's also a problem when the character you set your entire series around (and evidently, the universe) has zero charm or personality, and over-acts like crazy.

At least they've mellowed Stamets out a bit, he was so obnoxious in his introduction scene at the beginning of season 1. Terrible first impression! 

[Agent Gibbs]

I love Discovery BUT even i have to say my least favorite character is Burnham, I didn't like Stammets either for the first season. Conversely i loved Tilly, but on the second season she grated me with how overly cheery and optimistic she was. Frankly i think the issue is the script writers have fallen into the trap of the later series of most sit-coms - exaggerate the characters 'defining' traits, but only of the characters they don't seem to know what exactly to do with!

With Burham, she was raised like a Vulcan but struggles with emotion, so lets make her cold 90% of the time and then suddenly emotional for the other 10%.

Stammets - make him an abnoxious jerk,

Tilly fans loved her optimism and how she wasn't 'perfect', possibly slightly nuts, so lets REALLY play on those in season 2

But it isn't all bad, the characters who they fleshed out (mainly, because they have tried with Burnham) i tended to love, Saru is awsome, complex, growing, questions himself but not to the extreme and over the course of the two seasons became captain material. Tyler, damn he had a crazy arch and one hell of a backstory making him very interesting, same with Giorgio, hell i'm even intrigued with the Doctor and how his rebirth will play out.

Its not that the show isn't star trek and its not that the Orville is, its just that one has much better character development over the other and Star Trek typically had good character development for the entire cast.

 

On Picard its interesting watching the 'fans' who shit on Discovery for being not star trek, fawn over picard which seems like Disco with Picard fronting it, its blatantly obvious its a mix of casting and nostalgia churning up the hate for the vocal ass hats that is.

[Ronnie]

Yeah they're definitely leaning too heavily on what little character traits there is, but it points to a lack of writing talent frankly, especially when you add in the convoluted and nonsensical story-telling. Turning a Klingon into a human, and no one noticing? Come on. Season 2 started great, the episode in the Church asked some interesting questions and was well made. The Talos episode too was fantastic, that felt like classic Trek. Then it devolved back into dumb season 1 stuff, the instant they revealed Michael was the angel. That last space battle was just WTF .

Another problem with Discovery's characters is that the writers are fast forwarding emotion and drama, and none of it is earned. They're telling us to feel these things as if we're supposed to care but it just comes across as half arsed. Does anyone really care much about the Burnham Tyler love angle? Or Stamets and Culber. Or Airiam in that season 2 episode. Or the teary goodbye between Saru and Burnham in season 2? Why are we seeing Mirror Universe versions of characters less than 10 episodes into the first season? We barely know our universe versions, why are they showing us alternates already.

Thankfully they made Georgiou more likeable, she's great. So is Saru. Stamets is getting there slowly. Reno is great too, some much needed personality. I groaned when they made her a lesbian though, a move that would have had ResetEra cheering at least. Pike was great, sad to see him leave.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Ronnie

[Agent Gibbs]

You have some good points there @Ronnie, Season 2 started off great until they made Burnham the Angel, I was routing for it to be Iconians, hell as cliche' as her mother was, that would also be preferable, but shoehorning Burnham into everything is getting old, it makes it seem like the Burnham show with a guest cast, only the rest of the cast is much more likeable and interesting.

Case in point Pike, the Pike centric episodes, all scenes with Pike in charge and Burnham sidelined were spectacular and felt right, but then it shifted back to Burnham. I get she is the star of the show, but that needn't be at the expensive of good or logical story, they have include her, have her reactions, have her POV of events, but the shoehorning? it seems so forced.

And I agree on the emotional stuff to an extent, not the specific examples overly; Ariam however is perfect, she wasn't even a side character, she was an extra and then suddenly she was the focus, now whilst Trek has done this before, this was jarring as we were expected to care. To me it felt like they were doing a Tasha and it was not earned, Tasha had a story, Arium was part of the set. 

Tyler/Burnham and Saru/Burnham i am more forgiving of, they were intended to develop her and them, give connections, so i can see the logic and to a degree got it. However for me, Burnham was the prop in character development for Tyler and then Saru, which i get the impression was not the writers intention, who wanted it the otherway round.

Right now, if Burnham was killed off, i wouldn't overly care as the rest of the cast carry the show and its a shame to the actress who does her best with the shonky writing.

I sounds like i hate Disco and i don't i love it, but it feels rushed and like the quality of the writing has suffered because of it when it could be great - Perhaps now its beyond Trek and not shackled to cannon it might work better

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Agent Gibbs said:

You have some good points there @Ronnie, Season 2 started off great until they made Burnham the Angel, I was routing for it to be Iconians, hell as cliche' as her mother was, that would also be preferable, but shoehorning Burnham into everything is getting old, it makes it seem like the Burnham show with a guest cast, only the rest of the cast is much more likeable and interesting.

Yeah I wouldn't mind Burnham as the lead, if she wasn't completely bland and annoying. I didn't need a 30 second long clip of her screaming in slow motion in the season 2 finale for instance.  A better actress would have helped a lot I think, even outside the show Martin-Green is irritating.

