pedrocasilva Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 Ok, first off... let me start of by saying that I'm basing myself on very old information. The Interview, core to this thread existing: What systems can fans expect to see MegaTen games on in the future? Kaneko: Probably the PS3 and Wii. I would really love to bring MegaTen to Wii. What would a Wii MegaTen game be like? Kaneko: Well, if you play Nocturne or Digital Devil Saga, they're typical modern RPGs. You see your characters act from a third-person view. But as you and your readers probably know, the original MegaTen games used a completely different first-person viewpoint. I would love to go back to basics with MegaTen on the Wii and bring back the first-person perspective, while using the controller to let players experience their environments directly. Source: http://www.hardcoregamer.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=96&Itemid=29 And this, was in August 2006 before Wii even launched, let alone them thinking of it leading the market, hence why PS3 could be mentioned first in terms of priorities. But... they were open to it. Atlus profile: Atlus was founded in 1986, they're known for developing the role-playing series Shin Megami Tensei. Atlus U.S.A. is the American subsidiary of the japanese video game publisher, their US division is strictly a publisher, ofttimes localizing obscure or niche titles from other Japanese developers, being cited to only bring over titles whoom they like (often niche). At one point of 2002 they were on the verge of bankrupcy. They're a pretty small company who lives out of niche games, not having even one title reaching one million sales in more than 20 years of activity, and only one breaking the 500.000 units, a Wii game no less. Facts: - Trauma Center Wii became their best selling game ever, by topping only 500.000 units sold worldwide.- Their highest selling japanese title ever was Megami Ibun Roku Persona (Persona 1) clocking at 420.000 sold. (released in 1996) - In PS2 era their highest selling title in Japan was Shin Megami Tensei 3 at 250.000, featuring Dante from DMC to help sales. - Capcom accepted Dante from Devil May Cry to appear in Shin Megami Tensei 3 under the condition their designer Kazuma Kaneko designed Dante and Vergil's Devil Trigger form for Devil May Cry 3. - Their games tend to be rare and the first print tends to be a collectors edition of sorts, in US SMT3:Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga brought OST CD's with them, Persona 3 brought a hardcase with a artbook and the OST (retailing at $40), and in Europe Digital Devil Saga 2 brought a OST as well. From these US versions, SMT3 and DDS are known to have been out of print for years (SMT3 got a reprint 2 months ago and DDS will follow though) but have been known, and versions with OST's, be sold around $100. - When reprinted, stores like GameStop in US open the cases and sell them as used copies, because the used price for these games is higher than the standard "new" recommended price for the game. - Their main studio, Atlus R&D1 developed all their PS2 Megaten games with the same engine. - Megami Tensei started on the NES - Namco published it and Atlus was part of it Kaneko: Oh, I really can't remember... it was definitely a NES game. I know my first game was Kings of Kings, back when Atlus was a division of Namco. - Shin Megami Tensei series started it's life on Super Nintendo - They rock. - They have a good partnership with Nintendo. Atlus USA even brought a Nintendo in-house title to US, Cubivore, since Nintendo was too weary to actually publish it outside Japan. - Nintendo brought over Trauma Center to Europe. - Their mascot is Jack Frost. - Jack Frosts only game as a leading character, Jack Bros. came out on Virtual Boy. - At one point Microsoft wanted to moneyhat Shin Megami Tensei for the Xbox so they've come with their money onto Atlus and agreed on them making SMT:NINE for them, Atlus took the money, looked for prices and outsourced it to Nex Entertainment reportedly the cheapest developer to outsource to, then took the money for Shin Megami Tensei 3: Lucifer's Call. Attitude and balls! - They're bringing Persona 4 for PS2. History of Megaten here: -> http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.com/megaten/megaten.htm Why bringing it to the Wii above other platforms? - RPG starved, Atlus and Shin Megami Tensei series need to grow.- Mass Market - their highest selling title ever is a Wii launch game. - Easy platform to develop for, if they port their engine they can keep using it, only with a bigger roof. - Cheaper development costs. - Small team/resources/money - No need to expand the team at least in a massive way - 6.5 million install base in Japan (and counting), against PS3's 2.5 million this is more than double the userbase. - Market leader in US and Europe as well - Japanese console/market acceptance for variety. - Core userbase is not tainted with - If Atlus US is smart VC can bring over older Shin Megami Tensei's. - Wihile expanding their demographic on the Wii, they can port their engine and all their PS2 games with 16:9 and 480p, these games live out of their artistic directions and are pretty slick anyway so it understandable as long as they keep bringing new ones as well. that way they can keep such rare games on-print and cash-in on them, for more Wii projects. - They're clearly stalling regarding a platform jump, with Persona 4 is coming for PS2, hopefully Wii too. Persona 4 is coming for the PS2? Why should I want a PS2 port on my Wii? Because Persona and Shin Megami Tensei don't live out of it's graphics (and can't due to budget constraints and niche audience) they live out of it's artistic direction. Persona in particular is also a very friendly, varied and well paced game, so it's one of the best RPG's in recent years. Why should I care? You should. Artistic Direction? what a bullcr... Ok, then look at this: -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLK3ExblplQ I won't click that, what about