God? you there?

[Sanchez]

I think when you approach the issue in this light, casting aside any pre-conceptions or clichéd views of hell, it seems only a logical element of belief in the personal God.

 

Well my pre-conception of hell appears to be exactly what the bible describes multiple times.

 

2 Peter 2:4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

 

Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

Matthew 18:9

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

[Indigo]

Well my pre-conception of hell appears to be exactly what the bible describes multiple times.

 

2 Peter 2:4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

 

Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

Matthew 18:9

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Yes that is true, but I meant pre-conception of why hell is, and what it is a consequence of. Obviously there is the classic imagery of hell, and this is a metaphorical representation of the state of ultimate separation from God.

 

So Jesus said we should fear hell? Well I agree - we should fear separation from God, yes. That is why we need out of faith to accept the free gift of forgiveness that Jesus made possible, so that we can be liberated from our sin that has caused us to be detached from God. You quote Matthew 10:28, I suggest you read on:

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of our Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth many more than many sparrows." (29-31).

 

This is a beautiful expression of God's love for us. If we choose to reject this love and hence reject God, how can the consequence of separation from God be unjust? It's as Jesus himself says in verse 32 of the same chapter: "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

[The fish]

My ex-girlfriend's flatmate managed to get her to have an interest in christianity, and as such I went with them to an Alpha Course a couple of times. It was interesting to see what sort of close-reading they were doing, and how they interpreted parts of the bible. They were shocked when I was the first person each time to see what the extract was supposed to mean, and surprised that I seemed to actually know a bit about it all. I think it's good that you went in with an open mind and weighed up evidence yourself. I think it's important for everyone to do this - specifically I worry about those brought up not to question the scripture.

 

I go to my school's Alpha Course, and it would seem that their main argument is one that Darwin solved over 100 years ago... smooth...

I wish I'd had a camera to capture their expression when I answered "no" to "do you think we evolved from monkeys" and "so do really you think that we evolved by chance".

 

I despair at people's misunderstanding of Darwinism...

[Paj!]

I think "God" should be a woman.

[Supergrunch]

I go to my school's Alpha Course, and it would seem that their main argument is one that Darwin solved over 100 years ago... smooth...

I wish I'd had a camera to capture their expression when I answered "no" to "do you think we evolved from monkeys" and "so do really you think that we evolved by chance".

 

I despair at people's misunderstanding of Darwinism...

Yeah, presumably your point was that both monkeys and humans evolved from a common ancestor. Another common misconception is that "evolutionists" believe that humans are the pinnacle of evolution, which is far from the case - if anything, evolution makes all animals equal. But anyway, I think evolution and religion can coexist perfectly happily.

 

But enough talk, I have an essay on evolution to write. (no, really - sex ratios) :wink:

[ReZourceman]

I dont believe in god, and my opinion of people who do remains undisclosed.

[Haden]

I dont believe in god, and my opinion of people who do remains undisclosed.

 

Wow I cant wait to bust open that secret file!

[Kirkatronics]

lol, just noticed none of n-europe staff have voted yes

[Roostophe]

I don't know why I voted yes, I don't actually believe in the actual God Almighty or whatever He is called.

 

The existence of Paul McGrath should never be questioned by inferiors.

[Supergrunch]

lol, just noticed none of n-europe staff have voted yes

Odders has yet to vote.

[Raining_again]

Sure does. Keep with it. It takes alot of (seemingly blind and foolish) faith though to keep the chin up and stick with it like.

 

qft.

 

Stick with it. As long as you aren't hurting other people, there is no reason for people to tell you that you are wrong or act in an abusive or pushy manner towards you.

 

There is no OBVIOUS right or wrong answer to it all.

 

My fathers side of the family are incredibly religious and TBH I really don't like spending time with them, due to gettin chastised for my tattoos, piercings and dyed hair. (Is this really Christian behaviour at all?)

[Blue_Ninja0]

Well, clearly anyone here who says it exist or it does not exist is a blatant liar because theoretically none of us knows.

 

I voted yes because philosophy supports it's existence in a theory as something that created us (because everything was created from something, which means that even God was created by another superior God in an infinite ascendancy), and I support philosophy, therefore my answer. That also means we are also Gods of our creations. My head hurts now, thanks.

[The fish]

Well, clearly anyone here who says it exist or it does not exist is a blatant liar because theoretically none of us knows.

