No HD? Oh well...

[Pestneb]

people saying games on the 360 will look great on regular tv's as well, the review posted said there wasn't really a noticeable difference.

looking at RE4 I imagine an 800 Mhz GPU would be adequate for next gen (ignoring HDTV). the only way to justify anything significantly faster would be HDTV, and next gen where does it go then? 2160p?

I see nothing with 480i for tv. I can appreciate perhaps having a 40+" screen with 1080p for films, but in a game the graphics don't matter that much. the biggest screen I'll be getting in the foreseeable future would be a 42" screen, and it more than like won't be 720/1080, I've seen SD tv images on HD tv screens, not impressed, not as in there's no improvement, thats a no brainer, but because the image looked worse.

HDTV just isn't standard yet. if I was in America the situation may well be different

[mike-zim]

You are the most naïve person in the world.

 

Have you even used Xbox live?

 

x-box live is at its highest at the moment. just as the next jen consoles are coming out. but at its launch can you honestly tell me that it was as popular as it is now? i think not. it was before its time. i am not slating online play. i love it. but i love it now not when the x-box was released.

 

i havent tried x-box live to anwer your question.

[Jamba]

Hang on a sec... please tell me that we will be covering motive in this rather frantic episode of te HD generation arguement?

 

Isn't it likely that Sony said somewhere along the lines that they wanted to do HD first? This is likely to do with the fact that if they sell lots of PS3s they will also sell lots of the HD TVs that they make. TVs and DVD players are the fastest shrinking section of Sony's market, so this would explain a lot.

 

So Microsoft hear what Sony are doing and suddenly they are going to have HD (of sorts) too! Supprise! No, not really. It's just Sony/Microsoft one-up-manship.

[Shaze_Nab]

OK I take vack my arguement about that I suppose... But then again charging £90 for an unfinished version of windows is a bit unfair, compared to adding £10 to an N64 in Germany...

[system_error]

If you render a picture in HD (1024x720) and use 2xAA it fits in the eDRAM buffer of a certain console and if you then output it to a HD TV it looks brilliant. However on a normal TV the same picture is downsampled to 640x480 by the TV or the console - that means the AA is nearly wasted and that makes it look like a current-gen game.

 

BUT if you only develop for a SDTV (480p or something) you can do 640x480 with 2xAA you save power (which can be used for more polygons, physics, effects, ...) and you get a much better SDTV picture than the "other" console has. Of course HDTV will look sharper but on a SDTV the Revolution is far superior. Even if the Revolution is weaker than the other console their SDTV picture output is better because it was developed for it.

It is all a matter of choice and to be honest if Nintendos promise is true that they want to cut developing costs I am on board - HDTV is out of my range because I rather eat at a restaurant a few weeks than buying a 1500€ HD TV. Oh and before I forget you also need the right HD TV set because some only support 1080 and then the picture has to be blown up.

[mike-zim]

If you render a picture in HD (1024x720) and use 2xAA it fits in the eDRAM buffer of a certain console and if you then output it to a HD TV it looks brilliant. However on a normal TV the same picture is downsampled to 640x480 by the TV or the console - that means the AA is nearly wasted and that makes it look like a current-gen game.

 

BUT if you only develop for a SDTV (480p or something) you can do 640x480 with 2xAA you save power (which can be used for more polygons, physics, effects, ...) and you get a much better SDTV picture than the "other" console has. Of course HDTV will look sharper but on a SDTV the Revolution is far superior. Even if the Revolution is weaker than the other console their SDTV picture output is better because it was developed for it.

It is all a matter of choice and to be honest if Nintendos promise is true that they want to cut developing costs I am on board - HDTV is out of my range because I rather eat at a restaurant a few weeks than buying a 1500€ HD TV. Oh and before I forget you also need the right HD TV set because some only support 1080 and then the picture has to be blown up.

 

 

that is very informative thank you. if it is right then ofcourse nintendo have taken the right path no doubt about it.

[Innovance]

Hang on a sec... please tell me that we will be covering motive in this rather frantic episode of te HD generation arguement?

 

Isn't it likely that Sony said somewhere along the lines that they wanted to do HD first? This is likely to do with the fact that if they sell lots of PS3s they will also sell lots of the HD TVs that they make. TVs and DVD players are the fastest shrinking section of Sony's market, so this would explain a lot.