some images? Sure. Shin Megami Tensei 3: Lucifer's Call: Persona 3: Why should I care, since I have a PS2 Why should you not want Atlus supporting a extra platform with little cost increase, and a market leader at that then? PS2 won't last forever... In fact... shouldn't you be concerned that Persona 4 gets localized as the time goes by? As well as it's marketability? It won't come out of Japan in 2008, that's for sure and titles like Vagrant Story in other generations have been prejudiced by dying and saturated consoles. And even if it comes what if they do a Persona 4 FES? Persona 4 Wii and future installments (as well as old if they enhance them) all the way. Besides, Persona 3 in Europe only supports 50 Hz with black bars on the PS2. And you'd most likely have 16:9 480p with it, a butchered version. And hey, like Peter Moore once said... Things break and PS2's are prone to that. Ok, then, what do we want from them? Whatever they do we don't want the pack being leaded by secondary even more niche titles (as in, inferior), and if they're messing with their established properties don't make them solely first person, Japanese people are allergic to that, if anything, Atlus published a Baroque remake for the Wii, who featured a first person mode akin to the original Saturn/PSone dungeon crawler... but kept a 3rd person option. Wii titles don't have to be alternative, what's welcome is them having alternative options and features, as well as solutions that do make sense. So... What can I do? Not much, but here's what... You can spread the word over the intrawebs of how much sense Shin Megami Tensei would make on the Wii and how great it would be. you can write articles or post this thread on another forum (please do so it it does anything for the the awareness of it) Ways to ask Atlus? Sure. -> http://atlus.com/contactus.php In Recipient I think we should choose Public Relations, but you can always send, use back and resend to Business Development as well. Suggestion: Hi, is there any way of Atlus to consider bringing Shin Megami Tensei titles to the Wii? And of course if you want to develop the query more and ask for Persona 4 or whatever... you are free to do so But... I want a more direct approach, the US guys don't decide anything: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Suggestion: 真・女神転生 Wii おねがい! [translation: Shin Megami Tensei Wii onegai/please] Not exactly fluent Japanese, but it works. Alternatively: ペルソナ4 Wii おねがい! [translation: Persona 4 Wii onegai/please] I'll tell you this... this won't make a difference! Perhaps, but hey, I tried and I always try my best to drive my vision forward. Would you rather do a useless petition? I rather raise awareness and create buzz, as well as beg and hope I'm listened to while proving there's demand. We're seeing more and more RPG's coming for the Wii, Atlus is small and high budgets from HD consoles don't suit them, as well as lower demographics when they need to sell the game to as many people as possible. It's worth trying, takes 2 minutes to send those mails, and I've taken way longer in research and writing this. Sending them and leaving me some feedback on this thread (or copy pasting it onto other forum for more people to read) is the best thanks you can give me. Final thoughts: You're free, welcome and encouraged to leave comments bellow. As well as free to copy paste this thread elsewhere if that brings awareness and buzz for this, let's put Shin Megami Tensei and the Wii on the same page! And don't tl;dr (too long; didn't read) me! Also if you don't give a damn about my post you can always do a discussion of how nice Shin Megami Tensei would be on the Wii, how you liked Persona 4 video and how you'd like more RPG's on the Wii (from Atlus and in general), as well as when contacting them, you can also say such things. [if anyone takes the "post this in other forums" seriously and knowing that when you make quotes here... the quotes within the post quote are lost and I have quite a few... PM me, and I'll give you a notepad or something]
killer kirby Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 Killer Kirby aproves of this thread But I do hope that atlus soon decides to put some RPG's onto the Wii, hell even bringing the PS2 ones over, one of the only few games I would not mind coming from the PS2 on to the Wii ^^ Persona 3 rocks by the way, if any of you have a PS2.....BUY IT!!!!!
Hellfire Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 Awesome thread. I love Atlus, they make amazing games, Persona is sweet. Releasing P4 for Wii would be a great move on their part.
ShadowV7 Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 Great thread Pedro. Completely agree with what you say aswell. Artistic wise, I have to say that the graphics look fantastic. Would make a good editino to my Wii Collection.
Domstercool Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 Only a rumour at the mo, but solid information about one coming to the PS3 is true. To be honest though, I don't think the series is suited for the Wii market, it will probably bomb like alot of other 3rd party stuff. They sell on the PS2, it's why Persona 4 is coming to that system and not the PS3 at this moment in time. It would be nice, but I wouldn't wait on it, just buy a cheap PS2 instead and enjoy their massive catalogue of awesomeness.
Hellfire Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 Only a rumour at the mo, but solid information about one coming to the PS3 is true. To be honest though, I don't think the series is suited for the Wii market, it will probably bomb like alot of other 3rd party stuff. They sell on the PS2, it's why Persona 4 is coming to that system and not the PS3 at this moment in time. It would be nice, but I wouldn't wait on it, just buy a cheap PS2 instead and enjoy their massive catalogue of awesomeness. I don't think either Persona or Shin Megami sell that well on ps2, making a Wii version is maximizing profit and considering everyone and their mother has a Wii, it would be a safe bet.
