The Lisbon Treaty

[Jonnas]

Referendums != Democracy

 

Ok, maybe I chose the wrong words. But the point still stands.

[stev2604]

Yeah there were way more "Yes" signs here.

 

It makes it even worse when every anti EU politician in Europe goes to Ireland to campaign, there was so much No signs around you couldn't even see the sun.

 

You can't really say that based on news reports.

[The fish]

I thought that Scotland was famous for its sheep, not Ireland.

 

It's Wales, you fool, Wales!

 

Well, Wales and New Zealand...

[Jimbob]

What i've been reading in the paper and online about this is that other EU leaders including President Sarkozy of France are urging the other EU countries to ratify the treaty and to not let the Irish No Vote become a crisis. I knew it would be attempted to continue with it with the No vote from my earlier post, but at least some other leaders in the EU say the treaty is finished and done for.

 

Lets hope the most obvious plan to mod the treaty and force Ireland to re-vote on it doesn't occur because i hope Ireland keep saying No to it.

[Shino]

I've saw a political analyst on TV saying the treaty is now juridically dead, the countries left to rectify it don't even need to do it.

 

But I would prefer they would find some way of going forward with it and if necessary leave Ireland out.

[GigaPlay]

I'd be interested to know how many people voted no because

 

1) They read and understood the treaty and had specific issues with the document in its current form

2) They don't like the idea of the European Union or Europe in general and were voting against Europe rather than the treaty

3) The main political parties wanted it to pass and they wanted to stick it to the politicians or use it as a vote to show displeasure with the government

4) They didn't understand the treaty and were not going to vote for somethign that hadn't been explained in terms they could understand

and

5) Were scared off voting yes by posters showing that under the treaty all children would be forcebly microchipped or because they were told by a singing turkey that it would take their rights away.

1) Not all that many, of course I very much doubt many yes voters even understood it either.

2) Not too many I'd assume, people here seem generally pro-Europe in my experience. Enough to help the Yes vote along a bit too.

3) No idea. Probably the same amount who voted Yes just to spite Libertas/The 'No' campaign

4) Lots. Of course there would have been 'Yes' votes that simply put the trust in what the politicians said.

5) No idea, probably the same amount who were scared off voting 'no' because Europe would beat them up/leave them behind and Sinn Féin would come and eat their children.

 

On the note about the posters/signs, there was about 7 Yes poster for every No poster. If people were going to vote simply on which they saw more often, Yes would have won easily. Didn't help though that the Yes posters just said "Yes" and "Good for" again and again.

[Mokong]

But I would prefer they would find some way of going forward with it and if necessary leave Ireland out.

 

Just to prove the EU wants to be more Imperialistic than Democratic?

 

Although I would have thought they showed that already by ignoring the people of 2 nations in 2005 and just trying to find a way to bring in the same changes but through a method that allows them to deny the public a chance to vote, but they still had a small problem with Irelands constitution so they come up with "self-amending" clauses so if they could get Ireland to somehow vote yes they can guarantee they won't be able to vote again in future changes just like everyone else.

 

And again on the subject of sheep and posters, if there was to be any sheepish voting it would have been on the yes side. As has been said more of the parties campaigned for a yes vote and had way more posters than the no vote side. Before the vote my worry as a no supporter was that too many people would vote just based on which party they usually follow in general elections and/or which posters they saw more of. In many places I drove through one weekend between Waterford and Dublin a No poster was a rare thing to see.

 

I am not "anti-Eu", I am fully aware of the benifits being a member of the EU has provided Ireland, and I understand they want to find ways to make it work better, but trying to forcefully change the EU into a Federal State/United States of Europe/European Empire/Soviet Union Mark 2 (take your pick), is the wrong way.

[Shino]

If most parties wanted you to vote yes, they might have a good reason. People vote for the most demagogic reasons.

[Mokong]

If most parties wanted you to vote yes, they might have a good reason. People vote for the most demagogic reasons.

 

i thought the same too, but then i asked why would the opposition side with the government, aren't they meant to oppose them? a friend pointed out that with Lisbon giving more powers to the EU national governments have less responsibility, so when EU does something the people don't like, they can't complain to their government cuz it wasn't them who did it, no point complaining to the people in the EU would made the change since we would have had no hand in electing them. Opposition here were likely thinking in terms of, well if we win the next general election we'd like that lessened responsibility too.

[mcj metroid]

To be fair, I'm not there so I'm not sure, but from the reports I saw on tv, for every Yes sign there was three No signs around.

 

again you wern't here. You call us sheep whereas most political parties told us to vote us and most other countries govenments wanted a yes. How did we follow the crowd? If anything we voted the opposite.

 

It's funny how out of touch governments are to people's genral views isn't it..

 

I've saw a political analyst on TV saying the treaty is now juridically dead, the countries left to rectify it don't even need to do it.

 

But I would prefer they would find some way of going forward with it and if necessary leave Ireland out.

 

am no it's all of us or none of us.

[Shino]

Sheep in the sense as sticking it to the man.

 

But I give up, no argument ever goes anywhere. Have your "victory".

[Ramar]

I'm pretty pleased Ireland voted No. On the principal that our government didn't even give us a bloody chance to consider it. I don't really know what the treaty is about, and the government could well sign us into something that a lot of people disagree with.

[Iun]

People have the right to choose, Shino.

[Shino]

People have the right to choose, Shino.

 

I guess...

 

I just think people don't grasp the importance of what this all means to the union, and have made their choice based on misinformation and alarmist opinions. Things wont stay the same as they were.

[Iun]

One could argue though that the "Yes" lobby are as guilty of scare-mongering.

 

People have the right to choose, sometimes they choose right, sometimes they choose wrong. The important thing is that they have the option.

[Charlie]

Britain's parliamentary approval of the EU Treaty, which received Royal Assent this morning, will be used by Europe's leaders at Brussels summit dinner tonight to push Ireland into holding a second referendum next year.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2157944/EU-Gordon-Brown-praised-for-keeping-Lisbon-Treaty-alive.html

 

They'd better not have another referendum, the country has said no once to it, surely that is enough?