Molyneux wants to bring together core and casual

[darkjak]

Peter Molyneux says no more Wii Sports - and more games for both casual and core gamers.

 

Legendary game designer and the head honcho of Xbox 360 role-playing series Fable Peter Molyneux has said he wants the industry to start bringing together core and casual gamers, rather than titles being designed for one or the other.

 

In particular, he has taken a pop at Nintendo's next big titles - including 2009's Wii Sports sequel:

 

"If we don't start bringing these two together [core and casual games] then eventually someone is going to suffer - either the casual gamers or the core gamers. Most likely the core gamers. If you say to those guys: 'Hey, the next exciting thing you are going to play is Wii Sports,' then they are gonna say, 'err, no thank you...'."

 

While Nintendo has promised sequels to core fan favourites Pikmin, Mario and Zelda are on the way, the Big N is currently focusing on releasing Wii Music, Animal Crossing and Wii Sports Resort.

 

But isn't there a need for these titles as they appeal to the broad Wii user base? And after all, some would argue that Nintendo is already trying to bring together the two types of gamers. Let us know your thoughts below...

 

So, what are your thoughts?

I think that this is something than Nintendo should think of. Rather than focusing on making these quite unexciting casual games that people whom consider themselves core keep hating, why don't Nintendo bring out core games with casual controlls. Theoretically Sin and Punishment could be a game like this.

 

Imagine how simple Starfox cold be with the Wiimote! Use the wiimote to point where the Arwing's supposed to go. Shoot with the trigger, fire bombs with A. As you get used to the controlls you can use the volountary stuff, like barrel rolls, lock on shots and loops.

 

Waverace could also be simple, with an accelerator, no brakes and holding the wiimote sideways, and lean it to turn or lean the jetski.

 

And to further cater for casuals, there could be a challenge mode similar to that in Timesplitters, where players can play in short bursts and do different whacky things.

 

But Nintendo still need to focus more on the core. Nintendo are market leaders. They don't have excuses like small audience, high development costs or that there's too many core games out there to compete. Nintendo are filthy rich and need to invest some of that money into new franchises. Like I've said before, every console, bar Nintendo's has had an attempted first party Gran Turismo-beater. Sega had Sega GT, Sony have Gran Turismo and Microsoft have Forza.

I really cannot see why Nintendo won't try it, except for pure stubbornness.

 

Well, that was my rant, what are your oppinions.

[steggy]

So, what are your thoughts?

I think that this is something than Nintendo should think of. Rather than focusing on making these quite unexciting casual games that people whom consider themselves core keep hating, why don't Nintendo bring out core games with casual controlls. Theoretically Sin and Punishment could be a game like this.

 

Imagine how simple Starfox cold be with the Wiimote! Use the wiimote to point where the Arwing's supposed to go. Shoot with the trigger, fire bombs with A. As you get used to the controlls you can use the volountary stuff, like barrel rolls, lock on shots and loops.

 

Waverace could also be simple, with an accelerator, no brakes and holding the wiimote sideways, and lean it to turn or lean the jetski.

 

And to further cater for casuals, there could be a challenge mode similar to that in Timesplitters, where players can play in short bursts and do different whacky things.

 

But Nintendo still need to focus more on the core. Nintendo are market leaders. They don't have excuses like small audience, high development costs or that there's too many core games out there to compete. Nintendo are filthy rich and need to invest some of that money into new franchises. Like I've said before, every console, bar Nintendo's has had an attempted first party Gran Turismo-beater. Sega had Sega GT, Sony have Gran Turismo and Microsoft have Forza.

I really cannot see why Nintendo won't try it, except for pure stubbornness.

 

Well, that was my rant, what are your oppinions.

 

But when nintendo do that the core audience complain that they're dumbing down there franchises.

[Patch]

I think this is all going to end with people giving their heated definitions of 'core' and 'casual' for the bajillionth time.

 

It's difficult to make a game that caters equally well to core and casual gamers. It's got to be instantly accessible (something a core gamer might find too simple) but have a lot of depth and longevity (something a casual gamer might find frustrating).

