Grazza

I think it's got a lot to do with how masterful the game design is. Thinking back to when Link to the Past was released, it caused a real buzz in our school. Everyone knew it was an awesome game and wanted to play it. Similar story with Link's Awakening. Admittedly this doesn't dispell your "age" theory, but I honestly think these two were more respected in their time than Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks were in theirs. Not that I want to have a go at the DS games, because I did enjoy them - I just think they were the result of muddled thinking. Personally, my favourite Zeldas are the ones that are really good at being 2D and the ones that are really good at being 3D, namely: OOT, MM, WW, LttP, LA. If you take PH and ST, the 3D bits are quite immersive but the 2.5D sections just don't feel right (in my opinion). The dungeons are too "smooth" and not built on grids, there is no Dungeon Compass and they're full of those awful grey doors that open when you solve certain puzzles! The 3D games, on the other hand, are all fully 3D, but some handle it better than others. Ocarina of Time is great, Majora's Mask is great. Wind Waker takes the idea of exploration even further. Twilight Princess has a pretty good overworld, but it was a fumbled project in many ways. Skyward Sword, though... even if you liked the motion controls I don't think many people would consider that a great 3D game design.

Good thread, Hogge. Here are my suggestions: 1) eShop Details Right now we don't know if GameCube is going to be on the eShop. We don't know if NES and SNES will have any advantages over the Wii (such as 60hz versions). We don't know if N64 and GameCube will be in HD. We don't know anything! Remember that Europe never got the Progressive Scan versions of GameCube games (you could play them in 60hz, but not Progressive Scan). Imagine if Nintendo confirmed that a best-yet version of Wind Waker (preferably 720p or 1080p) would be available on Day One... I honestly think I might pre-order one just for that. 2) Graphical Showcases What I wanted to see at E3 were lots of games that showcase the Wii U's power as a 3D games machine - F-Zero, WaveRace, 1080, Pilotwings. I'm pretty sure an online, 60fps F-Zero HD would have people throwing their money at Nintendo right now. 3) Big 1st-Party Games Not much to say about this, other than I'm sure that 3D Mario and Metroid are a big factor in whether people buy a Nintendo console. They're some of the company's very best games and a great chance to see what kind of game engines the machine can pull off. 4) Zelda! Yes, so important it gets its own number! I know people like Reggie get exasperated at Nintendo fans wanting to see Zelda every time they launch a console, but there is a good reason for this! Whatever the sales say, no other series inspires so much. No other series makes Nintendo fans look forward to the type of escapism Zelda offers. Not that they should have a Zelda game at launch - that would be a pretty bad move, in my opinion - but let's say they've been working on it for a year... It could reasonably be released for Christmas 2014 (and probably should). Now I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather see something than nothing. Just the sheer pleasure of seeing something like the E3 2011 demo, or the reassurance that it will use the GamePad (after all this misguided talk about there being no way back from motion control) would tide me over until the game is available, and would transform the Wii U from merely being an agreeable new piece of technology into an absolute, undisputed must-have.

Can't disagree. I don't mind missing minor things, but major items like the Light Arrows are arguably too much. I know you weren't asking me, but yep, my first was Link to the Past and my favourite (2D) has always been Link's Awakening.

I feel a bit bad about you missing the Light Arrows, @Hero\-of\-Time! I meant to remind you about the missables but kept forgetting. Sorry. Pretty daft, in my opinion, for a Zelda game to have "important" missables like that, but there you go! Glad you enjoyed Minish Cap. I don't think I could put it above the GameCube version of Twilight Princess, but I agree it's better than Skyward Sword. Minish Cap embraces 2D Zelda very, very well (if not perfectly - as in my posts above), but Skyward Sword does not do the same for 3D Zelda, which (in my opinion) should give us large, connected worlds to explore, not to mention plenty of atmosphere and Day & Night cycles. Anyway, I digress... I for one would love a new 2D Zelda (sprites, grid system) on the eShop!

Yeah, I can't help but agree with @Captain Falcon. Explaining back-stories is a bit of a fool's errand. Zelda was better when they established a really solid overworld/gameplay/atmosphere/graphics-engine and then added a story to that, rather than what they've done recently, ie. treat the story as so important the game seems to be built around it. (Ends before this turns into a Zelda thread!)

