The Lisbon Treaty

[Mokong]

I just wanted to see what the forum here thought about the Lisbon Treaty.

 

The people here from Ireland who are registered to vote, where do you stand, yes or no and why? If your too young to vote do you have an opinion and if you could vote what would you do?

 

To the people here from other countries in the EU, what do you think about the treaty. What do you think of the fact your government is not allowing you to have a vote and taking away your public voice.

 

Ask yourselves, Why? Why are they denying you a vote, what are they afraid of so much they would make a mockery of democracy as they are?

 

I'm especially interested in what people from France and the Netherlands think of it since ye were the ones who put the stop to the EU Constitution back in 2005. This treaty is basically the SAME thing as the EU Constitution but designed in a way that a referendum will not be required in every country (except Ireland). So they are trying to ratify the EU Constitution under a different name even though you rejected and not allowing you to vote again because they know you'll vote no.

 

Whatever country your from, what do you know about the treaty that your government wants to sign without asking you if you think its benificial to your country and people. They have taken away your vote and your voice.

 

Under the Lisbon Treaty (aka EU Constitution) it will eventually lead to a Federal European State (or United States of Europe or more likely a "European EMPIRE), we will no longer be Irish or British or French or Dutch etc. We will become European. We will all see control of our countries handed over to foreign powers. This is not what the EU was set up for, this is not what our countries signed up when we joined.

 

On the 12th of June 2008, Ireland will have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. The ONLY country of the 27 EU members to so. This means our vote, our voice does not just represent our individual people, but our vote and our voice now represents you and the rest of the people of EU countries.

 

If you could vote, what would you do?

 

Me you might be able to guess that I will vote NO.

Below is a video I just put up on Youtube trying explain why I'll vote no in full and how I understand the treaty, despite the low amount of info our government have provided to us. (warning this is a long video weighing in at 29 mins long, so you might want to get a cup of tea first)

 

[gaggle64]

I think a more closely unified European state is the best way forward. So far the EU has proven it is able to operate as a stable council and has been at the forefront of creating and growing national economies east and west. As a British citizen it has become clear to me that Europe is our best way of protecting our economy and securities in the face of an uncertain future and emerging and existing economic super powers, and I'm not convinced we shall loose a great deal of our autonomy in return.

 

Personally, I would vote yes.

[conzer16]

I won't be voting as I'm in New Zealand and there is no provision for a postal vote for people who are overseas for a referendum, strangely enough.

 

But, to be perfectly honest, I would vote no. I don't think Europe should have a treaty that replaces a constitution as I don't think Europe should have a constitution. Ireland's constitution will do me just fine thank you very much.

 

I think that even though all the major political parties in Ireland are canvassing for a yes vote that Ireland will vote no. This will send a powerful message to Europe that just because the governments of the EU think something is good and right for the union that they cannot get away from the fact that this union is founded on democracy and letting the people decide what is right is paramount. A country of 4 million people can show this to the rest of them.

 

 

I don't think a unified European state is the way forward. There are too many dfferences across the continent politically, socially, economically for a super state to be founded.

 

 

IRELAND - VOTE NO

[jayseven]

This is not what the EU was set up for, this is not what our countries signed up when we joined.

Depends on what the definition of 'we' and 'country' is, if you ask me. This is what the EU was set up for -- total economic integration that requires some political melding across borders and between separate countries.

 

The individual countries don't just cease to exist, and still regain a certain degree of control over policies and such. In the long run it's a sensible idea, people just need to ask themselves what is it exactly about being british/irish/english/dutch/french/whatever that makes you proud of being one of them?

 

Slightly playing devil's advocate here, btw.

[The fish]

Vote yes - I personally consider myself English first and European second, but European none the less. I also see it as a foolish move to reject the consolidation of power of what is statistically the world's most economically powerful union. What's more, with our American "friends'" power waning, and Russia becoming increasingly willing to cut off energy supplies to eastern Europe, then a unified Europe is not just strong; it's a necessity.