Calza Posted June 28, 2008 Posted June 28, 2008 But more people have a PS2, so I don't see how that would make the Wii version more profitable if they have extra costs when compared to the PS2 version.
pedrocasilva Posted June 28, 2008 Author Posted June 28, 2008 I don't think either Persona or Shin Megami sell that well on ps2, making a Wii version is maximizing profit and considering everyone and their mother has a Wii, it would be a safe bet.Indeed, they sell on a small scale on PS2 and the market is shrinking now, if anything and with BC being on it's way out of PS3's there's no "natural progression" into them from purchasers (as in I bought a PS3 I'll buy P4 for it), but the success it deserves? hell no. PS3? simply has no market at this point. As for a PS3 game being in the works... could be recurring theme of "oh shit, we started it before we've seen where PS3 was heading now it's too late, brace for impact and stale development to see if the thing starts having a userbase and tie ratio improves" or like Persona 4 some months ago who was repeatedly slatted for PS3 and even announced if I recall correctly... and then megaton stuck: New Persona game cancelled for PS3, moved to PS2 We have received a news tip that Bloomberg Japan is reporting that the new Persona game originally slated for the PS3 has been cancelled and is now being scheduled for a release on the PS2 instead. Source: http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=23756 If it ever was in development that is, akin to Monster Hunter 3 and the like. If it is in development, at this point it is a bad business move, why do people think Square-Enix is going bollocks with the profits talk and no criativity etc? They have too many high budget titles for the PS3 in the oven for too many years, like leeches. Megaten on PS3 confirmed after that? I'd say rumored. And we have the market for such game, for one we aren't flooded yet like PS2 was, neither are we third in the race worldwide or second in any part of the world already, that or slacking regarding sales meaning we won't get caught if things go like this in foreseeable future. If we go by console generations... Wii needs a FF7 or FF10 now, and since Square-Enix is slow to turn over... that could very well be a Persona 4 or something along those lines to a certain extent, except Persona is not lame like FF10 was. But more people have a PS2, so I don't see how that would make the Wii version more profitable if they have extra costs when compared to the PS2 version.PS2 is dying, there's still more xbox 1 than Xbox 360's out there, let's release xbox 1 titles instead? I don't think so. and N64 sold more than GC, should developers have sticked to it? PS2 market is now more slated at platinum, low pricetags and freebies, atlus understands that well when they put Persona's at $40 with an artbook and a OST CD for free. Awesome value... For a pretty good reason too and I appreciate it. But the platform is dying, and the profit of giving so much stuff for $40 means low profits, they could be selling those for $60 on the Wii and it would be absolutely worth it. Besides, a Wii version could recoup costs easily, prepare their engine for future endeavors, and add 16:9 and 480p; something I'd appreciate and be sure to buy when making my purchase. Hell, and let's look at conjecture Persona 3 took a full 1 year to come out of japan for US, plus 6 extra months for a butchered down PAL version... if this takes as long it'll be Q3 2009 when it comes out in US and 2010 in PAL-lands, once we know it, support will be plugged (perhaps even for P4, it didn't sell that well in europe for 50€ and no artbook and OST, as well as 50 Hz; let alone justifying PAl5 support, P3FES is not announced to be coming yet), and if they still have time to do a Persona 4 FES, or whatever, we're bound to be left hanging waiting for the game at some point; that's why they have to move on, and on the Wii they can keep going with little adaptation in standards and the like, for them, that's acceptable (their games strength is artistic). It's a smooth transition to the Wii, not to mention they're going from the previous market leader to the actual market leader which is the natural transition, all this not requiring, for instance, doubling the budget and team, or building a engine from the ground/learning new tools... meaning more productivity out of the box and a pretty ideal console for them. If they were so concerned about power too, they wouldn't do Persona 4 for the PS2 anyway, they're seemingly satisfied.
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 That game was indeed Persona 4, but not the new SMT game on the PS3. There's no proof that they would or would not sell on Wii, but by looking at trends of other 3rd parties, it wouldn't sell. Just because Trauma Centre doesn't mean SMT would. They are totally different type of games that the audience isn't right for. People, even casuals would probably be interesting in Trauma because of the controls and content, they would not be interested at all in SMT, which is about messed up stories and the like. Atlus have already signed up 3 games for the 360, so the PS3 isn't out the question, which has more consoles sold in Japan than 360 anyway. So that point isn't valid. you can dream about one appearing on the Wii, but you'll only be saddened when it never happens. It's staying on playstation. You forget how Atlus love to release unknown titles on that system with more still coming to Sony's little small system. Atlus can't help but love to stick games on it, with more coming this year.
