Dante

Church Sign Kissed a Girl

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I haven't read all of this thread but I feel the need to post this clip from the West Wing.

 

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Also, I can't talk about religion or about God. Because football will always somehow come into the discussion. :blank:

 

I know what you're trying to say mate, and I completely agree, Arsene Wenger is God. ;):)

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Hello there, just thought i'd start this post saying, that i'm an Atheist, so obviously your not going to agree with what I put.

 

But I hope we can both debate this topic on Christianity and religeon like mature adults. :smile:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ok for me to argue against any of your points, I first need you to tell me...

 

1. Why does God Exist?

2. Why did God create us?

3. Why did God create the Devil?

4. If God dictates how we should act (i.e don't be a homoesexual), then why did he give us free will?

5. Why can only dead people go to heaven?

6. Why did you choose Christianaty as your religeon?

7. You say God exists for whatever reasons, but there are no facts or evidence that he does exist, but you still beleive in him anyway, so how can I argue against that?

 

Ok I think that's enough questions for now and i'm going to finish this post off by saying...

 

Imagine you're playing a game. The game is, guess what colour i'm thinking and everytime someone guesses the right colour your thinking you have to give them £100.

 

So lets pretend you're thinking of the colour black and the man trying to guess what colour your thinking, says blue, obviously you know he's wrong because you're the one thinking of the colour. But how does he know that, it's impossible for him to know that! Even though it's a fact to you, it's impossible to prove that fact.

 

Therefore you can't use your opinion as fact and your opinion is, God exists.

 

Okay, well Bluey gave some answers, but anyway.

 

1: Is it really needed to be a reason for that? God has always existed.

 

2: He created us to be like Him. Well, as you can see at mankind nowadays, we're not like Him. But that was the initial thought.

 

3: He didn't create the Devil. I don't know how much in the Bible you have read, but the Devil was an Angel once... Called the morning star (Not sure if that's the correct name in English). He was one of the highest ranked Angels, but he wanted to be even higher than God. So God sent him out of Heaven. And thus the Devil was "born".

 

4: He gave us the free will because He loves us so much. He didn't want us to be robots... He wants us to follow Him because we wants to, not of any other reason. But sin is what keeps us away from God, that's one of the biggest reasons why it's so important not to sin. There's life in God, but without God there's only death.

 

5: I don't really understand the question. Sure, Heaven is not on earth so we can't just walk into it. But there are some persons in the Bible that was taken up to Heaven without going through death. Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire as an example. Also Enoch was taken up before the flood (you know, the Noah's ark. That flood.). Enoch was in God's eyes a righteous man, so he was taken up so he wouldn't die in the flood.

 

6: Not that it really has anything to do with anything, but my family is Christians so that was the first reason.

 

7: You can't. Unless you got proof that God doesn't exist... Which I'm sure that you haven't. So that part is all about belief.

 

I'm not really that good to argue in English because that's not my mother language... Just thought I would point that out.

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I know what you're trying to say mate, and I completely agree, Arsene Wenger is God. ;):)
Hence Arsenal's incredible trophy collection over the last few years! Pissing off you English football fans is just too easy :P

 

Seriously, it always annoys me how religious people have the arrogance they can use their personal beliefs to judge others, people who are totally irrelevant to their religion. Especially when the ideas are as medieval as they are here. Just let people be, FFS.

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2: He created us to be like Him. Well, as you can see at mankind nowadays, we're not like Him. But that was the initial thought.

 

Wait a second, as we're now more advanced - in intelligence and physical strength - than we were, surely, by what you're saying, we're better than your god, as we used to be just like him.

 

4: There's life in God, but without God there's only death.

 

Ah, but remember, "there are no atheists in foxholes" - a god is possibly the best motivator for getting lots of people bloodthirsty.

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Considering Finland has one of the highest agnostic/atheist percentages in the world, how do you feel about the significant atheist population in your country?