 

With regards exclusively to the constitution, I am fairly apathetic. It's predominantly the British unwritten constitution, which I see (call me biased if you must) as arguably one of the best in the world. Writing it would secure it, but isn't essential. However, with regards to the idea of the European Union, I am entirely in favour.

 

I should also point out that on the continent, with the obvious exception of Switzerland, the union is almost universally favoured. Although it's massively bureaucratic, that's to be expected in something of it's size, and, when people actually let it do it's "thing", it's proved to be too effective. The EU came along, fixed the massively disorganised and broken farming and farm produce trade systems in place, by removing taxes, giving financial intensives, sticking back together the tiny, separated, continental farms, and getting farmers to grow what will grow well in there area. Unfortunately, they galvanised what is some of the best farming land in the world, and ended up with the infamous food mountains and milk/wine lakes.

 

The EU has proved it's competence to me. All that's needed now is for the European people (in this case, the Irish) to prove their political sense. By the way, if you vote against this because you want to preserve your nationality, then I'm sorry, but in my eyes, your a colossal moron. You can still call yourself whatever the hell you like, and, personally, I see someone from California as a Californian. If the EU unites, I'll see someone from Ireland as Irish, someone from Germany as German, and someone from Luton as a chav.

 

In a single line: Europe needs to stand together, or fall divided.

 

Under the Lisbon Treaty (aka EU Constitution) it will eventually lead to a Federal European State (or United States of Europe or more likely a "European EMPIRE), we will no longer be Irish or British or French or Dutch etc. We will become European. We will all see control of our countries handed over to foreign powers. This is not what the EU was set up for, this is not what our countries signed up when we joined.

 

I'm sorry, but what are you basing that on? I've read nothing that isn't in the Daily Mail to suggest this. The only other union of this size retains most of it's autonomy, and each part has it's one laws and regulations (I'm talking about the USA...) That statement is 100% nationalistic propaganda. The fact you've mixed it with other, true statements makes it appear true to those who don't know much about this, so all you're doing here is purposefully misleading people.

[Ramar]

and someone from Luton as a chav.

 

Well screw you fish!!

[The fish]

Well screw you fish!!

 

Haha, sorry! I'm joking - I live in Harpenden, and one of my best friends is a Lutonian. Hell, I was born in the L&D, I am a Lutonian!

[Iun]

Europe as a united sovereign state can get stuffed. Our economies are not all precisely compatible, nor are all of our ways of life.

[Indigo]

In principle I don't object to a strong regional supranational institution such as the EU. What I do object to however is the lack of meaningful democracy in the EU. Our only opportunity to have a say as citizens is to vote for members of the European Parliament, which as a body has so little power compared to the other parts of the institution that it would be quite fair to say that it exists merely to maintain an illusion of democracy. The EU hence lacks the democratic legitimacy to be able to justify its current power, let alone the new powers that this treaty demands.

 

What should be on the agenda then is greater democratisation of the EU, but it isn't going to happen - the bureaucrats down in Brussels have expressed only contempt for the people they govern. They know what's best for us, you see.

[Sparko]

I change my mind every day about how I'm going to vote. On the one hand I like the idea of a more unified Europe, but then I have to consider the difficulty that arises from implementing Europe-wide measures when every country is different and not everyone can benefit, the dilution of control etc.

 

To be honest, I don't understand the treaty well enough to use my vote properly, so that has me leaning towards a no vote because I can't really vote yes for something I don't understand. I wish there was an unbiased summary of the whole thing written in proper English, the treaty itself is way too complex. Every piece of information we've gotten from the Government is completely biased.

 

Another issue is that Sinn Féin, a socialist nationalist party in Ireland, are the only party who are pushing for a no vote, and out of principle I tend to try and do the exact opposite of what they propose. So yea, this message shows how I don't have a clue what way I'm going to vote on the day.