killer kirby Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 There's no proof that they would or would not sell on Wii, but by looking at trends of other 3rd parties, it wouldn't sell. The trend? Which one are you talking about? Because from what I see, most 3rd party games are a crappy bunch of ports from the PS2 to the Wii and don't say No More Heroes, just because it didn't get a million sales worldwide, does not mean that it was a complete failure. Just because Trauma Centre doesn't mean SMT would. They are totally different type of games that the audience isn't right for. Yet still, there are very little GOOD RPG's on the Wii system (If at all any), how did the tales series become a success again? Oh that's right, there were not that many RPG's on the Gamecube with such epic lengths, people bought it because they wanted an RPG for thier system. People, even casuals would probably be interesting in Trauma because of the controls and content, they would not be interested at all in SMT, which is about messed up stories and the like. Yet, when I ask some of my friends who have a PS2 (And are Sony fans may I add) if they have any of the SMT? They would always say no. Why? Because they are too busy playing RPG's like Final Fantasy X, do they care about SMT? heck no, and from the look of sales of the games compared to the amount of people who own a PS2, it seems like they don't care at all, they care more about FF games and Kingdom Hearts. The Wii has more sales then the other 2 consoles (What were they called again?) And yet the big companies are not making any BIG Wii titles. It's not a big risk for Atlus to do put persona 4 on the Wii. And most likely start to see more people like it because...well, it's a GOOD RPG, and while there are no Good RPG's and the Wii sales are much higher the gamecubes, you would think Atlus would at least give it a try. Atlus have already signed up 3 games for the 360, If that's true, you would think that M$ are a joke now, after what Atlus did to them the last time they got moneyhatted by M$. You would have thought they would have learnt thier lesson. you can dream about one appearing on the Wii, but you'll only be saddened when it never happens. It's staying on playstation. Ugh...I love how people say things like this, wasn't Monster Hunter 3 and Dragon Quest IX going onto the playstation system? What was the reason again? Oh that's right, because forum members said so, lol You forget how Atlus love to release unknown titles on that system with more still coming to Sony's little small system. Atlus can't help but love to stick games on it, with more coming this year. But Atlus also love another thing....money, and releasing SMT on the Sony System when they are competing against FF. The Wii has no big brand of RPG on the system and small companies are seeing this and are now starting to take advantage, I don't see why Atlus would not want money
Deathjam Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 But more people have a PS2, so I don't see how that would make the Wii version more profitable if they have extra costs when compared to the PS2 version. More people may have bought a pS2, but doesn't mean they are using them right now. Could be gathering dust in a box somewhere, replaced as the main console by something from this gen, or it could simply have failed on them after all this time. only natural. Havent actually played any of the personas or SMT games because I have way too many RPGS still yet to be completed to my satisfaction, and if you buy one SMT, you really need to buy them all to get the whole story. Ugh too many games to complete now, most of them massive.
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 Don't say No More Hereos? Then how about Boom Blox? Since that really did sell didn't it.... And if it isn't a failure at low sales, then what's wrong with Atlus having games on PS2? People do still play that system and people still want their games that come out in Japan to come out over here in the PS2, just look around. Atlus don't seem that too interested in sales because they still bring crazy unique games to the PS2. If you are fans of Atlus games then you would already own a PS2 and a DS, since most of their games come out on those systems. And the 360 games are true, there's Operation Darkness, Spectral Force 3 and The mech game that I can't remember off the top of my head. So yeah, Dragon Quest 9 hit the DS, still FF13 isn't. How many fans were outraged at DQ9 hitting the DS, a damn lot that is for sure. Same with Parasite Eve 3 been on a mobile, bloody stupid. I'm all for Wii RPGs but you have to look at the deeper picture, apart from us Nintendo fans that already bought Gamecubes, the rest of the Wii owners are casual gamers. So that would make even less people playing it if you think about it. So yeah, you can ignore me or whatever, but like I said, don't get your hopes up, I might be wrong, but at this moment in time, There's no proof that there are any coming or not and if you was a fan of Atlus, you'd already have other systems to play their games. If not, then that's tough luck.
pedrocasilva Posted June 29, 2008 Author Posted June 29, 2008 That game was indeed Persona 4, but not the new SMT game on the PS3.Wait... let's go by parts... Shin Megami Tensei 3 on PS3 was spoken of once, in 2005 in Famitsu... let's see what else Atlus spoke at one point and never materialized, regarding say... PSP: TGS 2004: New PSP Games Announced September 21, 2004 Atlus is bringing Persona to the system and is resurrected a Sega Saturn classic, Princess Crown. Fonte: http://psp.ign.com/articles/549/549974p1.html Recurring theme from PSP for PS3... Lots of hype and focus on being more than a console (we read bluray/UMD's, etc), lower userbase than they wanted to, low tie ratios, we could go on. Is Persona PSP ever coming? who knows, but newsflash... It definitely wasn't active developed since 2004. Still, right now would make 10 times more sense than a PS3 project in sustainability and userbase. That piece of news was even before we knew Persona was coming for PS2 (only announced 2 years later, in March 2006 in Japan), so if anything, they