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Enoch was taken up before the flood (you know, the Noah's ark. That flood.). Enoch was in God's eyes a righteous man, so he was taken up so he wouldn't die in the flood.

 

The moment you bring something that would be ridiculously obvious in rock faces, but isn't, your argument looses all credibility.

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Hence Arsenal's incredible trophy collection over the last few years! Pissing off you English football fans is just too easy :P

 

Sometimes God punishes us, its in times like these we must show more faith than ever. ;) :P

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Wait a second, as we're now more advanced - in intelligence and physical strength - than we were, surely, by what you're saying, we're better than your god, as we used to be just like him.

 

We were created to be like Him, that does not mean we were created just like Him.

 

Oh, and Sanchez I don't think that's true. A high percentage of the Finnish population do believe in God. Our neighbours are another story though...

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I don't understand why that's even a credible answer. I assume it's because it's the only possible retort a person of faith can have to the arguement.

 

You realise that not all gay people are young with spiky hair, big sunglasses, pink t-shirts and screaming, before sauntering into bars, right?

 

Please can religious people (Christians being the only ones I can actually commenton with any authority) actually get a real state of mind for once. Really annoying me.

 

Read books that provoke and stimulate, not that dictate.

 

I don't see any problems with my above comments; in fact I don't even grasp what point you are trying to raise? I was merely pointing out one area in which I didn't agree with Nasir. Is it not true that people can born bias one way or another, or that they have a conscious ability to choose themselves? I felt in necessary to point that out, after writing in support of his first point.

And I never pre-judged gay people to have spiky hair, in fact none of the gay people I have known have ever had spiky hair.

Also I love reading, from the liberal sciences, to the classics, and many modern books in-between.

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I haven't read all of this thread but I feel the need to post this clip from the West Wing.

 

 

i litteraly applauded him. if a gun was fired at a president that bad ass, id take the bullet, and im not even american.

 

back onto the topic (or not as it happens), we have reached the inevitable stalemate. as much as there is no evidence that god does exist, theres none that he dosent. sure, we can prove that things didnt go down like in the bible (such as there not being enough water in the world to create the floods of noah) or evidence that not just the world, but humans are older then the 6,000 years stated by the bible.

 

certain parts of the bible confuse me, god is all knowing, right? in that case he KNEW that the snake would would tempt eve, and KNEW that she would eat the apple. but as the apple opened her eyes to right and wrong, before having eaten it, she couldnt have known it was wrong to dissobey god. she had no concept of this.

 

in essence god knew that humans would fall from grace, but did nopthing to prevent it, or even give us any means to avoid it.

 

i can understand the whole casting the devil (lucifer was his angel name) from heaven. after all, the angels have freewill and the ambition of lucifer eventualy damned him. funnily enough, thats a very common story line, hell even morgoth, the dark lord in the simarilion, who was king over sauron from lord of the rings did this. its probebly the most over used story line ever, the student trying to over throw the master.

 

jesus in the bible is anouther sticky wicket, largly based on a roman religious figure (born on december 25, son of a god, died on easter to be born again). historians seem to belive that in relaity, jesus was born in march, and never claimed to be the son of god, and these details were later added to make him more acceptable to the people.

 

i have no real issue with people beliving in a deity, i'll admit theres a slim possibility it could be true, but faith in the bible, a book that has clear inconsitencies and false information in it (claimes rabbits mulch food like a cow) is like sitting on a sinking boat, refusing to accept its going down.

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Oh, and Sanchez I don't think that's true. A high percentage of the Finnish population do believe in God. Our neighbours are another story though...

 

It is true approximately 35-60% of finland are agnostic, atheist or do not believe in a god, which by world standards is quite a high figure. Given that they have a significant influence do you ever feel persecuted or ignored by your government. And how do you feel about the atheist population on the whole. Would you prefer if there were less of them or do you not mind at all?

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back onto the topic (or not as it happens), we have reached the inevitable stalemate.