 

So Microsoft hear what Sony are doing and suddenly they are going to have HD (of sorts) too! Supprise! No, not really. It's just Sony/Microsoft one-up-manship.

 

To expand on your point, Its about more than HDTVs for sony. They more than likely have the next gen format in blu-ray. So they are going to get PAID if blu-ray reaches popularity. On top of that the move to HD gives them the oppertunity to resell all their IP on a new format. You have to remember sony is a content maker as well, Blu-ray gives them another chance to resell their popular films all over again.

 

Microsofts motives are really unclear to me. If anyone knows why they are pushing HD so hard id like to hear it.

[Rolf]

@Rolf... The reason we play consoles is so we don't have to bother with updating our system. I mean it's fine and dandy on the PC, but on a console you should be able to get the fullest out of the system.

There are a lot of parts that pull together to create a Personal Computer. A console is fairly useless without a TV.

 

For now, anyway.

 

While I agree with you, and I too favour consoles because they're ready out of the box, TV's are evolving along with consoles. You don't have to switch to HD this coming generation, but you will eventually. Most of us are here on RE because we're excited about the direction Nintendo is taking gaming - away from standard visual upgrades and focusing on different aspects of the medium.

 

Both the 360 and PS3, on a standard TV, will still produce games that look better than anything this generation has to offer. HD will be the standard eventually - If you want to experience the full benefit of the coming generations' visuals, upgrade now. If not, wait a while. TV's come part and parcel with consoles - and now they are evolving, gaming's moving with them. Logically.

 

Sooner or later, HD will get you.

[Innovance]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

 

Wow. I really dont get how you can call me a fanboy for supporting no HD. Outside of it makes thigns better what other gains are there to HD?? With HD you havent improved the graphics you only improved the resolution and made things clearer. Its a clear visual improvement but comes at a price. ive seen HD as i use a pc and play game on it.

 

The main negative point that the starter of this thread is addressing, is if you view something at a different resolution than its intended for it looks worse. This means that unless developers put in more work (spend more money) people playing 360 for the most part are going to end up with worse looking games. The real issue with that is the majority of game players still only have SDTVs. Regardless of the uptake rate of HDTVs, MS have for the most part screwed over the SD portion of their userbase.

 

Now the downside to nintendos decision is that for those who buy HDTVs rev games are likely going to look worse on those too.

 

I guess nintendo should leave the choice up to developers, BUT the problem with that is that eventually again HD will become standard through peer pressure amongst developers. That is likely to occur at a higher rate than HD uptake again screwing the majority consumer.

 

So my point is given those and other negatives i support nintendos decision because at this moment in time HD penetration is not high enough to assume that the majority of your userbase will have HDTVs. Implementing HD at this moment in time will also be a waste of money not in terms of hardware but in terms of software development and value for money for the AVERAGE consumer.

 

That said nintendo could implement HD as there is a far more widespread HD device in peoples homes, PC monitors which they have already confirmed it will connect too, only problem with that is sound. So why dont nintendo do it that way?

 

BTW i dont necessarily support sony's push for HD, But i understand it and i agree that THEY NEED it. Its not a consumer driven decision for sony, the fact that they are rumoured to lose $100 on every PS3 should tell you that its more than that. They are desperate for HD to take off, and it is not for the benefit of gamers.

 

Ive presented my arguments, I dont think those are the typical fanboy type arguments you are implying (im not a fanboy by the way, i like games in general, just nintendo makes most of my favourite) now you need to give me a more solid argument as to why nintendo is wrong to not implement HD, and your current argument of 'HD makes things better' is an example of another fanboy type argument

[mike-zim]

@ Innovance. well said i think that conveys exactly what i think on the situation. the only difference is that i am a 100% genuine fanboy. i accept it and am happy.

[Innovance]

Both the 360 and PS3, on a standard TV, will still produce games that look better than anything this generation has to offer. HD will be the standard eventually - If you want to experience the full benefit of the coming generations' visuals, upgrade now. If not, wait a while. TV's come part and parcel with consoles - and now they are evolving, gaming's moving with them. Logically.