confirmed a game that never came. Bottom line being, don't trust Atlus, if 3 years have gone and nothing materialized (3 in PS3's case 2005-2008) So... What SMT title on PS3? might materialize, might not, and if it does materialize isn't it a better risk and investment than doing it for the Wii, so why not again? right, just because. There's no proof that they would or would not sell on Wii, but by looking at trends of other 3rd parties, it wouldn't sell.Oh really? first it wouldn't sell now it's "we have no proof wether it would or not, but it wouldn't" based on what? and why would it sell on PS3 again? Third party's are selling on the Wii you know, more than Nintendo even... And those third party sales alone amount already to more than Microsoft did on same part of their consoles life without separating first, second and third party (wilst separating for the Wii and putting only third party sales in the table) it's a monster, and yeah it's selling, worldwide with a better tie ratio than PS3. Besides we're talking about measly costs to make such conversion. Just because Trauma Centre doesn't mean SMT would. They are totally different type of games that the audience isn't right for. People, even casuals would probably be interesting in Trauma because of the controls and content, they would not be interested at all in SMT, which is about messed up stories and the like.Yes, but it's still the best selling Atlus title ever, why wouldn't they develop more and expand their market on such platform? Oh right, because it wouldn't sell, yet they have their biggest selling title on such platform (even if it has a broader appeal)Atlus have already signed up 3 games for the 360, so the PS3 isn't out the question, which has more consoles sold in Japan than 360 anyway. So that point isn't valid.As a publisher my friend, you're very, very confused. Japanese Atlus has no known X360 titles in development, Atlus USA is bringing over Operation Darkness, Spectral Force 3: Innocent Rage and Zoids Assault. But it isn't theirs, at all. you can dream about one appearing on the Wii, but you'll only be saddened when it never happens. It's staying on playstation. You forget how Atlus love to release unknown titles on that system with more still coming to Sony's little small system. Atlus can't help but love to stick games on it, with more coming this year.Yes, staying playstation as it stayed on Nintendo after Super Nintendo, it's not going anywhere because there's no market? lol. Makes sense to do, wether they'll do it or not it's up to them, but it does make sense. Hell, they even said prior to Wii launching that they'd like to make Megaten Wii, somehow with Wii now selling the chances of such dropped? I'd say... hardly, specially compared when no one knew what to expect from them. Don't say No More Hereos? Then how about Boom Blox? Since that really did sell didn't it.... And if it isn't a failure at low sales, then what's wrong with Atlus having games on PS2? People do still play that system and people still want their games that come out in Japan to come out over here in the PS2, just look around. Atlus don't seem that too interested in sales because they still bring crazy unique games to the PS2.No More Heroes is simply Suda's 51 best selling game ever. Yes, we'd love 1 million sold and all that... but it's not a flop by any means. And hey, it's the best selling Suda51 game no thanks to PS2, hell Killer7 sold more on GC. What does No More Heroes prove? As for bloom box, Electronic Arts said it was going according to their projections and they didn't have a advertiser budget for US as they didn't do TV ads. If you are fans of Atlus games then you would already own a PS2 and a DS, since most of their games come out on those systems. And the 360 games are true, there's Operation Darkness, Spectral Force 3 and The mech game that I can't remember off the top of my head.I already answered this. A PS2, probably, DS... not so much. But note another thing... that doesn't mean at all that they have PS3's and PS2 is dying, besides... They need to expand, and Wii is still expanding onto the market. It's a good business decision. So yeah, Dragon Quest 9 hit the DS, still FF13 isn't. How many fans were outraged at DQ9 hitting the DS, a damn lot that is for sure. Same with Parasite Eve 3 been on a mobile, bloody stupid. I'm all for Wii RPGs but you have to look at the deeper picture, apart from us Nintendo fans that already bought Gamecubes, the rest of the Wii owners are casual gamers. So that would make even less people playing it if you think about it.So... DQ9 on DS now is stupid? funny. What about the rest of PS2 owners back then? they were buying PES, movie tie-ins and crap... they were so hardcore. There's no such thing as a casual platform; and if there was one last gen... it was PS2; comes with reaching a bigger market and demographic. Aparently still had space for a lot of RPG's... Hell, I'll go further, I go into every forum to see lamers speaking of how FFX rocked, FFX is an entry FF aimed at teens, and the only chance of them remembering it as "awesome" is because they didn't really play many RPG's before that. Because most likely they were not hardcore, making FFX the bridge game for non-gamers (and FF7 before that on other generation). So yeah, you can ignore me or whatever, but like I said, don't get your hopes up, I might be wrong, but at this moment in time, There's no proof that there are any coming or not and if you was a fan of Atlus, you'd already have other systems to play their games. If not, then that's tough luck.We ain't ignoring you, don't conclude your speech as if we're afraid "oh you don't need to answer I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am". I can accept the rest "don't get your hopes up, I might be wrong" though. As for that there's no problem, I'm not getting my hopes up for annanounced games, I never do, but I'm raising awareness. There's also no proof they're going for PS3 though, even if it might And if anything... Persona 4 shows they're stalling in order to give such jump. What we're saying here though... Is that they don't have to make a jump, just a transition for Wii.