[Gizmo]

Pretty sure it's been Nintendo's intention on merging the two sides all along. They just aren't doing too good a job of it yet.

[Shino]

Oh Peter, when will you learn to not promise impossible things.

[Hellfire]

Nintendo's been doing that since the dawn of time. What's one of most Nintendo games' biggest characteristics? They're accessible to a broad audience. Super Mario, Mario Kart, Donkey Kong, Donkey Konga etc... These are all games played by the hardcore and played by newcomers, it's nothing new. Wii and DScontrols for most cases also do this automatically instead of requiring the memorization of lots of buttons and combinations.

 

Of course now the spectrum broadened a little an some compromises can be made in certain games, but there's a market for everyone, not every single game needs to appeal to all crowds at the same time. Do we want even more people saying games are dumbed down or newcomers to be put off because "Oh noes, Billy Joe doesn't want Wii Music and he must have at least 1 AAA hardcore Nintendo game a month!" or "Damn those casuals, they're eating in my turf!".

 

I'm quite sick of Molyneux, he's basically a PR now, he's talking all the time, mostly saying gibberish (not that it's complete gibberish this time, but overall) and his games have been disappointing after B&W.

[Ren of Heavens]

Exactly. Mario Galaxy and Smash Brawl are perfect examples of bringing together core and casual.

 

When looking at the Wii's first two years I would say Nintendo has done an excellent job with balancing the line-up between casual and core gamer:

 

Wii Play

Wii Sports

Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess

WarioWare: Smooth Moves

Excite Truck

Mario Strikers Charged

Mario Party 8

Big Brain Academy for Wii

Super Paper Mario

Metroid Prime 3: Corruption

Endless Ocean

Super Mario Galaxy

Pokemon Battle Revolution

Link's Crossbow Training

Wii Chess

Donkey Kong Jet Race

Battalion Wars 2

Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn

Mario Kart Wii

Wii Fit

Super Smash Bros. Brawl

Wario Land: The Shake Dimension

Disaster: Day of Crisis

Wii Music

Animal Crossing: City Folk

[Grazza]

The ideal is to have something accessible enough for casual* gamers, but have enough challenge, control and freedom for core gamers.

 

Nintendo used to be excellent at this - look at Super Mario World or Link to the Past. Whilst Zelda is not an RPG, it takes the best elements from them and makes it accessible, creating a new genre.

 

Nintendo really ought to bring back camera control for their next console. I can understand not everyone likes to control the camera, but other people do. The ideal is to have a good camera that you don't need to adjust, but you can if you want to. If the game chooses every angle for you, it's less interactive and more like a film.

 

* "core" and "casual" used for ease.

[Emasher]

Pretty sure it's been Nintendo's intention on merging the two sides all along. They just aren't doing too good a job of it yet.

 

I think they actually are doing a good job of it.

 

Note, if you don't like the whole core/casual thing, don't read this because you'll probably just flame me after.

 

They had to start out by making non gamers interested in gaming. And they're not going to be that interested in something like Zelda or Metroid. But Nintendo still needs to keep the core interested by producing games like Zelda and Metroid. They get the non gamer interested with games like Wii sports, Wii Play and Wii Fit. Games that only would slightly interest the core gamer. Once the non-gamers are interested in games just to pass the time once and a while, they become what we would consider casual gamers, this is when Nintendo can start bringing them together. Casual gamers generally aren't afraid to play games like Mario Kart and Smash Bros and they just love games like Guitar Hero and DDR. These games are also games that the core gamer would play. Now, Smash Bros is a very interesting game here because it features characters from other games, this gets people interested in the Core franchises. People think because they use Link all the time in Brawl, they'll probably like the Zelda games, and then they are willing to try a zelda game and when the love it, they might try some other core games. Once they're interested in games, there are many paths they could follow depending on what bridge titles they try, but in the end, in the long run, once they gain interest in games many people will eventually try a core game and as long as they don't do it too soon, they'll probably love it.

 

You can only make so many waggle sports and cooking sim games before the casual gamers get bored with the same thing over and over again.