 

I voted yes because philosophy supports it's existence in a theory as something that created us (because everything was created from something, which means that even God was created by another superior God in an infinite ascendancy), and I support philosophy, therefore my answer. That also means we are also Gods of our creations. My head hurts now, thanks.

 

Firstly, based on the current evidence available, I can say god does not exist as anything more than an idea in some people's minds.

 

Secondly, the idea of a repeatedly expanding and detracting universe, which is constant, is simpler, and therefore is correct when compared to an infinite line of creators once you apply Occam's Razor.

 

I think evolution and religion can coexist perfectly happily.

 

They can co-exist perfectly, but unfortunately we a blighted by many religious folk who not only don't understand evolution, but they think that they do.

I had an interesting conversation with some friends from school coming back from a fireworks show a few weeks back, which started when a (very god-squad-y) girl started talking to someone else about how evolution didn't work. My more scientific (and Christian, in this case) friends, exchanged amused glances, but refrained from saying anything.

Or at least, we did until she said that "carbon dating doesn't work because they use it for dinosaurs but it can't date back that far".

 

[if you are bemused by this story, they don't use carbon-14 for dinosaurs, they use potassium-40 - some religious types really need to do learn what scientists are saying (and why the say it) before slamming it...]

[antster1983]

My fathers side of the family are incredibly religious and TBH I really don't like spending time with them, due to gettin chastised for my tattoos, piercings and dyed hair. (Is this really Christian behaviour at all?)

 

Not in the 21st century it isn't!

 

As an Anglican Christian myself I'm very open to other beliefs, be they Catholicism, Muslim, Atheism or whatever, and know myself that I am not perfect (ie. I drink a fish and curse like a fucking sailor and fantasise about the fairer sex like any other male), but I know that God did not make us all to be the same, otherwise life would be boring.

 

Personally I worship God in my own way - playing bass guitar in my church's music group and in my local Boys Brigade (and some of the BB officers and music group members are drinking buddies!). It feels like I'm giving something to the local community as well.

[jayseven]

The thing is, there surely cannot ever be complete and utter evidence for the existence of God - the whole idea of christianity is that you have faith; you're placing your existence into the hands of something unfathomable, and to some extent uncertain.

 

If there was ultimate truth to say LOOK THIS IS GOD!! then.. well everyone would be saved, and there would be no point at all in the trial of life on earth, would there?

 

If there is a God, benevolent or not, he would want his clique to be full of souls who do not question his existence (which is what Lucifer did) and not unbalance the stability of whatever heaven is.

 

I don't think anyone should ever feel forced to accept any God or religion. It should not be the fear of hell but the joy of heaven that should tempt (lol) you to believe.

 

Pascal's Wager (I think it is) is always worth a thought

 

One thing that totally rocks about being alive? Knowledge. Understanding or at least trying to fit the puzzle pieces together in some sort of mushy way in your mind to make a kind of sense. It's empowering. But the search for knowledge should never remove the question of "if". Even when you know that, for instance, the earth is round, you should not suddenly build up a barrier around the possibilities of what the world would be like if it was flat. You can follow that trail of thought as far as you like, and like I do about God, talk about it loads and loads, but it never means you have to believe it.

 

Yeah. The mind is a powerful tool, so what's wrong with imagining that there really is a god and that he really is a clever git from time to time? It's highly amusing to imagine how it is he's connived the world to be so far, and to imagine what his goal really is in terms of Humans, or the universe, or our souls or whatever.

 

... That's enough from meeeee...

[Oxigen_Waste]

You know what... all you people are constantly nagging that "everything must come from something". That's a blatant lie. All things human have a beginning. This is beyond the human comprehension field, things don't need to have a "beginning", ok?

 

EDIT:

lol, just noticed none of n-europe staff have voted yes

 

I'm like, so proud to be a part of this forum right now!

[jayseven]

You know what... all you people are constantly nagging that "everything must come from something". That's a blatant lie. All things human have a beginning. This is beyond the human comprehension field, things don't need to have a "beginning", ok?

I don't know... That's a great, but maybe slightly different discussion. I mean, the whole idea of Plato's Forms and shit. His idea was our human catagorising process inflicted upon the universe. Everything was once some sort of 'nothing' - but in actuality, before a tree was a tree, or a person was a person, or a planet was a planet they were just smaller bits floating around, or a part of something else. The argument is about the distinction between these smaller building blocks and the forms they take. The smaller things themselves may be eternal, but the forms they make are not.