Good point. I could never relate to the animosity between Lister and Rimmer. Although I could see the humour and pathos of Lister being stuck with the one person he didn't get on with, I preferred it when there was a spirit of camaraderie. Actually, in that episode from Series V I watched the other day, Lister is the first one to decide they're going in to rescue Rimmer immediately. I thought that was honourable!

Yeah, according to Wikipedia it's 6 miles long, 5 miles tall and 4 miles wide. Obviously it can fit lots of other spaceships in too. Enjoyed "Lemons". Lots of clever lines and belly laughs. The story didn't quite do it for me, but that's just nitpicking really. I loved it when they were ordering Kryten about ("Stain!"), the line about Britons being idiots in 23 AD (getting drunk etc) and "That's easy for you to say, you don't have a Schneisenhauser!" In the first two episodes I thought Chris Barrie had the best lines, but this one was pretty even. Other than that, I also watched "Terrorform" from Series V. Darn, that was good. Very uplifting and heart-warming! Red Dwarf X is good, but I'm missing their Starbug adventures. If IV, V and VI are the high point and VII, VIII and Back to Earth are the low points, I'd probably put X in with I and II (not sure where to put III). They've gone back to basics, which is good, but they've perhaps gone a bit too back to basics. I'm really missing the sort of geeky, "Aliens"-inspired adventures full of model spaceships, monsters and imaginative sci-fi ideas. By the way, there was discussion a few pages back about how it feels like a stage show. I think I've worked out why this is. In Red Dwarf X, the sets always seem to be built so that the actors face the audience, but if you look back at Series V or VI, say, there were lots of camera angles that didn't fit with that ethos. I'm glad they've abandoned the VII and VIII sort of "cinematic" feel, but ideally I'd like them to go back to the "TV adventure" feel of V or VI. Anyway, sounds like I'm complaining but I really do love Red Dwarf and I've had lots of thoughts about it since it's been back!

If the latest episode of Merlin (Series 5, Episode 3 "The Death Song of Uther Pendragon") wasn't the best programme on all week, I don't know what was. Spooky, dramatic, well-lit... it was genius. I have never known any other programme (apart from Red Dwarf, actually) get better and better with each series, so much so that you could say the 5th is the best yet, but this is the case with Merlin. Outstanding, just outstanding.

Well said, Fierce Link. It's actually incredibly childish to "hate" (or unconditionally love) a console or company, and arguably childish to see the world this way (as full of people who "hate"). Honestly, why would people who want to hate Nintendo sign up to a Nintendo forum? I'm pretty sure everyone here wants the Wii U to knock their socks off, but those of us who are genuine and honest with ourselves feel the need to express what it'd take to do that, and whether Nintendo is currently achieving it.

Ah, I knew I'd seen "Dr Left" somewhere other than Minish Cap, but I couldn't remember where (even though I only played Link's Awakening a few weeks ago!)

Wow! Can't say I was really considering NightSky (or even knew it was coming to 3DS), but I'm now intrigued...

Totally agree. Nothing has the chance to sit on the shelves now and gain a good reputation over time. This is particularly true of handheld games where the print-run seems to be much more limited than console titles. Something could sell out (and demand high prices 2nd-hand), yet still be considered a flop because it didn't sell what the publishers expected in the first week.

No, not hyped. I might be if I'd ordered one, but it needs to be a little bit cheaper, personally. Actually, a Premium Pack with New Super Mario Bros U instead of Nintendo Land would be good, as I just won't be able to play the latter properly. That doesn't mean it'll be a bad console! When I first tried the GameCube in Currys (with Luigi's Mansion, no less) I thought "Why do I need this? I feel I should want it, but I'm not convinced". The GameCube went on to become my favourite home console of all time. I was really, really excited about the 3DS because of the stereoscopic 3D and the fact it had a remake of Ocarina of Time on the way... but the Wii U? Sorry, there's nothing to give me that feeling yet. To me, the Wii U is all potential. Whether it lives up to it or not I'm genuinely open-minded about, but the good news is there's no reason why it shouldn't.

