Creationism vs. Evolution

[Jasper]

If there really was no selection anymore, then evolution would be impossible. However, there is still selection, it just takes a different form for humans today. Thus evolution is still taking place.

 

Not true. Yes, we need selection for evolution. But what if everyone is selected? My point is that mankind won't evolve like it did in the past ages. It will evolve into many sub-men, different evolutions. Because in this day and age even those who would not be selected a thousand years ago are now able to pass on their faults. So the evolution will evolve mankind into many little subkinds. There will be no real selection process anymore like the days of yore.

[Supergrunch]

Not true. Yes, we need selection for evolution. But what if everyone is selected? My point is that mankind won't evolve like it did in the past ages. It will evolve into many sub-men, different evolutions. Because in this day and age even those who would not be selected a thousand years ago are now able to pass on their faults. So the evolution will evolve mankind into many little subkinds. There will be no real selection process anymore like the days of yore.

Everyone is not selected. If someone, for some reason, cannot get a girlfriend, or has genes that cause them not to want children, then they are not selected.

[Jasper]

The point is, in the times witht he cro-magnon, showing your power would be enough to secure future for you. If you couldn't, you'd lose and your genes would die. Right now we are all capable of planting our genes - except gay people, though. There are few who can't get a girlfriend and being stronger or smarter doesn't actually help you anymore.

 

Yes, natural evolution might work a little different - but the point is that the best genes survive, if those genes are connected to the fact that they want to plant. Eventually, the better will enhance human kind.

[DCK]

No. You are misinterpreting the aim of evolution in that you think it has one.

It doesn't have an aim per se, but evolution is a process that encourages species that have adaptibility. Human kind excels in adaptability; therefore you could argue that we may be the most 'encouraged' or developed species around so far. This isn't falsifiable or anything so it's just random talk...

 

Anyway, I'm just keeping the discussion going. I like how it's developing.

[Supergrunch]

It doesn't have an aim per se, but evolution is a process that encourages species that have adaptibility. Human kind excels in adaptability; therefore you could argue that we may be the most 'encouraged' or developed species around so far. This isn't falsifiable or anything so it's just random talk...

 

Anyway, I'm just keeping the discussion going. I like how it's developing.

But adaptation is merely one of the results of evolution, and nothing to do with the process itself. Humans may (a big may) be the most adaptable species, but that doesn't necessarily they have "evolved more", because so a concept makes no sense. In the same way, they aren't "better evolved", because evolution doesn't have an aim.

[weeyellowbloke]

We did the origin of life today in our Earth history lecture, it was pretty interesting stuff. It seems that originally people thought that Earth's atmosphere was thought to originally be made up mainly of methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide and water vapour, so in the 1950's a number of experiments were done that used this combination of chemicals and exposed them to UV light (simulating sunlight) and electrical discharges (simulating lightening storms in the atmosphere). A whole lot of organic compounds seemed to be formed in these experiments including amino acids. So everyone thought organic compounds formed in the atmosphere, were dissolved in rainwater, rained into a dilute solution (the primordial soup) and it was here that the first cells formed from the organic compounds.

 

But then people found out that the atmosphere actually was originally made up of nitrogen, argon, cabon dioxide and water vapour, which unfortunately didn't produce anywhere near the amount of organic compounds in the same experiments. The original scenario was therefore all wrong and an alternative non atmospheric source for life had to be found. So a new concept was formed involving a hydrothermal system. Basically carbon dioxide rich sea water is taken down into the mantle through subduction, where metals and rare elements are extracted by the water from the mantle and combined with the carbon to produce organic molecules. This water was then fired out of vents on the sea floor and precipitated in the cold sea water creating cells. When this scenario was tested in an experiment it produced little microspheres which had some pretty weird characteristics. The inside of these spheres contained chemically different water on the inside compared to the outside and the spheres would absorb water from the outside in order to reach equalibrium. However when that happened they would grow and eventually split in two, which sounds pretty cell like. So the current theory is that these microspheres from vents on the sea floor gradually absorbed organic compounds from the water in the environment and became the first living cells which went by the funky name of chemolithoautotrophs.

 

Well I found it all interesting anyway.

[Jasper]

Thankls for pointing that out, WeeYellowBloke. It's a heap of text and actually speaks about the bare beginnings. Right now, though, nobody is really sure how it happened.

 

On the other subject, mankind is good at adaption and therefore excels in evolution. We can live in extreme cold as well as extreme heat - and that is our good point. So yes, mankind is perfect when you look at it in that way. All we have to learn is move faster than light and breath in space.

[ZeldaFreak]

One thing for people who believe in creationism who created god?

[Jasper]

One thing for people who believe in creationism who created god?

 

Now if we start like that we won't be finished in twenty-hundred years from now. The Bible says we should just accept the fact that God is there. Just like science explains to us that the energy used to make the universe was always there and was never created. The strange thing about humans is they're not capable of accepting the fact that there was always something, something standard. We shouldn't ask where that energy that shaped the universe came from - but still we do.