1 hour ago, Agent Gibbs said:

And I agree on the emotional stuff to an extent, not the specific examples overly; Ariam however is perfect, she wasn't even a side character, she was an extra and then suddenly she was the focus, now whilst Trek has done this before, this was jarring as we were expected to care. To me it felt like they were doing a Tasha and it was not earned, Tasha had a story, Arium was part of the set. 

Did we really need four mirror universe episodes in season 1? If they absolutely had to include that bit of storytelling then make it 2 episodes and give us more character focused ones in the other two, make one about Airiam for instance. Or Rhys and Bryce, I know this show seems to prefer female characters but give those two some screen time beyond a few bridge lines.

1 hour ago, Agent Gibbs said:

I sounds like i hate Disco and i don't i love it, but it feels rushed and like the quality of the writing has suffered because of it when it could be great - Perhaps now its beyond Trek and not shackled to cannon it might work better

I don't think having 27 or whatever executive producers helps to be honest. Feels like they have too many ideas to fit in and everything has to be fast forwarded to get to the next one. Also, I can barely remember much from season 1, a couple of episodes or setpieces stand out, but otherwise it was all a bit muddled. I guess that's the way television has gone sadly. 

I'll keep watching Discovery because I love Trek but (personally) I don't think the writing or characters are up to much and that's kind of a problem.

[Hero-of-Time]

Another member of the DS9 crew has passed away.  

 

I loved Odo. He was such a great character. 

[Happenstance]

Saw him talk at a Star Trek con last year and he seemed like a really nice man.

[Happenstance]

Marina Sirtis' husband also died (not Rene)

[Hero-of-Time]

 

[Sméagol]

I wonder if there's going to be some sort of connection between Picard and Discovery.

 

Discovery left off jumping into the far future, in order to prevent the sphere knowledge falling into the hands of Control, who's probably still around. A few centuries later, and the main threat in Picard are apparently some sort of synthetic beings. So I wonder if that's some sort of evolution of Control. The synthetic beings were revealed in one of the shorts by the way. I haven't seen it myself, so I don't know the details. Also explains why Picard would need the expertise of Data, Seven, and Hugh.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Sméagol

[Ronnie]

That split second shot of the Enterprise D looks TERRIBLE. I'm going to assume (hope) it's just for this trailer. Then again it wouldn't surprise me if John Eaves has ruined yet another starship design.

27 minutes ago, Sméagol said:

I wonder if there's going to be some sort of connection between Picard and Discovery.

I seriously hope not. Personally I'd be fine with Discovery never airing another episode. At least until they replace Burnham and pretty much the whole cast with likeable characters, and all the writers for... well, competent ones.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Ronnie

[Happenstance]

God I loved the first episode of Star Trek Picard.

Spoiler

I almost teared up during his interview when the Picard of old came out.

Great to see them show Worf in the first episode, just right off the bat show that yes Klingons still look like that.

Bruce Maddox being mentioned was awesome. I hope we see him at some point.

Lal and Lore better get a mention at some point!

The CGI on Data looked a lot better than the trailers.

 

[Hero-of-Time]

13 hours ago, Happenstance said:

God I loved the first episode of Star Trek Picard.

  Ep 1 (Reveal hidden contents)

I almost teared up during his interview when the Picard of old came out.

Great to see them show Worf in the first episode, just right off the bat show that yes Klingons still look like that.

Bruce Maddox being mentioned was awesome. I hope we see him at some point.

Lal and Lore better get a mention at some point!

The CGI on Data looked a lot better than the trailers.

 

I was going to wait until more episodes hit before watching it but I couldn't help myself. 

Absolutely brilliant first episode. Obviously there's very little space stuff at the moment but the focus on the characters was on point and the story beats surprising and intriguing.

Spoiler

It's been a while since I watched TNG but was Lal Data's daughter that he created? I do vaguely remember that episode. I'm sure there's a line in it about Data's hands moving so fast to save her but he was unable to do so. Doesn't she start speaking like a human or something and that's when he realizes she's breaking down? 

With these new synthetics being twins you do have to imagine that Lore will get a mention at some point.

Dat cube at the end. 

REALLY looking forward to the next episode.

[Happenstance]

2 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I was going to wait until more episodes hit before watching it but I couldn't help myself. 

Absolutely brilliant first episode. Obviously there's very little space stuff at the moment but the focus on the characters was on point and the story beats surprising and intriguing.

  Spoilers (Hide contents)

It's been a while since I watched TNG but was Lal Data's daughter that he created? I do vaguely remember that episode. I'm sure there's a line in it about Data's hands moving so fast to save her but he was unable to do so. Doesn't she start speaking like a human or something and that's when he realizes she's breaking down? 

With these new synthetics being twins you do have to imagine that Lore will get a mention at some point.

Dat cube at the end. 

REALLY looking forward to the next episode.

Spoiler

Yeah that was Lal that died and was starting to feel emotions at the end.

