When we are dead.

[The fish]

Simply put, yeah. It's one of the major reasons why I don't believe. I wouldn't put it that harshly though, because I guess you'll offend Haden and some others now.

 

Well the ":heh:" suggests that I mean it light-heartedly...

[Hellfire]

To be honest, when I was a kid I was a a catholic private school for 4 years, so I was obviously catholic, but when I got out, I thought more and I just saw religion as an escape from real life or as an excuse, I can never 100% believe that there is a God without proof, that's just the scientist in me. I do believe that there may be higher levels of existance like us and that would be closest to a God, who knows. But, sometimes, when I'm suffering, I'm kind of a hypocrite and I wish there was a God that would help me.

But, I also think like this, if there's a God, a perfect being, why would he share the good and evil perceptions that we, human beings have? It doesn't make sense. And if there really is a good God, like the catholics believe, would it matter if people worship him? Isn't the need of worship a human caracteristic (and flaw). And if he really is a good God, he doesn't care if we believe or not, just as long as we are good inside. That's what I think anyway, but I don't look down on people who believe, just on fanatics.

[The fish]

Just so you all know, I am not a totally fanatic atheist. If evidence was presented to me that proved that a certain religion is correct, then I would convert. However, the evidence is overwhelmingly anti-religion.

[Rummy]

EDIT:I managed to miss two pages again!

 

You're a stupid, stupid idiot. We're talking about something serious and you have to go and ruin it. I agree, Shorty, everything exists for a reason. Sure, the big bang may be true, but it happened for a reason. Maybe that reason was God. There is no evidence God doesn't exist, and explosions happen because something- someone triggers them.

 

Firstly, lighten up a bit.

Secondly, why is there a reason? You say the big bang happened for a reason, why is that so? How do you know it happened for a reason, rather than just happening? This is where the problem lies, the human problem, that we must have some sort of reason and explanation for everything, and can't seem to cope with the fact sometimes there just isn't a reason or explanation.

 

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.

 

I find that very hard to believe. Firstly, 1 million 'scientists' in the world? I think it's probably ALOT more than that given the world population, also, define scientist.

2.1million Christians in the world? That's a pretty small proportion given the world population. Christianity being biggest world religion? You want to back that up with something? Seriously, I don't think a religion with just 2.1million followers would qualify anywhere for being the biggest world religion. Unless your 'world' is like the size of london or something. Just where did you get all of this information from? I gotta say, you aren't helping yourself come across as educated at all.

 

I agree with alot of ginger chris's post earlier, which I am going to quote, because I feel it is worthy of another quotage.

 

I wonder if primordial self replicating strands had this same discussion?

 

They were relf replicating when all the other molecules didn't that obviouly made them special. I wonder if they contemplated why they replicated by other molecules didn't. What was the purpose of this replication? Maybe they couldn't explain it, so they called it god, to make themselves feel special rather than just accepting it was a fluke based on the interaction between the fundamental forces that they replicated.

 

People believe God exists because they want to feel like they have a purpose and are somehow "special".

 

People believe in an afterlife because they don't want admit their own fragility and have given themselves a self profess purpose. Surely not believing in an afterlife is better, because it mean you value every second of life, because all it is is a stupidly unlike fluke in molecular chemistry that your here in the first place.

[DCK]

In fact, science has proven things happen without a reason. As it has to do with quantum mechanics, I won't explain, but stuff in very small things all around you happens randomly.

 

That means the Big Bang could also have occurred without reason.

[Supergrunch]

And how am I flaming???

The difference between flaming and destroying someone's argument:

 

Flaming:

I prefer the term "ramblings of a maniac":wink:

 

Destroying someone's argument:

Maybe, but your argument goes like this:

 

There are 1 million scientists.

 

There are 2.1 million Christians.

 

2.1 million > 1 million

 

Therefore there is a God.

 

That's not an argument, it's just random unconnected statements.

 

By the way, before anyone tries to say I'm aggressively forcing people to be atheists, I'm an agnostic.

[The fish]

Err...it's called a joke...

You may have heard of them. (That was one too, by the way)

[Kurtle Squad]

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.

The 'whole' world also once thought the world was flat....because they didn't know what was 'at the end'.

[Supergrunch]

Err...it's called a joke...

You may have heard of them. (That was one too, by the way)

I know, but people take it as flaming. I'd be wary about directly insulting people.

[Mr. Bananagrabber]

Err...it's called a joke...

 

Sums up most of this thread to be brutally honest.

[Ginger_Chris]

Btw, just thought you'd like to know but there are a large number of scientists that do believe in God. They see the world and how it works so perfectly, if the value of electrons charge, protons mass etc were even slightly different then the universe would have annihilated itself in few nanoseconds, or expanded and cooled to quickly that everything would be close to absolute zero.

 

The fundamental constants of physics are so finely tuned for the universe to exist, never mind for self replicating molecules to exist. Once you have those, evolution takes over. Given the right set of stimuli, cells form, then multicellular organisms. once those happen you have to be lucky for the planets star not to end its lifetime, or a asteroid to come and destroy the planet. Added onto the fact heavy elements necessary for life as we know it HAVE tocome from a second or third generation star. The odd are looking massively stacked against life.