 

I agree, but that is only if the developer takes the time to make the game look good on a SDTV as well as a HDTV. I just hope that, 'you need a HDTV to see the graphical improvement' doesnt become a common statement this gen.

 

The problem then becomes to make it look good both on HDTV and SDTV is going to cost more money. Judging by NBA2k6 downsampling to SD isnt going to work very well.

 

Its the same on PCs i was playing need for speed most wanted demo and decided to experiment with the resolution. The lower i went the worse it looked. But it wasnt cos the graphics were getting worse but because i wasnt at the right resolution, and my distance from the monitor remained the same. As i increased the resolution it improved, its easy to think the graphics were getting better but it was only the resolution that was changing.

 

kinda like adjusting the size of a video in media player. If i put it to full screen and move back it looks better (the further away i go) because the distortion of the increased size is less noticable. But this in my opinion defeats the purpose of increasing the size, cos my motive in increasing the size was to make it easier to see (clearer) at my current distance.

 

Now that i think about it the reviewers should have tried moving further / closer to the screen. To see how that affected the visual quality (cos the graphics werent changing). Eventually they would prolly have reached a distance where it looked good again, without the need for HDTV. This kinda messes up my previous arguments a lil, but also presents a semi-solution (not a good one mind) for SDTVs HDTVs sampling issues. the problem is its not really obvious (adjusting you distance) unless you think about it nor is it convenient.

 

Anyway this really puts the focus of the HD issue on developer/consumer/possibly hardware (performance not power) costs for me.

[Pestneb]

you know tbh I thought nintendo were initially going to support upto 720p.

anyway, off that, I think launch titles for the 360 will suck for SD, if enough SD owners purchase 360 then mid terms games may also have a setting to switch down to 480 resolution.

then at the end of the generation it will probably have higher requirements (like GC games that only supported 60Hz in Pal regions)

 

basically games will get too big near the end of the 360's life to support multiple resolutions, and launch titles will be too rushed to bother with SD support.

of course they may just be too lazy/not see the need to include SD support in mid gen, so we may see a lack of visual quality in all/the majority of 360 games. only time will tell.

[NeoBlizz]

Kameo on a HDTV (SDTV upscaled + HDTV) on same LCDscreen.

 

http://members.chello.se/wallmark/kside.jpg

 

HDTV is more clear, but its not a MAJOR diffrence (like everyone have said it should be).

[Kurtle Squad]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

 

How is not having HD support shameful?!!? HD TV's wont be fully fledged until next gaming generation anyway.

 

And how is Nintendo ripping people off exactly?!? Over priced memory cards I agree (get a GAME one, they are HUGE and don't wipe themselves like most 3rd party ones), but the rest is GREAT!!!

And graphics aren't everything, so there's no point worrying about HD. Ever heard of Metroid Prime?...That had SO much atmosphere, it didn't need GREAT graphics, though they are really good. The Revo has something called gameplay over the competition also.

[Jwizzman]

do people seriously care for hdtv? there's hardly that many people who own this kind of tv, it's 100% 1 gen too early so I don't care the least bit that Nintendo doesn't support it

[Raven]

@Innovance

One key term which stood out in your post was "Average Consumer". this made me chuckle. not because it was funny, more than likely its because im insane.

the average consumer is the audience that nintendo generally aim for.

this (i could well be wrong on this) is one of the reasons that the revolution was going to be cheaper than the other systems.

 

 

Those images are quite interesting. it makes me wonder what kind of definition all of the Xbox360 trailers were being played at. i saw a Kameo trailer, thought it looked nice... but now im really starting to wonder.

perfect dark zero shouldnt be much different... but there were a few games which seemed to have nice 'crisp' graphics.

hmm. maybe trailers in the future should have attached to them "Shown in SDTV" or whatever. because this could be quite misleading!!!!

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Oh yeah, HD makes games like Counter-Strike and World of Warcraft THAT much better. I dont believe 50% of americans have HD in their homes, maybe not even 25%.

[MikeMania]

prices are going down, but that doesn't change the fact that no one i know is bothering to get one. If you have a perfectly fine trinitron Television set.