[gaggle64]

What should be on the agenda then is greater democratisation of the EU, but it isn't going to happen - the bureaucrats down in Brussels have expressed only contempt for the people they govern. They know what's best for us, you see.

 

You can't possibly describe the EU as anti-democratic. There was an election in 2004, one which saw the Euro-Sceptic parties toasting success. Elections are guaranteed every five years, so we'll have one next year.

[Shino]

Completely in favour of the EU and the unifying of its member states. We need to understand that divided we stand no chance compared with the rest of the world, we're a small continent and its highly fractured compared to others. If we don't harmonize our politics and regulations not only does that makes us weak compared to the other big powers it makes us struggle between ourselves.

 

Don't let your internal politics influence your decision as they did in France and Netherlands, this is much bigger than that.

[Twozzok]

Haha, sorry! I'm joking - I live in Harpenden, and one of my best friends is a Lutonian. Hell, I was born in the L&D, I am a Lutonian!

 

Chav.

 

 

To be honest, I don't understand the treaty well enough to use my vote properly, so that has me leaning towards a no vote because I can't really vote yes for something I don't understand. I wish there was an unbiased summary of the whole thing written in proper English, the treaty itself is way too complex. Every piece of information we've gotten from the Government is completely biased.

 

Pretty much this. How can we fully form our opinions on something we, at best, know biased version of?

[Haver]

Europe has little to no effect on U.K. sovereignty. We can still do what we want and we still get what we want 99% of the time.

 

Personally, I would prefer to join Antartica. It just seems like a continent with potential. Mainly for Ice Parties like on Die Another Day!

[Hellfire]

I don't know enough to comment on this, although the from the basis of the treaty, I'd probably agree.

 

Also, Mokong, you sound like an activist making a poster to rally people for a strike lol

[Jimbob]

In my opinion, Ireland should vote no on this treaty as it is basically the same as the EU constitution. Why are Ireland the only ones allowed to vote anyway, might it be because Ireland never signed the treaty unlike the other leaders of the EU countries. Vote no is what i say and show the EU leaders that you don't want to be formed into one.

 

But as i am already thinking, Ireland's vote probably won't count as the EU will go ahead with the treaty no matter what Ireland say be it yes or no

[Eenuh]

I have no idea what all of this is about...

 

But I don't see what could be wrong with a more unified Europe?

[stev2604]

Why are Ireland the only ones allowed to vote anyway,

 

It's because of a provision in our constitution. To make any changes to it, a referendum has to be held. Surprisingly we're the only country in Europe who has this in our constitution. As far as I know, if we vote yes, we lose this.

 

At the moment I'd vote no, but I haven't read the treaty yet. Interestingly, SIPTU(Services, Industrial, Professional & Technical Union) are recommending their members to vote no unless the government bring in new legislation to protect the rights of workers.

[Shino]

In other countries its assumed that the majority vote on the current government is democratic enough.

[Blue_Ninja0]

We need to be as united as possible or we don't stand a chance against outside treats. Europe could be a single political state for all I care. Country borders would be kept of course, but just with a symbolic significance.

It might be funny for giants like France or the UK to stay indifferent, but for smaller states...

[Mokong]

I'm sorry, but what are you basing that on? I've read nothing that isn't in the Daily Mail to suggest this. The only other union of this size retains most of it's autonomy, and each part has it's one laws and regulations (I'm talking about the USA...) That statement is 100% nationalistic propaganda. The fact you've mixed it with other, true statements makes it appear true to those who don't know much about this, so all you're doing here is purposefully misleading people.

 

True what you say about the states, but in the case of the Lisbon Treaty it will make EU Law and EU Constitution superior to the laws of each member country. In any case of conflict between the two the EU always wins.