 

But we're here.

 

Is this because god created the universe to his exact specifications in the beginning? (sorry guys but the idea of a god actually existing and creating adam eve and all thats stuff just doesnt make any logical sense whatsoever so im not even going to consider that one).

 

Its possible that god created the universe he wanted by setting those values. I prefer the idea that there are an infinite number of universes and it just so happens that we exist in one of the infinite number that have life, as opposed to the infinite number where mass and energy have yet to separate.

 

We are here because through a complex series of fortunate events, we have no real purpose, we just are. Does a quark have a purpose? no, its just influenced by its surrounding and influence quarks around it, just like humans. Even the purpose to continue the species, isnt really a purpose, its just how we go here, by millions of generations of other things reproducing, and not getting eaten by something larger or infected by something smaller.

 

Basically, life is special, not because a supreme being created us, but because we're so lucky to have it, that its a complete waste to squander it.

[Rummy]

"God does not play dice."

 

A famous quote, from a famous scientist about quantum physics, who believed devoutly in God. He was Albert Einstein, who I'm sure you know was a pioneer of physics. Science and Religion are not mutually exclusive, and thinking so doesn't make you much better than those people thinking that all christians are naiive and narrow minded.

 

I happen to think life, or existence, is an inevitability either way. It just so happens that in our case we ended up being the dominant species of this planet, and the dominant lifeforms. I don't find it hard to explain or believe, given the theory of evolution and how it took place over a very large number of years. Had we just appeared as we are one day, or were the story of adam and eve/garden of eden true, then THAT is what I would find hard to believe, that we could actually come from nothing into such an advanced being. I suppose the irony of it is that I can believe however that as an individual we can dissappear into nothing in the blink of an eye.

[4q2]

What is a fortean? I swear I never seen that word before, and then it popped up like 10 times yesterday! Admittedly 9 of those times were probably in the same book and on the same subject, but it's still weird! Thanks for the quantum physics thing, I tried reading it last night but I could only think of AS physics and get confused and stuff I just read it through again though, and it is rather interesting, it helped me understand some principles of quantum physics too. A very interesting theory! I find it hard to believe that a consciousness is JUST made up of light though, otherwise, why do we even have bodies?

One thing it does make me think quite alot of Dust, and the Dust Theory from His Dark Materials, it's all quite interesting indeed!

 

Fortean simply put is a word for someone who neither believes or disbelieves until the evidence is presented in full.

I've never been into the whole blind faith thing, but afterlife sort of slants against my logic of things anyway, it makes no sense in the religious perspective for me.

 

The quantum theory cutting out all the crap is pretty believable dependant on which way it is interpretted or which version you read.

The most understandable version I came across is the brain (presuming it is the seat of the soul) is nothing but electrical and chemical energy. Energy never dies it just changes form, "each action creates an opposite and equal reaction" . The electrical impulses/energies of the brain cannot just zap out of existence in quantum physics......But would that energy be still bound for a indefinite period of time after death and would that still be a conscious working structure without the tissue of a body ?

 

I cant see anything giving me an answer in this lifetime and if there is a christian style afterlife, I'm most likely gonna eternally burn in hell anyway....home again.

At least I wont need to worry about heating bills.

[Ginger_Chris]

"God does not play dice."

 

Most badly quoted phrase ever.

 

In quantum everything is based on probabilities, You never know the exact position of any particle, it always has a probability distribution. its influence on other particles cannot be determined based on where it is, but where it is on average. This uncertainty in anything is best summed up by hisenbergs uncertainty principle, to non commuting operators (position and momentum, or energy and time) have an uncertainty product ofat least h(bar)/2.

 

Einstien was a strong supporter of particle theory, and that underlying quantum physics was a strict set of rules. That quote is his disapproval of the direction quantum mechanics was going, not about the existence of God.

 

Einstein worked most of his life trying to find the underlying laws without success, and given the fact that quantum mechanics has had so many successes and proved right countless times, it seems on this fact Einstein was wrong. Einstien was the greatest physics by far, ever. He had so many origional ideas, and should have won 5 noble prizes for works all completed in just 1905.

 

Taking that quote out of context using it for the debate whether God exists or not, is just undermining everything Einstein did that he got right.

[Ginger_Chris]

Without going to Wikipedia, can you please enlighten us on another way?

 

*me, me, me, let me answer pleeeaassseee*

[The fish]

Without going to Wikipedia, can you please enlighten us on another way?

 

As to how the earth is formed? Simple: gravity.

 

Sums up most of this thread to be brutally honest.

 

Yeah, that sounds about right...

[DCK]

Is this because god created the universe to his exact specifications in the beginning?

No, this one can be explained through logic again. The universe may have been recreated an infinite number of times before the universal constants happened to be right to make life. The fact that we're here to observe that is logical, after all, this universe is right for us by definition. That doesn't make this universe special. Also, life may well be created with other universal constants. There is simply no way to test this.

 

Also, Einstein wasn't religious. That's a misconception.

 

Note that I'm no atheistic fundamentalist or anything; logic is sometimes stronger than the supernatural however.