 

[Hellfire]

The ideal is to have something accessible enough for casual* gamers, but have enough challenge, control and freedom for core gamers.

 

Nintendo used to be excellent at this - look at Super Mario World or Link to the Past. Whilst Zelda is not an RPG, it takes the best elements from them and makes it accessible, creating a new genre.

 

Nintendo really ought to bring back camera control for their next console. I can understand not everyone likes to control the camera, but other people do. The ideal is to have a good camera that you don't need to adjust, but you can if you want to. If the game chooses every angle for you, it's less interactive and more like a film.

 

* "core" and "casual" used for ease.

They still are, Zelda's dungeons are pretty hard, while the enemies are easy, Galaxy is easy, but hard to finish 100%, Wario needs skill to truly be finished, Prime 3 is pretty hard, etc...

Also, why do you always bring up the camera thing, not only is it very lossely related to this, they didn't choose not to do it, it's simply not viable to do it in Zelda with the current control scheme. Galaxy had camera control.

[darksnowman]

He's a top developer but you just have to read, "Peter Molyneux says no more Wii Sports - and more games for both casual and core gamers," to realise that this is a bit... bizarre. Wii Sports is already for both the casual and the core gamer.

[darkjak]

I think this is all going to end with people giving their heated definitions of 'core' and 'casual' for the bajillionth time.

 

It's difficult to make a game that caters equally well to core and casual gamers. It's got to be instantly accessible (something a core gamer might find too simple) but have a lot of depth and longevity (something a casual gamer might find frustrating).

 

The starfox example I gave before shows that it doesent have to be this way. Remember Lylat Wars? There were branching paths in the game. On the first level there was a section where you had to fly between rocks, which required you to lean the Arwing very preciselly. If you failed, you got to take the easy path, if you suceeded, you got to take the harder path. If you take this one step further, and as I said, add a challenge mode with short bursts of play, then that would be complex enough to not be dumbed down, and yet accessible enough for the casual.

Core people want to unlock stuff and end up on online leaderboards, while casuals want to have fun for 10 minutes.

 

I personally don't consider Smash Bros Brawl dumbed down, but I do think that the weapons have too much power in Mariokart Wii. I think that it's completely idiotic to tell where the secret stars are in Mario Galaxy. What was the point? Casuals per definition don't care about unlocking everything. As a matter of fact, if they buy Mario Galaxy, they apparently have the intent to, knowingly or unknowingly, move into the Core demography.

[david.dakota]

Hey, Peter, why not go the whole hog and deny people their tastes. Make nothing but one genre, and we all like it, or find a new hobby.

[dazzybee]

It has to be done in two stages. The first is getting them interested and then do you move them up.

 

For example my girlfriends mum. Hates videogames. Played the Wii LOVED it. Her favourite game is Wii Sports Golf. Because of this she was very excited to play Tiger Woods 09, she did and LOVED it.

 

Now if I went to her at the very beginning and said fancy plying Tiger Woods she would have said no way! In fact I would never have even asked her!!

 

You can't just give them starfox with simple controls and say play this, because they won't. Do they play Brawl?! No. You have to give them an even simpler spaceship game, they enjoy that and then you give them the next one!

 

These non gamers need enticing with the simplest of the simplest games and then they move up and up to more complicated experiences.

 

I think Nintendo are doing that very well, and that other developers are benefitting from it!

[Grazza]

They still are, Zelda's dungeons are pretty hard, while the enemies are easy, Galaxy is easy, but hard to finish 100%, Wario needs skill to truly be finished, Prime 3 is pretty hard, etc...

 

I don't disagree with any of that, but what Prime 3 and Twilight Princess don't have is immediacy. I found the tutorial for Prime 3 much harder than the original Prime, not only because the motion controls don't work very well, but Retro were never the best at accessibilty anyway. How many casual gamers are going to sit through that, or the three hours Twilight Princess takes to get going? (I point out, again, that a couple of hours were added to both versions so people could get used to the primitive Wii controls.)