 

So with the EU being in virtual total control over our laws and and making rules and regulations governing various sectors, to which we lose the right to veto if we don't agree, with in Irelands (and other smaller nations) case our voting strenght at the council of Ministers being significantly reduced (i suppose this doesn't bother you much as the UK's vote like Germanys gets increased) and for 5 out of every 15 years we lose our seat on the Commision (that happens to you too, does it not bother you laws and regulations will be decided and you have no representative to make sure those laws/regulations are do not have a negitive effect on your country), it does very much seem to me like handing control of our country over to a foreign power.

 

There's also the concern of the militarisation of Europe. Under the Lisbon Treaty all countries wil have to increase spending on militry funds yearly. For Ireland this could see us lose our status as a Neutral country, might not concern other outside Ireland but is a big issue for those of us here.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not aggainst the EU becoming stronger and working better, I think the EU as it is is great. And I'm sure it could be made better, but I feel turning the EU into a Federal State is not the right way to go.

 

When the EU Constitution was rejected and stopped by the French and the Dutch in 2005, the EU had the opportunity to find out what about the constitution the people did not like and find a way to improve Europe in a way the people would agree to.

 

Instead then went and re-wrote the EU Constitution in such a way that it is bearly made understandable by making numerous amendments to existing treaties so that it would look like nothing was new. And make it so referenda become optional in all countries (except Ireland) and then get the governments of those countries to agree to not let their people have a referendum, this in itself is a mockery of democracy. If they allowed all counrties to right to a referendum and the majority of people in all countries voted yes, I would accept that.

Though the way our government has been lacluster in its duty to provide solid unbaised information on the treaty to the public is somewhat underhanded. And I fear those people that do vote Yes on this will do so not because they understand the treaty but because the political party they hold alligence to told them to vote yes (like sheep).

 

But as i am already thinking, Ireland's vote probably won't count as the EU will go ahead with the treaty no matter what Ireland say be it yes or no

 

They can not ratify it unless all coutries agree to it. This is why in 2005 when they tried to ratify the EU Constiution only the French and Dutch voted, all other countries were meant to vote ut since it had already been rejected by the 1st two countries to vote there was no need to vote in the others.

 

I don't know enough to comment on this, although the from the basis of the treaty, I'd probably agree.

 

Also, Mokong, you sound like an activist making a poster to rally people for a strike lol

 

I think i read or heard somewhere Portugal was meant to also hold a referendum on this, but then you recently had a change in government and your new government cancelled it.... can you shed any light on that?

 

More videos

An Austrian speaks

 

a clip from We Are Change Ireland's Documentary called End of Nations

 

This self-amending treaty is a treaty to end all treaties. This is our last chance to avoid it! If Ireland votes Yes, there will be no need for any treaty referendums... ever!

[Hellfire]

No, there was no government change, our PM announced the decision after signing the treaty, although there was the possibility to have a referendum, it had nothing to do with our national politics.

[Shino]

Unfortunately I don't know enough of this, and neither do the No guys apparently, but I have yet to regret the EU so I'm an optimist.

 

I decided to inform myself on this and the first thing:

 

The Constitution, having been agreed by heads of government from the 25 Member States, was signed at a ceremony in Rome on 29 October 2004. Before it could enter into force, however, it had to be unanimously ratified by each member state. Ratification took different forms in each country, depending on the traditions, constitutional arrangements, and political processes of each country. In 2005, Dutch and French voters rejected the European Constitution in national referenda. While the majority of the Member States already had ratified the European Constitution, mostly through parliamentary ratification (though Spain and Luxembourg held referenda), due to the requirement of unanimity to amend the constitutional treaties of the EU, it became clear that it could not enter into force. This led to a "period of reflection" and the political end of the proposed European Constitution.

 

Spain and Luxembourg had already ratified the original text by referenda, and I'm sure that at the time both the French and the Dutch had a internal political crisis, they voted "no" in protest against their government.

[LazyBoy]

I don't give a shit about my nationality or british culture being dissolved. I'm against it because I want governments to become less powerful not more. Bigger governments get, the less powerful the people are. We need it small so it's easy to tear it down when the time comes.

[Hellfire]

People need to think a little less in extremes.