 

Also the whole concept of time is brought into question in regards to beginnings and endings. we do not percieve time in a constant way anyway. We need things like clocks which are built to be show us regular patterns which we can link to time - our brain is not as regular as that. Whether the universe is actually one moment flowing into another, inot another, with no true past or present, or if it is actually all moments at once and our perception of time is some sort of journey, like a sculpture's chisel through marble, is impossible to tell.

 

What things do not need a beginning?

[weeyellowbloke]

Secondly, the idea of a repeatedly expanding and detracting universe, which is constant, is simpler, and therefore is correct when compared to an infinite line of creators once you apply Occam's Razor.

 

Hmmm, never really liked the idea of the expanding and detracting universe, especially seeing as red-shift data shows that expansion is accelerating rather than slowing down, but then who knows what jiggery pokery Dark Energy and Dark Matter might come up with.

 

The thing is, there surely cannot ever be complete and utter evidence for the existence of God - the whole idea of christianity is that you have faith; you're placing your existence into the hands of something unfathomable, and to some extent uncertain.

 

If there was ultimate truth to say LOOK THIS IS GOD!! then.. well everyone would be saved, and there would be no point at all in the trial of life on earth, would there?

 

If there is a God, benevolent or not, he would want his clique to be full of souls who do not question his existence (which is what Lucifer did) and not unbalance the stability of whatever heaven is.

 

I don't think anyone should ever feel forced to accept any God or religion. It should not be the fear of hell but the joy of heaven that should tempt (lol) you to believe.

 

Pascal's Wager (I think it is) is always worth a thought

 

Wasn't Lucifer thrown out for the opposite. God ordered all the angels to bow before his creation of humanity, but Lucifer refused saying he wouldn't bow to an imperfect being and would only bow to God. So God got a bit pissed off and chucked him out of heaven.

 

Other things I've been wondering recently: Does it not seem slightly egotistical to simply create living creatures purely so they can believe in you and worship you through faith. It's almost like God wasn't sure he even existed himself and so needed something external to him to prove his existance to himself. Also, God often seems prone to human emotions throughout the bible, seeing as we are made in his image (love, anger, frustration, doubt, jealousy). Emotions seem to be the main reason humans get lead astray, so if God has the same emotions then is it not possible that God could get lead astray and make mistakes as well? It could be our emotions aren't pure and God's are though, who knows. And another thing, what about other creatures, why are we the only creatures in the entire universe given an opportunity to get to heaven? What happens to the other creatures? Do they just die? Does that mean that the entire universe only exists for our benifit? I mean you could say we're the only creatures with a conscience and a soul, but if a soul is basically a personality and a conscience is knowing basic right from wrong then I know from owning dogs all my life that they should have a soul and a conscience. Hell, some of my dogs have more personality then most people I know. So they aren't judged, have no heaven and just die? What a waste.

 

Anyway, enough rambling banter from me. I'm staying at my position that no-one will ever be able to gain enough knowledge in their lifetime to make an informed choice or ever know the truth.

[ReZourceman]

Wow I cant wait to bust open that secret file!

 

Lol, as a broad one word statement ;

 

"fools"

 

[Oxigen_Waste]

I don't know... That's a great, but maybe slightly different discussion. I mean, the whole idea of Plato's Forms and shit. His idea was our human catagorising process inflicted upon the universe. Everything was once some sort of 'nothing' - but in actuality, before a tree was a tree, or a person was a person, or a planet was a planet they were just smaller bits floating around, or a part of something else. The argument is about the distinction between these smaller building blocks and the forms they take. The smaller things themselves may be eternal, but the forms they make are not.

 

Also the whole concept of time is brought into question in regards to beginnings and endings. we do not percieve time in a constant way anyway. We need things like clocks which are built to be show us regular patterns which we can link to time - our brain is not as regular as that. Whether the universe is actually one moment flowing into another, inot another, with no true past or present, or if it is actually all moments at once and our perception of time is some sort of journey, like a sculpture's chisel through marble, is impossible to tell.

 

What things do not need a beginning?

