Grazza

For me, part of the problem is that they're no longer one thing or the other. OK, I did enjoy New Super Mario Bros on the DS, but I don't think 2.5D is as good as 2D. As for Super Mario 3D Land, don't get me wrong, that was a solid 8/10 and I was very grateful for it last November as it was a blast and I enjoyed it quite a lot more than Skyward Sword. However, whilst it was 3D in most ways (polygons, controls), much of the level design was 2D, yet not fixed to a single plane. Although this wasn't game-ruining, by not being a fully 3D venture, it didn't have a chance of quite being up there with Sunshine, Galaxy etc. So what I'm saying is that the two types should diverge and be the best they can be. It's odd, the idea of a new 3D Mario on Wii U should indeed be very exciting, so if that's what it is then I'll take it back. If it's another 2.5D "New Super Mario Bros", that's understandable, but uninspiring. If it's a fully 2D game based on Super Mario World, with sprites, d-pad control, fixed-plane gameplay and loads of crazy sprite-scaling, I'll do cartwheels!

Yes, quite. I've been thinking about why I didn't much like Skyward Sword, the core reason, I mean, and I think I've worked out what it was. Previously, Zelda games incorporated rich worlds to explore, almost like playsets. Wind Waker took it to the extreme with the 8-day cycle and, as the Eurogamer article puts it, a "huge skybox". I can't stress enough how much that quote struck a chord with me. A huge skybox is exactly what all of the subsequent games don't have. It may sound like a boring, technical thing, but it's actually the key to why Wind Waker was so immersive. By not breaking up the map into separate "rooms", Nintendo were able to create an unparalleled level of immersion, as there was not a single loading screen in the entire overworld. Yes, the islands were small and far apart, but that's why you need new technology to drive things forward. By setting up this technical marvel, we, the gamers, were able to take it however we wanted - either progressing the main story or tinkering about with the sidequests. Skyward Sword, on the other hand, was not a technical marvel. It was less like a game and more like a story you played through. To me, the issue is not Fi giving hints about where to go (there have always been hints), it's how you are escorted through the game. "Now do this, now do that. Scene 1, Scene 2, Scene 3... etc". All games have to be somewhat linear, but previous Zeldas gave you a world to play about in, for you to progress the story at your leisure. Setting aside whether things like the trials and collectathons were fun (my opinion - not, but it's entirely subjective), the problem is that they were scenes set up for you, rather than something you could activate when you wanted. Now compare this to Wind Waker's Triforce Hunt - that is not a "scene". It is a game event that takes place in exactly the same overworld you've been exploring and plays 100% consistently with how you've been playing the rest of the game. Find the pieces in any order you like. Stop off at any unexplored islands you might find on the way. Basically, you can still do whatever you like. At the end of the day, I'm not saying everyone should like Wind Waker or that all Zelda games should be exactly like it, but I am saying that they should be made with the same spirit and passion for technical excellence, combined with a general sense of "play". That doesn't mean they all have to be set at sea. Personally, I think those who suggested Zelda in space understood the series more than those who would keep it strictly a leafy fantasy. Far better to keep changing the setting and remain the same series at heart than to do something like Skyward Sword, as to me, the series is becoming something that is only Zelda in name.

LOL, some plain-speaking there from @darksnowman!

So, there could be New Super Mario Bros on the Wii U (2.5D) and Super Mario 4 on the 3DS (hopefully 2D, sprites and all). To be honest, my heart sinks more and more at the thought that two new Mario games might be the biggest thing Nintendo shows at E3 this year. I know they're necessary, and the 3DS one could be a gem if it's like a spruced-up version of Super Mario World, but there's still a lot more they need to do with the 3DS - Metroid and Zelda, to name two - before it has the complete line-up. Same goes for the Wii U.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that Wind Waker actually had an 8-day cycle! The moon had eight different versions, which affected at least three things I can think of: - Which Goron salesmen were on which islands - Ghost Ship location - Which Legendary Pictographs you could get from the photographer on Windfall Island

I do agree, but I also think Majora's Mask developed the idea, or at least introduced the concept of "schedule". Whilst I enjoyed the time travel, what really blew my mind is the idea that someone would try to make a delivery to the farm, or Kafei would leave Clock Town and travel to the canyon. Maybe it was a little bit too complicated, which is why I thought they refined it perfectly in Wind Waker, with the NPC routines on Windfall, spying on the man who posted a love letter every day! For the next game, I would love to see NPCs going about their business in the fields, going between towns, crossing seas, making deliveries etc, and all on a daily or 3-day cycle etc.

I agree, Ronnie, I just think "Twilight Princess in HD" is better than a halfway compromise. Wind Waker is the best of all, though, there's no doubt about that. The idea that Nintendo took criticism of Wind Waker to heart is the worst thing that happened to gaming.