I think you are right.

in essence god knew that humans would fall from grace, but did nopthing to prevent it, or even give us any means to avoid it.

The bible gives the reason for this saying that "the lamb slain at the foundation of the world", so in fact God knew we would fall, and that his son would have to die, all before he made us, but seeing the end from the beginning, he considered it worth while.

jesus in the bible is anouther sticky wicket, largly based on a roman religious figure (born on december 25, son of a god, died on easter to be born again). historians seem to belive that in relaity, jesus was born in march, and never claimed to be the son of god, and these details were later added to make him more acceptable to the people.

There is a lot of evidence that Jesus did claim to be God, examples include "before the world was I am" (from Johns gospel as well as other manuscripts both canonical and non canonical), in fact there is more scientific evidence that Jesus existed than for Caesar. He was a real man, and made claims, weather you believe him is another matter. And yes you are right he wasn't born on the 25th December, that was a mix of Pagan and Jewish festivals, I think it's now assumed that he was born October.

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6: Not that it really has anything to do with anything, but my family is Christians so that was the first reason.

 

Personally, I think, to keep your beliefs strong then you must challenge what you believe in. Have you ever looked into any other religions to see if they are right for you? Or if you can make more sense of them than Christianity?

 

You shouldn't be a Christian just because your family are, you should be one because of the choice you have made, have you done research into a wide range of other beliefs and found that Christianity is most compatible with you?

 

Otherwise (too a lesser extent) I really think its a similar story to America's Most Hated Family, I don't blame their kids, as they have been brought up to believe what they believe, but we can see they have been brainwashed from a young age therefore it happens to be the only thing they know.

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I don't see why people are so proud of believing in something there is no reason to. Is it some kind of achievement?

 

You can't prove he doesn't exist. Nasir can't prove he does.

All that is left is personal belief and speculation.

 

 

Carry on.

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7: You can't. Unless you got proof that God doesn't exist... Which I'm sure that you haven't. So that part is all about belief.

 

You have to prove things for them to exist, not the other way around, otherwise you could say absolutely anything existed and because people couldn't prove otherwise they must be wrong.

 

With anything in life, it's always proof that is required for theories and mechanisms. Why should 'God' be any different?

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Well, it seems that it's a bit tricky trying to find out how many atheists and agnostics Finland really has. According to Statistics Finland(1), by the end of 2007 81.8% of the population were Lutheran. Then we have a survey by the church(2) from 2001 that says 36% of Finns accept the church's concept of God, while 28% have their own definition for God. Last there is a statistic (3) from 2004 that says 28-60% of Finns are atheists or agnostics. The end result? A big mess.

 

It is true that the majority of the population in Finland is Lutheran, however, it is debatable how many people do actively attend church. According to my own experience, the majority of people are just nominal Christians. This would include the most people I know, like my family, relatives and friends. People are a part of the church just because everyone else is and their parents were as well. Young people do attend confession camps (no idea what the correct term is) at the age of 15, but that too is more out of habit than actual Christian beliefs. Very few people that I know actually speak of God etc. Also, the resignation rate has been on the rise whereas the number of new members has been decreasing as well (4).

 

jesus in the bible is anouther sticky wicket, largly based on a roman religious figure (born on december 25, son of a god, died on easter to be born again). historians seem to belive that in relaity, jesus was born in march, and never claimed to be the son of god, and these details were later added to make him more acceptable to the people.

 

This reminds me of Zeitgeist. Now that was an interesting internet-movie indeed.

 

Oh, and how come every Finn ever to come onto this forum is a god-botherer?

 

I'm a Buddhist myself. I guess that would make me a god-botherer as well? :D

 

It’s my responsibly to show God’s love to all people; without applying my own judgment as to who is deserving of it or not. I believe that us Christians focus far to much on telling people what God doesn’t like, when we should be telling them what God does like, and that’s every single person--

 

Exactly. To me the concept of any "religion" stands for personal development and kindness, whatever their outer differences might be. Religions do hold such potential, but unfortunately they also possess the seeds for intolerance and the judging of others. We need more love and less hating.