 

There are so many different formats to technology that are revealed almost every year, and quite possibly, HDTV's life span will be short, and probably somthing called ZDFGHTV will replace it in only a few years! Unless HDTV is so significant and more effecient than current generation sets, which i don't think it is, there is no reason for it to be the next standard. (alothugh i have read somewhere the gov wants us to switch to HD by year 2009 or something... i'm not sure)

[Pestneb]

prices are going down, but that doesn't change the fact that no one i know is bothering to get one. If you have a perfectly fine trinitron Television set.

 

There are so many different formats to technology that are revealed almost every year, and quite possibly, HDTV's life span will be short, and probably somthing called ZDFGHTV will replace it in only a few years! Unless HDTV is so significant and more effecient than current generation sets, which i don't think it is, there is no reason for it to be the next standard. (alothugh i have read somewhere the gov wants us to switch to HD by year 2009 or something... i'm not sure)

 

The reason HDTV is being pushed is for larger sets. if you have a 14 inch screen at 480i (what our sets are roughly now) thats fine, but if you have a 28 inch screen at the same resolution, each pixel will be twice as big as that on the 14 inch screen.

go upto 56 inch screens, and they are now four times as big.

 

hence the move to hi definition. its basically for larger sets.

seeing as in the UK 4:3 screens are still around, I think its unlikely we'll have HD anytime soon. its definitely not going to be a large benefit in Europe, apart from the idiots who will see the HD quality shining through their SD sets.

 

Out of interest, which gen of video game consoles first supported the widescreen standard in most games? was it N64/playstation, or the current generation?

[Charlie]

How long is it until you have to have a HD TV to play 360 games? Many new GC games require a 60hz TV, many people here don't have one of those, let alone a HD TV.

[Innovance]

Kameo on a HDTV (SDTV upscaled + HDTV) on same LCDscreen.

 

http://members.chello.se/wallmark/kside.jpg

 

HDTV is more clear, but its not a MAJOR diffrence (like everyone have said it should be).

 

Thats the point HD isnt a graphical improvement its a resolution improvement. The thing is you need to view the game at the appropriate resolution to see the graphical improvements. The graphical improvements are still present at SD level but they are harder to see due to viewing the game at the incorrect resolution.

 

Think resizing videos in media players

[DCK]

Saying "I won't get a HDTV" is selfish. So you have a good TV already, or you can't afford one. So that means you shouldn't care about HDTV because YOU won't have it, other people who put their money together for some quality resolutions don't matter. HDTV is becoming more accesible over time and there will be a time, like it or not, that you'll have a HDTV because it's the standard. It could be in ten years, or it could be in two years, but either way, when you get your old dusty Revolution out for a spin, it'll just be a shame to see the archaic 640x480 resolution.

 

About the graphical improvements - those who haven't seen the difference, stop talking. The difference between 480p and 720p is big. Even in Resident Evil 4 you see raw strips of pixels simply because the resolution is not good enough to match up to its graphical quality, no matter how much full-scene anti aliasing they've done on it. 1280x768 or 1920x1080 does so much better in displaying good graphics.

 

I have a feeling that Nintendo is missing an opportunity here. I mean, HD is better than no HD right?

[Pit-Jr]

Im all for the system that can wring the most out of my SD TV, which in this case seems to be Nintendo. Maybe later down the road i can afford an HDTV. By waiting a year or two, the price of the 360 and hopefully HDTV will have come down dramatically to the point where i can afford to own both.

 

Another point, since Nintendo is positioning Rev as a second console, alot of them will wind up attached to a second TV. Sure alot of ppl own HDTV now, but how many families have an HDTV in EVERY room? Im guessing, not many at all.

 

EDIT- Im also a load-time whore, from what ive gathered, Nintendo will once again have the shortest load times due to its lack of HD support. Not a big deal to some, but huge to me.

[DCK]

Which is the second console? The 360 or the Rev?

 

The Revolution seems more a family console to me.

[MunKy]

Im also a load-time whore, from what ive gathered, Nintendo will once again have the shortest load times due to its lack of HD support. Not a big deal to some, but huge to me.

 

Im with you on that, I hate loading times, which is another reason why I dont buy other consoles. I wish there was a disk/cartridge hybrid so there would be no loading times. If I wanna make a cuppa or have a piss I'll pause the game not wait three hours to open a door.