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 The SMT game on PSP ended up been a remake/port of the original Devil Summoner on the Saturn. Hell I play tonnes of RPGs and I'd say FFX is a good game, nothing wrong with that. It might not be as hardcore as the SMT series, but does it really have to be to be good? I wonder if DQ9 will be as good as the other games or has highly rated by fans. It will sell no doubt, why? Because fans will buy it. I know I'd buy a new Persona game, even if it came out on DS because I am a fan of the series, it's just how it is. I'll be buying DQ9 too, because I am a RPG nut. 3rd parties are selling, but have you seen the games that are at the top of the charts all the time. You hardly ever see many proper full on games that stay in the charts. It's mainly mini games or trainings. The big ones vanish after a few weeks, while the casual ones stay. "oh you don't need to answer I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am". If that was about me, all I was doing was stating facts of how there's no proof of one coming so don't get hopes up. I don't see myself has awesome above other people. I'm just a big gamer like a few others here. At the end of it all, it's just how developers and publishers work, just look at Disgaea 3 on PS3, didn't stop Nippon sticking it on that system, even after the slack people gave it (mainly people who don't understand how damn awesome Nippon games are) Atleast you understand that I have no problem with the games coming to Wii or not, it's just about if they actually appear, many people would love to shout out insults
Calza Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 Yeah I didn't understand that FFX comment either, especially since its easily better than all of the GC's RPG offerings. It's funny that you would mention DD9 Domstercool, I was thinking about that earlier on today. The DS is probably going to become one of the best systems for RPG's if not the best imo but you have to wonder if the Wii will ever reach the same heights.
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 I think it will do better than the GameCube, but as an RPG system? I still think it won't touch the DS or even the PS2, that system has had loads. I still have so many to play I love the genre, it's my fave and I'd love to see loads of RPGs everywhere. I'm buying Baroque when it hits here.
Hero-of-Time Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 I think it will do better than the GameCube, but as an RPG system? I still think it won't touch the DS or even the PS2, that system has had loads. I still have so many to play I love the genre, it's my fave and I'd love to see loads of RPGs everywhere. I'm buying Baroque when it hits here. PS2 or Wii version? I love RPGs its easily my favourite genre, so much so I imported a US PS2 just to play Tales of Abyss and a few of the Shining games. For me the PSOne and PS2 have been the best machines for RPGs and I dont see them getting beat anytime soon as the current gen of consoles are a bit thin when it comes to roleplaying games. There are so many on the PS1/2 platforms that I didnt get to play, makes me wish I never sold my PS2
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 While I do buy bucket loads of them on the PS2 ( still got some to get.) I'll be getting the Wii version, more power system than the PS2, so usually means will run better... usually (same as I use to buy multiformat Xbox games over PS2 ones because of the same thing.) Plus my Wii needs RPG action.
pedrocasilva Posted June 29, 2008 Author Posted June 29, 2008 The SMT game on PSP ended up been a remake/port of the original Devil Summoner on the Saturn.No, that was not a Persona. They announced a persona as you can see.Hell I play tonnes of RPGs and I'd say FFX is a good game, nothing wrong with that. It might not be as hardcore as the SMT series, but does it really have to be to be good?Not a matter of being hardcore in gaming dificulty at all, has to do with the argument... It's aimed at kids, not a bad game sure, but if I do a top 20 list of RPG's I played in the last 5 years... it won't even get in. It's not saying "it's not bad" it's seeing people saying "hell, make this game more like FFX" regarding any other RPG, and I'm like... "please... don't..." I don't think it deserves the praise it gets, but it defined PS2 RPG's for the good and for the worse. Wii needs such too, but there's not lack of market. I wonder if DQ9 will be as good as the other games or has highly rated by fans. It will sell no doubt, why? Because fans will buy it. I know I'd buy a new Persona game, even if it came out on DS because I am a fan of the series, it's just how it is. I'll be buying DQ9 too, because I am a RPG nut.Why will it be worse though? Best Dragon Quest is still regarded as being DQV, best FF for me is FF6... Might be worse, sure... but I think that's independent of the platform.3rd parties are selling, but have you seen the games that are at the top of the charts all the time. You hardly ever see many proper full on games that stay in the charts. It's mainly mini games or trainings. The big ones vanish after a few weeks, while the casual ones stay.Same as PES stays selling on PS2 throughout the whole year? :P Oh noes, the casuals. Seriously though, casual titles have other lifespan, in any system. buzz didn't sell 1 million on the first day, it kept building upon that, as media and ads also last more time. the result is sales being extended (having legs) for a long period of time. This is proved to not work with "gamer games" because after the first week it looses most of it's effect; they have a faster throughput, but die faster; in any system actually. On the Wii though, third party's can only sell what they pull out right? Atlus won't sell Persona if they don't release it on it. If all they're doing is party crap, they'll sell more of that. Still, look at Capcom, REUC and RE4Wii weren't even advertised. If that was about me, all I was doing was stating facts of how there's no proof of one coming so don't get hopes up. I don't see myself has awesome above other people. I'm just a big gamer like a few others here.Right.At the end of it all, it's just how developers and publishers work, just look at Disgaea 3 on PS3, didn't stop Nippon sticking it on that system, even after the slack people gave it (mainly people who don't understand how damn awesome Nippon games are)And sales were bad compared with what they were on average, on PS2. Those guys didn't even waste that much money though, only in new dev kits and such as their game technically could run on PS2. But when that happens like that, I mean... I think it's a disservice to their consumer, their job is not selling consoles and if anything they're prejudiced by it. I don't think it was intensional though, they just jumped the gun as in "PS2 is going to be dead in a few months time, time to branch into PS3 who'll lead", and then it takes off slower than they wanted. PS2 is still dying though, but perhaps a PSP and PS2 release (or even with Wii too) on the cheap would be more intelligent for them. Atleast you understand that I have no problem with the games coming to Wii or not, it's just about if they actually appear, many people would love to shout out insults fair enough. Yeah I didn't understand that FFX comment either, especially since its easily better than all of the GC's RPG offerings.Ohhhh, I disagree with all my might. Baten Kaitos Origins is so much better, and better than most last gen RPG's... the fact that it felt like a Chrono Cross sequel to me is orgasmic, not a RPG aimed at teens at all, it's mature has twists, good storyline... awesome in all accounts. And even ToS if we go by battle system preference (and the argument is similar anyway, so bleh), but yes that one is discussable. but BKO... let's FFX eating sand. And on PS2? I must have a top 50 before FFX comes to mind. Not a bad game but... overated like hell, it's a entry point RPG, with a public aim that doesn't fit me. I've heard girls who aren't gamers saying they love it, which says a lot about the plotline in there. Still and as I said.. it defined PS2 RPG's, even if I think it's not that good, Square can release such games here, even if they're average for my standards, chances are they'll bring more third party's into it which will already make it worth it. It's funny that you would mention DD9 Domstercool, I was thinking about that earlier on today. The DS is probably going to become one of the best systems for RPG's if not the best imo but you have to wonder if the Wii will ever reach the same heights.We'd have to wonder in 2004 when DS launched as well, time will tell, advocating for titles like this is the way to go though, and they didn't get the success they deserved on PS2.