I wonder if the cards in the dream at the end were just queens for the sake of it or the fact that Data won with 5 "Qs" is a hint towards a certain someone

 

[Hero-of-Time]

31 minutes ago, Happenstance said:

  Spoiler (Hide contents)

Yeah that was Lal that died and was starting to feel emotions at the end.

I wonder if the cards in the dream at the end were just queens for the sake of it or the fact that Data won with 5 "Qs" is a hint towards a certain someone

 

Now that would be something.  

[Happenstance]

It's nuts watching people moan about 2 short action scenes during the episode like we didnt used to have Kirk and his ripped shirts and karate chops every episodes or Worf offing Klingon officials.

[Scratch]

Just watched the first ep, brilliant start.

[Hero-of-Time]

Watching Picard got me in the mood for some more Star Trek so yesterday evening I decided to start watching one of the series. TNG would have been the obvious choice but I decided to go with DS9 instead. It's a series that I didn't really like until the Klingon war arc started and I don't remember much about the first couple of series at all. Basically it's going to be like watching a new series to me, especially when you consider it's been around 15 years since I watched the final episode.

I went and watched the first 4 episodes back to back (Emissary part 1 and 2, Past Prologue and A Man Alone) and loved all of them. I would have loved to have watched more but it was half 11 at night and waaaay past my bedtime. I honestly forgot just how many good characters there are in this show, especially those who aren't part of the Federation. Rom, Dukat, Quark and, the best of them all, Garak. Rom appeared in one of these early episodes and i'm sure his voice is different in the later ones. Maybe i'm misremembering but i'll be keeping an eye on it. I was never a big fan of Bashir's character and he's pretty annoying in these early stages. Dude is practically a stalker with Dax (). Also, knowing what I know about him now, it seems weird how he acts the way he does. I always hated what they did to him in the later series. That storyline just felt unnecessary and forced.

It's crazy watching these now and seeing just how on point Gene Roddenberry was in terms of coming up with future tech. Seeing the crew using touch pads and carry around tablets was pretty out there back in the day but here we are now using such devices.

I think i'll appreciate the political and religious tones of this show much more now that i'm older. I do remember thinking that the earlier series were pretty boring due to the lack of action (hence falling in love with it when things started kicking off) but I loved watching those few episodes last night where it was mainly about the people and the back and forth between the Cardassians and Bajorans, with the Federation stuck in the middle just trying to keep the peace.

Yup, this going to be my go to show on an evening for the foreseeable future.

 

[Dcubed]

Yeah, these are pretty much my thoughts on the show so far

[Ronnie]

Urgh, Red Letter Media. Someone tell them to just watch OT Star Wars in a room with a box of Kleenex, nothing else will do.

Anyway, LOVED episode 1, fantastic. And look at that, real, relatable, LIKEABLE, characters! Better than literally anything Discovery dished up.

Fantastically paced, beautifully shot. Love the world they've set up.

I just hope this show doesn't devolve into Discovery's dumb writing and senseless pew pew action.

[Sméagol]

Hey @Ronnie, I get the feeling you don't like Discovery.

[Hero-of-Time]

I watched another 3 episodes of DS9 last night. Loved the episode where Q and Vash were the main story points. I do have a vague recollection of this episode because I remember the line that Q says when Sisko smacks him. "You hit me! Picard never hit me!"   Also, the reaction from O'Brien when he sees Q was on DS9 was hilarious.  I quite like seeing these characters that were established in TNG show up on on the station. The Duras sisters were another welcome surprise in an episode I watched on Sunday night.

Bashir still continues to annoy me. The guy is like a dog in heat. In just about every episode I've watched so far he is trying to hook up with some woman. The dude is trying to be the next Captain Kirk.  

 

[Happenstance]

Bashir did take a while to grow on me. It's probably when they paired him with O'Brien that he really worked. One person I never liked was Avery Brooks and his over acting, I just kind of learnt to put up with it.

[Hero-of-Time]

14 minutes ago, Happenstance said:

Bashir did take a while to grow on me. It's probably when they paired him with O'Brien that he really worked. One person I never liked was Avery Brooks and his over acting, I just kind of learnt to put up with it.

Yeah, I do remember them having a good back and forth once they start hitting the bar together on a regular basis. Aye, his overacting is hilarious to watch, especially when he tries to come off as forceful. You can't help but just laugh at him. 

[Hero-of-Time]

I watched the 2nd episode of Picard this morning.

Spoiler

The complete and utter disrespect that Picard is shown in this up setting to see. That guy at the desk at Starfleet not even knowing who he was...  

Gotta say, i'm not happy with the bad language that they decided to put in the show. It was never a part of the older series and there is zero reason to use it now. I get the other series were made for TV and had to adhere to certain rules that no longer apply to streaming services but just because they can, doesn't mean they should.

Anyway, another good episode that has left me wanting more.

I have continued watching DS9 throughout the week and i'm now up to episode 12. I'm very surprised just how little Dukat and Garak have been in it so far. I think they've only been in a single episode. It's also taken half the season for Rom to finally start playing a more prominent role. The makeup on Odo has also drastically improved as the series has gone on. In the early episodes you could still make out the lines in his face but now it's pretty much flat/smooth.