 

The next Zelda should start with a rudimentary sword and shield and, BAM, you're into the game. Then casual gamers would have far more idea what the game is really about, and it might be more popular.

 

Also, why do you always bring up the camera thing, not only is it very lossely related to this, they didn't choose not to do it, it's simply not viable to do it in Zelda with the current control scheme. Galaxy had camera control.

 

Why do you dislike me saying it? It's strongly related to the balance between making games and systems more accessible/casual.

[darkjak]

It has to be done in two stages. The first is getting them interested and then do you move them up.

 

For example my girlfriends mum. Hates videogames. Played the Wii LOVED it. Her favourite game is Wii Sports Golf. Because of this she was very excited to play Tiger Woods 09, she did and LOVED it.

 

Now if I went to her at the very beginning and said fancy plying Tiger Woods she would have said no way! In fact I would never have even asked her!!

 

You can't just give them starfox with simple controls and say play this, because they won't. Do they play Brawl?! No. You have to give them an even simpler spaceship game, they enjoy that and then you give them the next one!

 

These non gamers need enticing with the simplest of the simplest games and then they move up and up to more complicated experiences.

 

I think Nintendo are doing that very well, and that other developers are benefitting from it!

 

Question: how the F**k do you create an even simpler game than what I just said? How do you streamline the controlls more than aim and shoot? where you in a majority of the missions don't even need to turn arround to shoot enemies that have flown past, because the game is on rails?

 

Your comparasint between Brawl and Melee is just...strange. I've owned all the Smash Bros games since the N64 original, and I can't see any simplifications what so ever. The game might be a bit slower than it's predecessor, and there are the "final smash" attacks, but beyond that the game's the same as its predecessors. Smash Bros was never suitable for casuals, and I can't see why anyone would think that Brawl somehow was simplified.

 

The casual gamers whom won't pick up Starfox with simple controlls are a lost cause, because these people have no interest in gaming and never will move on to the deeper games, because of preciselly this lack of interrest. Even if you give them twenty games with increasingly high complexity will they not carry through.

 

What Nintendo have done with Mario Galaxy has been to simplify a game to suit a demographic that quite simply has no interrest in such a game. Casuals want to play for maybe an hour a week. They don't want a game that takes 60, 20, 10 or even 5 hours to complete. They don't want any unlockables, and preferrably they don't want any level progression. They want to be able to pick any mode, level and song the first time they boot the game, and just have a bit of fun.

 

I would preffer if Nintendo would make core games that casuals can play, rather than it being the other way arround. I mean, imagine if the car industry listened purely to the non-drivers, because they're many. The ones whom use the car once a week to go shopping. Who want cars that have a gas, a wheel, breaks and who think it's complicated to repair the engine with any other tool than a sledgehammer. Then all the companys would be manufacturing variations of the Tuc Tuc:

And when drivers cry out for a car with air conditioning, four wheels, comfortable seats, a radio, sound insulation, and with an appearance that's less embarrasing, the car companies start pointing fingers at each other saying "but that's their job", and then General Motors say "Hah, people with drivers licenses are never happy, thereby we will not listen to ANYTHING they say".

[Emasher]

Darkjack, thats a great analogy, the only problem with it is that its something that might compare someone playing a game and someone watching the game better. The average driver still probably isn't really that interested in all kinds of features and stuff and most passengers will agree that air conditioning is a good thing.

 

And also, a lot of non-gamers aren't going to simply just pick up something like starfox, but they might play something similar, like it, and then ease into the more hardcore games. As I said, eventually people are going to get a little bored with all these really similar casual games. There's only so many times you can play a casual sports sim or a cooking game before the genre will get a little tired and they will begin to want something more.

[Sheikah]

They should NEVER think about bringing together the core and casual, so what an ass he is for saying this. Making a hardcore game have casual elements is exactly what people who consider themselves hardcore hate so much. And casual gamers really only care about playing the odd game sports/brain training related (or something else quite simple). 'Hardcore' gamers can like more casual games as standalone casual games, but they tend to dislike previously hardcore series being turned casual.