darksnowman Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 So many long posts in here about a game series I've never played, it makes me feel out of my depth just reading some of it. In my opinion, I'd maybe even prefer some Persona action on the DS rather than on the Wii. Why? Simply because Atlus rock the DS.
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 Well it is true that Buzz do sell alot on the PS2, there's no denying that, but none casual games do extremely well. Just look at stuff like Gran Turismo series, Metal Gear Solid, Devil May Cry, stuff you wouldn't really link with casuals still go get millions in sales, hell even the RPGs like DQ8 and Xenosaga got over 1 mil. Apart from Nintendo, the other stuff doesn't really hit that high sales unless it's one of the casual games. You could say that's down to no good software, but still the point is that is what is showing up on the charts and maybe it's scaring away those publishers, who knows.
Hellfire Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 Thing is, the definition of casual now has changed to party games and brain trainings, specially because MGS and GT games all are incredibly popular to the mass market, which was defined as the casual market not too long ago. Who the fuck cares. Also, recent RPG systems: DS and PS2. The one in line with sales, power and market penetration right now is Wii. Let's not forget that just like with DS, devs were caught with their pants down, most likely this crapfest of 3rd party games and 3rd parties selling poorly will fade. These reasons are more than enough to see lots of games like RPGs finding a home in Wii. Honestly, just as long as they find a home in a console I have and in the format that makes them better (i.e. controller), I'm cool.
pedrocasilva Posted June 29, 2008 Author Posted June 29, 2008 Havent actually played any of the personas or SMT games because I have way too many RPGS still yet to be completed to my satisfaction, and if you buy one SMT, you really need to buy them all to get the whole story. Ugh too many games to complete now, most of them massive.You don't, after all SMT1 and 2 never came out of Japan. They're separate games, buy without fear if that's what stopping you.Well it is true that Buzz do sell alot on the PS2, there's no denying that, but none casual games do extremely well. Just look at stuff like Gran Turismo series, Metal Gear Solid, Devil May Cry, stuff you wouldn't really link with casuals still go get millions in sales, hell even the RPGs like DQ8 and Xenosaga got over 1 mil.Actually, I would. Gran Turismo is a very casual friendly game, after all it's a extension of something you use in real life with objects of desire that everyone wants to use, it sells to the hardcores, sure, but it wouldn't sell 10 million based on just that. A lot of people aren't gamers and bought PS2's just for that, Metal gear Solid can be regarded as a interactive movie and is a pretty short game, sure it has difficulty options and extra value, but most of the purchasers won't replay it and is accessible for pretty much everyone, Devil May Cry is simply a action game who screams "I'm so badass"... Those... are games for the masses, and they sold accordingly... And the masses are casuals. Only titles there who get's away is DQ8 and Xenosaga; that in DQ8's case, is as powerful as FF in Japan, meaning 2 million out of the box. as for Xenosaga, yes, they've build the brand. Apart from Nintendo, the other stuff doesn't really hit that high sales unless it's one of the casual games. You could say that's down to no good software, but still the point is that is what is showing up on the charts and maybe it's scaring away those publishers, who knows.Fair enough, but point is they have no reason to. Besides I'd say they've been pretty dumb so far, let's look at stuff like racers... racers have mass appeal, look for "casual wii gamers" and a lot of them will be starved for realistic games, they don't like cartoony approaches, and they like, sports, racing and action titles in the sense that Nintendo isn't. So why don't they step up? it's either because "nintendo is too strong so we won't make a zelda clone" or because "there's no market for that"... yes there is, quite clear actually. This said... RE4 and REUC sold pretty well to those same masses without advertising. And more games can too, it's only part of the casual falacy, Nintendo is too strong... but somehow "masses" don't even know the difference, they get influenced by commercials, buzz word of mouth though as well as developers giving them the titles they want. And those are not party games at this point. Besides most casual games don't sell that hot. I remember DogZ from Ubi selling like... 30.000? it was something abysmal of that order, and most don't they that hot, with the exception being Carnival Games. More than trying to separate demographics, developers have to realize that casual gamers always existed (I recall PSone being called casual, when Saturn had a lower install base and sold more multiplatform titles; all that changed with FF7), and are part of why their products were so successful in the first place, as well as they're the only way of the market to start growing. You had a RPG bloom with FF7 because those guys had never played a RPG, so it caused a fever that called a lot of people, same for pokémon on portables... similarly FFX was PS2's FF7... but for that, more than the title and flashy name... they