 

1) http://www.stat.fi/tup/suoluk/suoluk_vaesto_en.html

2)http://www.evl.fi/kkh/ktk/nelivuotiskertomus2000_2003/muutokset/index.htm#7_3

3) http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

4) http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkosta_eroaminen_Suomessa

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You have to prove things for them to exist, not the other way around, otherwise you could say absolutely anything existed and because people couldn't prove otherwise they must be wrong.

 

So? If you can't prove it doesn't exist, then it's possible, no matter how unlikely.

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So? If you can't prove it doesn't exist, then it's possible, no matter how unlikely.

Nope, that's not how life works. If we could say that anything existed because there wasn't proof to say it didn't, we'd be innundated with a host of magical beings/chocolate talking teapots/invisible newts that could actually exist.

 

Proof is exactly how it sounds - you prove something is what it is. To prove something doesn't exist is almost impossible, since you'd have to search every crevice of the Earth and space, possibly the universe. That is why things do not exist by default, and must first be proven to exist.

 

The same holds true for anything really, particularly in science. The fact that people use the line 'you can't prove God doesn't exist' shows what a load of hocus pocus they are believing in to begin with. If people are so uncertain about their life that they feel the need to confide in a concept with absolutely no proof then so help them.

 

IMO. ;)

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in fact there is more scientific evidence that Jesus existed than for Caesar.

 

What?

The?

Fuck?

 

I've heard this claim before, and my bullshit-o-meter once again imploded. This is purely Christian propaganda, and is anti-science of the highest order.

 

For starters, there are over 900 letters by Cicero, a contemporary of Caesar's, regarding him. Then there was Sallust, a tribune, provincial governor and supporter of Caesar who wrote extensively of him. His testimony is in a history "Bellum Catalinae". Nepos, Catullus, Asinius Pollio, Virgil and Ovid, all contemporaries of Caesar, all very well known to have existed, all wrote about him, or even too him.

 

This is just a fraction of the evidence for his existence, and is already much, much more than the case for Jeebus.

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It is true approximately 35-60% of finland are agnostic, atheist or do not believe in a god, which by world standards is quite a high figure. Given that they have a significant influence do you ever feel persecuted or ignored by your government. And how do you feel about the atheist population on the whole. Would you prefer if there were less of them or do you not mind at all?

 

It appears you're right. I looked it up and something I'm wondering about is why the Nordic countries have so high percentage of Atheism... Sweden, Norway and Denmark have higher percentage than Finland. But I haven't really felt ignored by our government, no.

 

To answer what I feel about the atheist population... well, I want everyone to be saved and have eternal life. So, yeah I do mind it quite a bit. I'm not forcing anyone to believe in Jesus Christ though, cause' it's a choice everyone has to make for themselves. What I can do, is to talk about Jesus for them and what He can give to anyone who believes in Him. Then all those that hear my words may decide for themselves if they want to follow Jesus or not.

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I'm a Buddhist myself. I guess that would make me a god-botherer as well? :D

 

No, it makes you the exception. You're also the first Buddhist to announce themselves as such on this forum, to my knowledge. Yay pacifism!

 

To answer what I feel about the atheist population... well, I want everyone to be saved and have eternal life. So, yeah I do mind it quite a bit. I'm not forcing anyone to believe in Jesus Christ though

 

You're just emotionally blackmailing them.

 

I never quite got the appeal of eternal life, to be honest. After several million years, I, for one, would be bored, I imagine.

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I'm a pastafarian.... come and join me my pirate brothers and sisters

 

May you be touched by His Noodley Appendage, friend...

 

:awesome:

 

Actually, good example for the "can't prove it doesn't exist" argument. You can't prove there is no FSM, nor can you disprove Russel's Teapot.

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Religion is not for everyone. The sooner we all accept that the better. I thought most people had but i guess there are still the odd few fighting a pointless cause.

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