 

There's no need to bring them together, it's pointless. It's like one of those things that has no real reason for happening.

[Guest Maase]

NO, PETER, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

 

What you should really do:

 

-Give Casual games to the Casual market.

-Give Hardcore games to the Hardcore market.

-???

-Profit

 

Nintendo been doing that, even though they look themselves more on the casuals than the hardcore.

 

Or, you could make a All-Play style, and put two modes, one for casuals and one for hardcores, but that should be damn hard

[dazzybee]

Question: how the F**k do you create an even simpler game than what I just said? How do you streamline the controlls more than aim and shoot? where you in a majority of the missions don't even need to turn arround to shoot enemies that have flown past, because the game is on rails?

 

Your comparasint between Brawl and Melee is just...strange. I've owned all the Smash Bros games since the N64 original, and I can't see any simplifications what so ever. The game might be a bit slower than it's predecessor, and there are the "final smash" attacks, but beyond that the game's the same as its predecessors. Smash Bros was never suitable for casuals, and I can't see why anyone would think that Brawl somehow was simplified.

 

The casual gamers whom won't pick up Starfox with simple controlls are a lost cause, because these people have no interest in gaming and never will move on to the deeper games, because of preciselly this lack of interrest. Even if you give them twenty games with increasingly high complexity will they not carry through.

 

What Nintendo have done with Mario Galaxy has been to simplify a game to suit a demographic that quite simply has no interrest in such a game. Casuals want to play for maybe an hour a week. They don't want a game that takes 60, 20, 10 or even 5 hours to complete. They don't want any unlockables, and preferrably they don't want any level progression. They want to be able to pick any mode, level and song the first time they boot the game, and just have a bit of fun.

 

I would preffer if Nintendo would make core games that casuals can play, rather than it being the other way arround. I mean, imagine if the car industry listened purely to the non-drivers, because they're many. The ones whom use the car once a week to go shopping. Who want cars that have a gas, a wheel, breaks and who think it's complicated to repair the engine with any other tool than a sledgehammer. Then all the companys would be manufacturing variations of the Tuc Tuc:

And when drivers cry out for a car with air conditioning, four wheels, comfortable seats, a radio, sound insulation, and with an appearance that's less embarrasing, the car companies start pointing fingers at each other saying "but that's their job", and then General Motors say "Hah, people with drivers licenses are never happy, thereby we will not listen to ANYTHING they say".

 

But I think the presentation of the game would put people off; loads of games have been very simple to play; but presentation is...intimidating? Wii Sports nailed it, it looked a game that people wanted to play. This will then encourage them to play the more serious games of the same genre - boxing, tennis, baseball, golf etc. I think people who play wii music will then be more encouraged to play guitar hero (which actually is a pretty non gamer game as is).

 

I've seen other cases, people who have played Umbrella Chronicles have then gone and played Res 4 which they never would have beforehand because it looked complicated; but they were itching after getting the simpler taste of UC! But this goes against my 'presentation' argument above

 

And I really do think there IS room for mixing casual and core! Mario Kart does this for me perfectly.

[Emasher]

Look people. Mixing the casual and core market doesn't mean ubisoftizing every single hardcore game that will ever come out from this point on. It means making games that appeal to the hardcore and are deep and everything and hard to master ect, but someone who's new to gaming can pick up and play and enjoy without having to go too deep into it like the hardcore would.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Galaxy had camera control.

No it doesn't. I've had another bash getting a few stars and it's terrible. Just when you want it to turn to help it won't. I could only use the first person followed by a leap of faith moment.

[dazzybee]

No it doesn't. I've had another bash getting a few stars and it's terrible. Just when you want it to turn to help it won't. I could only use the first person followed by a leap of faith moment.

 

Yes it does have camera control! Sometimes it's not perfect, but it has it!

[EEVILMURRAY]

My apologies, I thought it said that Galaxy had good camera control. Which it doesn't.

[dazzybee]

I wouldn't call it terrible though. I think it's fine most of the time! Still doesn't stop it being the greatest game ever though.....