[Ginger_Chris]

No, this one can be explained through logic again. The universe may have been recreated an infinite number of times before the universal constants happened to be right to make life. The fact that we're here to observe that is logical, after all, this universe is right for us by definition. That doesn't make this universe special. Also, life may well be created with other universal constants. There is simply no way to test this.

 

Also, Einstein wasn't religious. That's a misconception.

 

Note that I'm no atheistic fundamentalist or anything; logic is sometimes stronger than the supernatural however.

 

You read the rest of my post and next post right?

 

However your "logic" there is flawed. If you believe there is only one universe your logic has no meaning. If you believe there is an infinite number of universe (as I do), then it makes perfect sense.

 

The flaw is that at the present time neither of those beliefs have proofs. We have no idea what happened before or at the moment of the big bang, only what happened a few femto-seconds after (10^-15). We also have no proof of wether there are an infinite number of universes.

 

When there is no proof either way, Its a matter of belief, which one seems most likely to you as a person. Hence you can't argue about logic in this particular case, as your making an assumption that isn't necessarily true or proved.

 

As someone who is a is strongly atheist, and often has discussion with people who are devout Christians (and also know a fair amount of science), there is no right answer because eventually it does come down to a belief. Many part of Christianity can be disproved but there are many as Scientists we simply don't know, and possibly will never know.

[Rummy]

Most badly quoted phrase ever.

 

In quantum everything is based on probabilities, You never know the exact position of any particle, it always has a probability distribution. its influence on other particles cannot be determined based on where it is, but where it is on average. This uncertainty in anything is best summed up by hisenbergs uncertainty principle, to non commuting operators (position and momentum, or energy and time) have an uncertainty product ofat least h(bar)/2.

 

Einstien was a strong supporter of particle theory, and that underlying quantum physics was a strict set of rules. That quote is his disapproval of the direction quantum mechanics was going, not about the existence of God.

 

Einstein worked most of his life trying to find the underlying laws without success, and given the fact that quantum mechanics has had so many successes and proved right countless times, it seems on this fact Einstein was wrong. Einstien was the greatest physics by far, ever. He had so many origional ideas, and should have won 5 noble prizes for works all completed in just 1905.

 

Taking that quote out of context using it for the debate whether God exists or not, is just undermining everything Einstein did that he got right.

 

I know the quote and I know what he meant by it, my point was supposed to be that a scientist would be unlikely to talk about god like that unless they believed in god. My point was to be that Einstein had a strong religious belief, whilst being a scientist, something THE gannondorf seemed to be implying isn't possible.

I believe the quote is him insisting that god does not play with probabilities, that everything is set out, and that there is no chance, or is that wrong?

[Kurtle Squad]

I find religious scientists are just 'religioners' that try and explain science by adding God because they ignore the truth and try and twist things (like Christianity espesially always does).

[Ginger_Chris]

I know the quote and I know what he meant by it, my point was supposed to be that a scientist would be unlikely to talk about god like that unless they believed in god. My point was to be that Einstein had a strong religious belief, whilst being a scientist, something THE gannondorf seemed to be implying isn't possible.

I believe the quote is him insisting that god does not play with probabilities, that everything is set out, and that there is no chance, or is that wrong?

 

Einstein believed the world was deterministic, Quantum Physics says it isn't. Einsteins quote has nothing to do with God, just that he believed the Universe acts in a deterministic manner.

[Rummy]

It has nothing to do with God? How can a quote about god have nothing to do with god? I am not saying it is a quote about god, just a quote showing a belief in god. What do you mean by deterministic?

[mcj metroid]

wow this thread is still going eh.Am Well i don't believe in god but i have no other solutions to how the world was created.

[Ginger_Chris]

Deterministic is the Idea that we knew the position and momentum and energy state etc of every particle in the universe, we could predict exactly what was going to happen. On a macroscopic level (ie things like people, balls, tables, planets etc) this is fairly true due to the statistical properties of having insane numbers of atoms in a object. Think mechanics, knowing a set of equations you can plot the trajectory of a ball or something.

 

In quantum mechanics this isn't the case, as particles only have a probabiltiy of being somewhere, and you can't know their exact position and momentum at same time etc. You can't know exactly know what will happen. If two neutron and an Uranium-235 nucleus collide, they could scatter from each other, the neutron could be absorbed and a photon emitted, or the neutron could be absorbed and the thing undergoes fission, releasing huge amounts of energy. However you have no idea whats going to happen, and if it undergoes fission what the products will be. You only have the probability of things happening. When you have a large number of interactions happening, they they form distributions, and you can fairly accurately predict what will happen ON AVERAGE.

 

Einstein believed all these probabilities have an underlying set of laws that determined what was going to happen. Spent most of his later life working on this problem. The God part of the quote, was him showing that it was what he believed. Its a quote about Belief, not about God.

[Rummy]

So he didn't believe in God at all then? I know about quantum physics not be exact, but relying on probabilties, but my physics teacher told me the quote was about him believing things to be exact, no room for error in a way. The point I was using the quote for was not to say whether god exists or not, not to highlight his opinions of quantum physics, but just to point out he believed in god, or is that what you dispute?