need to invest in the market leader; otherwise they're just catering the same users as ever on secondary consoles who are composed "solely" of hardcores, not miniparty games, as that bubble is bound to burst eventually, real games aimed at the masses, as they already are. Industry has been "dumbed down" in the sense casual games are known for, for years, I remember being unlikely to ever finish a videogame. Today? I just have to stick around for enough time, with most X360 shooters single player campaign taking under 5 hours to pass. But... that's hardcore now? right. (it isn't) They're simply covering themselves and trying to be elitist towards such gamers, but are forgetting their games are accessible enough for a lot of casuals, and in fact striven for by the masses. (action games are a mass market favorite) and... they also started from there anyway. I still remember buying Robocop for brick GB because I knew the brand from "real world"... and it sucked yet, there were games in there with quality enough to affiliate me with gaming, I can tell you... I wouldn't be playing today if all I played was that tramp. PS2 sold movie tie-ins, Wii sells movie tie-ins and mass market games as well as garbage (as PS2 did) see where I'm heading? the other two don't. Closed environments, specially X360; and that in time means less market, in contrast the titles that are selling being able to do just fine with such (wii) public and a lot of them are something Wii public would purchase at this point, be it let's-hit-people-in-the-street simulators, realistic racing games or even FPS's. On a last sentence... DS wasn't that hardcore too, yet, now they're flocking there. Money talks, and that's a huge ass market there. Enough to rob Dragon Quest 9 from any "I'm so hardcore it hurts" platform. Mass market.
Domstercool Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 I can't see that DMC was for the masses, the outskin might of been, but the developers even said that DMC 1 and 3 were made for hardcore players in mind, the difficulty shows this as well. It's the reason why 2 was slapped because they didn't carter for the market that bought the first one. You do have some good points about how the casual view has changed though, this also brought along with the Wii as well. Didn't the Saturn have problems with selling games? Hence why Tomb Raider, Wipeout and such ended up moving on the PSX system? Enough typing for now anyway, it's time to play some games that i have right now.
pedrocasilva Posted June 30, 2008 Author Posted June 30, 2008 I can't see that DMC was for the masses, the outskin might of been, but the developers even said that DMC 1 and 3 were made for hardcore players in mind, the difficulty shows this as well. It's the reason why 2 was slapped because they didn't carter for the market that bought the first one.I disagree, sure they aren't casual games, but the masses ate them up. It's not a matter of knowing if them all finished the game (and this said, they could, teens mostly) but it's a game with mass appeal, if anything because "it's so badass". (and I like that actually, as do a lot of people) Also think with me, if it was solely a hardcore game... why advertising it on TV? Or let's look at DMC4 cutscenes, they use moves that are not even in the game and are just (again) badass and too catered to the art of show-off, of course it's aimed at masses. You do have some good points about how the casual view has changed though, this also brought along with the Wii as well.In a way, it's a return to some years ago. NES was casual as hell in it's own way (low ammount of key's, accessibility, for the time) and games like Pacman were designed with women in mind, as well as Tetris... Tetris was a casual game and helped sell GB's. And they were very simple. In a way we made games easier to drive continued interest, but worsened the learning curve a great deal. In a way... Wii could be both, easy "current"games to drive interest (and I mean stuff like the last tomb raiders who were pretty short) wilst having a lower learning curve. providing it works though, could be a utopia. Didn't the Saturn have problems with selling games? Hence why Tomb Raider, Wipeout and such ended up moving on the PSX system?I was talking about Japan, Saturn pretty much arrived dead in US, and severely debilited to Europe, although it actually leaded initially in countries like Portugal. But that's a micro-market. Yes, Saturn lost those franchises due to that early on, but in Japan they were holding their own, stuff like Segata Sanshirou (translated into "you must play sega saturn") goal was precisely that, the guy training in the woods spanking a saturn controller and carrying it on the back, as in training and honing his skills as well as a lot of gamer centered games being advertised, before FF7 PSone was definetly considered more casual, I remember that being a argument (Saturn leaded here, so we got some waves of that info/arguments) and read it years afterwards too It's all a matter of logic though and seeing what games were selling, before FF7 launched I remember PSone in Japan having a warioware like game, who was actually pretty popular, I don't recall the name though. Enough typing for now anyway, it's time to play some games that i have right now.Sure, good luck on those. *looks at the pile of RPG's waiting to be played* I ought to do that one of these days too.
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