[DCK]

But adaptation is merely one of the results of evolution, and nothing to do with the process itself. Humans may (a big may) be the most adaptable species, but that doesn't necessarily they have "evolved more", because so a concept makes no sense. In the same way, they aren't "better evolved", because evolution doesn't have an aim.

I suppose that depends on your definition of what aim is - of course evolution doesn't have an aim in the sense that the process thinks out which creatures to evolve into what. The process does have an aim in the sense that it creates succesful, adaptable life as a consequence of its definition. Its consequences could be regarded as the systems goals, and the succesfulness and adaptibility of humanity makes it seem as if we are the closest yet to the goal, at least in terms of adaptibility.

[Supergrunch]

I suppose that depends on your definition of what aim is - of course evolution doesn't have an aim in the sense that the process thinks out which creatures to evolve into what. The process does have an aim in the sense that it creates succesful, adaptable life as a consequence of its definition. Its consequences could be regarded as the systems goals, and the succesfulness and adaptibility of humanity makes it seem as if we are the closest yet to the goal, at least in terms of adaptibility.

But evolution is so blind that attaching an aim to it is meaningless. It's like saying the aim of a stone is to sink in water.

[DCK]

But evolution is so blind that attaching an aim to it is meaningless. It's like saying the aim of a stone is to sink in water.

Well, if you throw a stone in water your aim is to sink it, right? In the same sense life has 'used' evolution to grow more succesful. If something has a function or property, it has an aim to some degree.

 

I don't know if I'm making sense really...

[ZeldaFreak]

Evolution is correct as it is been proved thorugh DNA, creationism was used in ancient times as a method of comforting people witha fear of the unknown.

 

Can you end this discusssion now please.

[DCK]

Evolution is correct as it is been proved thorugh DNA, creationism was used in ancient times as a method of comforting people witha fear of the unknown.

 

Can you end this discusssion now please.

Are you reading at all? We passed that discussion long ago.

[Supergrunch]

Well, if you throw a stone in water your aim is to sink it, right? In the same sense life has 'used' evolution to grow more succesful. If something has a function or property, it has an aim to some degree.

 

I don't know if I'm making sense really...

Your aim may be to sink the stone, but the stone itself has nothing to do with that. It just sinks as a result of the laws of physics. Similarly, animals adapt as a result of the laws of evolution.

[ZeldaFreak]

Are you reading at all? We passed that discussion long ago.

 

Well then the subject line should be changed o otherwised locked if its already been covered.

[Supergrunch]

Well then the subject line should be changed o otherwised locked if its already been covered.

Don't you think it's a bit draconian to immediately lock a thread that strays a little off track, if it's still providing interesting discussion?

[Jasper]

Evolution is correct as it is been proved thorugh DNA, creationism was used in ancient times as a method of comforting people witha fear of the unknown.

 

Can you end this discusssion now please.

 

Are you reading at all? We passed that discussion long ago.

 

Aw wait, that has been said before! You were faster, but I do agree.

[ZeldaFreak]

Don't you think it's a bit draconian to immediately lock a thread that strays a little off track, if it's still providing interesting discussion?

 

Well then get the subject line changed to something like "How the universe happened", something like that

[Jasper]

Well then get the subject line changed to something like "How the universe happened", something like that

 

The Zelda: Twilight Princess thread is more like a general Zelda thread to. It started with creationism and evolution and now it has changed - like a normal conversation is. No need to change the table when you change the subject, now is it? No lock needed on this one, at least we're talking about something very interesting.

[BlueStar]

Well then get the subject line changed to something like "How the universe happened", something like that

 

You don't think the fact creationism is mentioned in the topic title may give a clue that there will be discussion of the creation of the universe?

[Kurtle Squad]

A few things happening I've heard about that could hint at our current evolution

- Brown hair becoming the norm for humans

- People becoming more hairless

- Pinky finger is disappearing

Brown hair has a stronger whatsit; beats blonde and GINGE!!!

Hairlessness is seen as more physically attractive; though now evolution will... stop the hairless thing since people are just taking it all off unnaturally now.

....My lil finger's not disappearing silly:heh:

[Supergrunch]

Yeah, the others may be true, but where did you the little finger thing from?

[Jasper]

Let's see how we make seperate groups: in Sweden most people have blonde hair and blue eyes. Even though brown is the dominant hair color and eye color. But they're keeping their breed local - and that's how the swedish would - if there wasn't any intervention - will become an apart 'breed' of humans. So eventually, human kind will split up - or the best will survive.

[Supergrunch]

Let's see how we make seperate groups: in Sweden most people have blonde hair and blue eyes. Even though brown is the dominant hair color and eye color. But they're keeping their breed local - and that's how the swedish would - if there wasn't any intervention - will become an apart 'breed' of humans. So eventually, human kind will split up - or the best will survive.

Yes, it's an example of allopatric speciation.