Having said that, as much as I do appreciate aspects of Twilight Princess and as much as I agree with many criticisms of Skyward Sword, I have just read something that has put it all into perspective. It's an outstanding article by Christian Donlan on Eurogamer, about what I consider the series' highlight, Wind Waker: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-15-retrospective-the-legend-of-zelda-the-wind-waker I've already posted it on the retro board, and I wonder if I shouldn't post it in this thread, but I have and I'll explain why. The article has reminded me how uniquely brilliant Wind Waker was. Let's say Nintendo fixed all our specific criticisms about recent Zeldas... Unfortunately, I still have doubts that would be enough on its own. When you recall the many genius aspects of Wind Waker, it's just too much for anyone to explain. Sadly, I wonder if Nintendo (or any game company) is up to it. Sorry to be negative, but perhaps the genius has flown the nest? Hopefully not.

I have just read the most outstanding article about Wind Waker on Eurogamer. The author, Christian Donlan, understands the game so deeply it's unreal: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-15-retrospective-the-legend-of-zelda-the-wind-waker It's too good not to quote a few bits: But I highly recommend reading the whole thing. Wind Waker. Nintendo's masterpiece. They don't make 'em like that any more.

Oh yeah, TP's soundtrack is fantastic, and even better when orchestrated. The Twilight Princess Symphony on the CD that came with Skyward Sword is even better than the Wind Waker one.

Skyward Sword did some things better, whereas Twilight Princess excelled in other areas. Skyward Sword fixed an awful lot of the issues in TP, but got confused about what Zelda should be along the way. For atmosphere, having a better character of its own and generally sticking more closely to the Zelda formula, I'd give the edge to Twilight Princess.

I wonder if they've been monitoring all the quizzes we've been doing on Letterbox!

Cor, that looks brilliant. I notice there are four spaces now, but there are also giant monsters that take up three spaces (meaning you can have a healer + a giant).

I made the mistake of getting Zenonia with my spare points from Shantae.

No, I didn't.

Sounds encouraging, apart from the fact Super Mario World was officially Super Mario IV. If it's as good as that though, I won't complain about the numbers!

I don't know. I should say I haven't played any of the games I suggested to you, they're just the ones I would be tempted by. Personally, I am a little bit put-off by Dark Void Zero's NES origins, and I hear it's somewhat Metroid-like so I don't know if it'd be for you either. Going by the remake, Cave Story is a good game, albeit hard and, again, it's rather Metroid-like. (Not to mention it's currently unavailable in Europe!) So I would guess Mighty Milky Way is a good contender for you. I must be honest, it is not the type of game I'd want to play if it wasn't by WayForward. But the sprite work looks good and the music is by the excellent Jake Kaufman so I think I'll give it a go sooner or later.

WTF? I would never have guessed that from the opening image! (Gets headphones and prepares to watch...)

Almost 41 hours - spent ages Synthesising and adding skillsets. Now I'm going to do the post-game.

Good timing, @\-Dem0\-. I just completed DQMJ:2 in the last hour! I haven't got much to say about it really other than it was a very good game. The music in particular was beautiful and fully orchestrated. Some of the storytelling and staging was fantastic, putting big-budget games to shame. The 3D graphics put me right there in the story, which was moody and almost scary at times. There was one bit in particular that sent a chill down my spine and had me saying "bravo". Both of these things had me thinking "What the heck happened with Dragon Quest IX?" It was a great game, but lacking in terms of presentation.

Just had a look. At the moment, it's five squares to the right when you start up the eShop.

Yeah, I'm pretty convinced by this one and almost certain to buy it on release. Only one problem - is there anyone who doesn't want to play as a sword-wielding, bipedal lion?

To be honest, I don't really believe in visual styles ageing well or badly. It's like Ocarina of Time on the N64 - people say it's aged badly, but I remember it looking blurry and juddery back in 1998. I agree with what you say about Wind Waker - it looked fantastic on release and always will - but there's no way Skyward Sword is in the same league as the limitations are clear already. Personally, I don't think Skyward Sword's visuals are anything like as good as the TP 2004 trailer, but that is just a matter of opinion. Twilight Princess itself won't age very well but, like I say, it didn't look very good on release (still better than SS though, as it wasn't a halfway measure). At the risk of labouring the point, the Wii U demo looks fantastic and will continue to do so. However, I agree in theory that something with even more artistic flair could be created. I always side with the more cartoony style if it's done well. Wrap something like the OOT 3D style in full cel-shading like Wind Waker and it'd probably be a winner.

OK, thanks chaps. It's just that picture a few pages back had me worried!

Great stuff as usual, S.C.G. It's getting harder and harder for me not to buy it! From what I've seen, I think they got the tone just right. The character models of Pit and Palutena are spot-on, as are the enemies. As you say, it is self-aware, which I find refreshing. The whole thing reminds me of cartoons I used to watch, and the good ones at that. By the way, is anyone playing this without a screen protector? If so, is your screen scratched yet?