 

Whislt all you said is true, it does nothing to prove my point wrong. I am not saying things don't "need" a beginning. I'm saying that they may not have one. Is that so hard to understand? I agree with Einstein on this one: the big bang theory is ludicrous... WE FEEL THE NEED TO HAVE A RATIONAL EXPLANATION FOR EVERYTHING. And somethings can't be explained with our limited brain and knowledge. Consider the Universe: in the begginning there was nothing. Wich exploded. Does that make any type of sense? No! But people cling onto that just because they need an explanation, and I ask: Why? What does it matter? You cannot possibly beggin to understand even 5% of existence! For christ's sake, we can only perceive 10% of matter! All we know are assumptions! And based on the fact that all that we know has an origin, we apply that rule to all things wich we do not and cannot possibly understand. Why? Because we're stubborn and unable to look beyond our own stupidity and limitations. Who would ever dream of disagreeing with the Big Bang theory? They'de be the mock of the town... Fortunately, Einstein was the first, and soon many followed. Interesting, huh? Like Copernicus.

 

Fuck it, we're getting off topic.

 

Bottom line: "origin" is something that applies to us, because we are finite. Infinity has no need for origins or demises. It's just there. Unexplainble.

[Paj!]

We watched a video in RE today about religion and homosexuality. I'm not sure what conclusions wer esupposed to be drawn from it, but personally, it's quite sad for me to watch when men and women are denying what they are to conform to something so imaginary.

 

And yes, it is imaginary. One can have faith in the imaginary though. We imagine what god/heaven is like after all.

 

The fact most religions discriminates makes me want to throw the bible out the window, i'm sorry.

[Haden]

Lol, as a broad one word statement ;

 

"fools"

 

 

Wow illuminating. lol

 

And welcome to the party odwin!

[Kirkatronics]

We watched a video in RE today about religion and homosexuality. I'm not sure what conclusions wer esupposed to be drawn from it, but personally, it's quite sad for me to watch when men and women are denying what they are to conform to something so imaginary.

 

And yes, it is imaginary. One can have faith in the imaginary though. We imagine what god/heaven is like after all.

 

The fact most religions discriminates makes me want to throw the bible out the window, i'm sorry.

you dont know its imaginary,speakinglike thatmeans your telling themwaht to think.

 

and if god is imaginary, hes had a huge impact on the earth hasnt he?

i thinkthere must have beensomething to start the whole 'god' thing off,someone must have done something.

[weeyellowbloke]

Whislt all you said is true, it does nothing to prove my point wrong. I am not saying things don't "need" a beginning. I'm saying that they may not have one. Is that so hard to understand? I agree with Einstein on this one: the big bang theory is ludicrous... WE FEEL THE NEED TO HAVE A RATIONAL EXPLANATION FOR EVERYTHING. And somethings can't be explained with our limited brain and knowledge. Consider the Universe: in the begginning there was nothing. Wich exploded. Does that make any type of sense? No! But people cling onto that just because they need an explanation, and I ask: Why? What does it matter? You cannot possibly beggin to understand even 5% of existence! For christ's sake, we can only perceive 10% of matter! All we know are assumptions! And based on the fact that all that we know has an origin, we apply that rule to all things wich we do not and cannot possibly understand. Why? Because we're stubborn and unable to look beyond our own stupidity and limitations. Who would ever dream of disagreeing with the Big Bang theory? They'de be the mock of the town... Fortunately, Einstein was the first, and soon many followed. Interesting, huh? Like Copernicus.

 

Fuck it, we're getting off topic.

 

Bottom line: "origin" is something that applies to us, because we are finite. Infinity has no need for origins or demises. It's just there. Unexplainble.

 

Wait, what? Since when did Einstein deny The Big Bang. He was one of the people who suggested the theory that there was a Big Bang that'll be followed by a Big Crunch. Plus he died before there was any further evidence beyond the Doppler Shift effect (such as CMB radiation). I'm sure even if he did deny it back then due to lack of evidence he quite readily agree with it now based on modern observations. And how could could Copernicus deny the Big Bang when it wasn't even a theory in the early 16th century. Also the theory doesn't state that there was nothing, which then exploded. It suggest more that there was everything at a single point. I reckon you need to have a bit of a read up on the theory and the evidence behind it. (Yep I know I'm in for a big old flaming, but bugger it)

[Haden]

On the topic of flaming if a christian posted "fools" as a response to atheist thought u can bet he would be flamed more than a guy standing under a space rocket at launch, but an atheist does it and its legitmate. Im not saying its right for anyone to do but just a bit of a shame really.