Totally agree, but I'm hopeful (naive?) about those four. Yes indeed!

Wow, it actually sounds a bit better than I expected. It's got the 3-plane gameplay from Guardian Heroes, but even more developed. Is it just me or is the 3DS building up an awesome line-up of Japanese games? There's this, Etrian Odyssey IV, Project X Zone, Bravely Default: Flying Fairy...

I didn't think the main game was too bad, personally. The 5 post-game levels are an endurance test, but I still managed them. The post-game boss though... that's the one thing I didn't manage to beat. Etrian Odyssey is a game I would like another crack at, this time using the "Retire" function properly, which apparently gives you 6 extra Skill Points if you Retire at Level 70, but just the once. I'd also try and get the rare boss drops, so I could make better equipment. Yes, I think I could beat it this time... What we need is an Etrian Odyssey I-III Deluxe Pack + a localisation of IV! It's still my most-anticipated 3DS game.

Personally, I think Minish Cap's music is much better than its graphics. When I first played it, I did so through my TV (via the Game Boy Player) and thus the sound was not too good. This time I played it on the 3DS through headphones and it was great. Visually, though, I prefer the Link to the Past style. OK, maybe that was a bad example. I didn't mean to criticise any game's look - I meant the polygons have an effect on how a game plays. A better example is to compare Dragon Quests IV-VI to Dragon Quest IX. All good games and all on the DS, but IX feels like wading through mud compared to the sprite games, which are beautifully fluid. RPGs aren't thought to need fast reactions, but it still makes a difference to how it controls.

Wind Waker Tingle... I was never sceptical about Wind Waker's art style, but I was curious about how they'd got to this stage from the fairly "serious" N64 installments. I had been on a hiatus from gaming and was enjoying WW just fine, but the moment I stepped into Windfall Jail and saw this dodgy fellow I knew I was truly back in the Zelda world. Goddess Statues... Wind Waker delivered a Zelda on a much grander scale than before. After I had spent a reasonable time sailing between three small islands to place pearls in the statues, the way they linked up just blew me away. Never before had I seen such distance covered, and all in a fully explorable area too. Restoring Colour... There's not much I can say about this, but I knew all those Moblin and Darknut statues were there for a reason. One of Zelda's true "genius" moments. Dragon Quest VIII The post-game... Dragon Quest VIII is a game that redefined my idea of how long, good and generally epic an RPG can be. Not that I've ever thought "longer = better", but it did it in a way that constantly developed how involved I was in the game world. When I thought I'd got used to it, there was another challenge to master. Nothing fits this description more than the post-game, in which you face-off against a series of increasingly-tough dragons. The difficulty was such that it always seemed hard-yet-possible. After learning the right techniques and getting the badass (not a word I usually use!) equipment in the screenshot above, I was able to defeat the hardest dragon and get the typical "You don't need me to teach you anything message". Ah, they don't make 'em like those two any more...

I don't know about anyone else, but I think one issue with DLC at the moment is that it comes in a different form to the actual game. For example, I used to buy expansion packs for RollerCoaster Tycoon on the PC, but they all came on disc so it was fine. In the future we might download the entire game and then the DLC, so that will also be fine. At the moment, though, you're likely to buy the game - New Super Mario Bros 2 or Bravely Default: Flying Fairy, for instance - on cartridge, yet the DLC will be downloadable onto your 3DS, not the actual cartridge (correct me if I'm wrong). This way, I see a situation where consumers may not be able to transfer both to future gaming machines. For instance, there will likely be a point where Nintendo handhelds don't have a 3DS slot, and yet in theory you could transfer your DLC to it. On a happier note, I'm glad Bravely Default is doing well in Japan and I hope that makes it a bit more likely we'll get it in Europe.

Minish Cap is a great game. I'm tempted to play it again myself. So true. I've loved playing the 2D Zeldas this year. There's something about them that has been lost; that hasn't been translated to more recent titles. To me, there are two really valid types of Zelda: the 2D games, particularly represented by Link to the Past and Link's Awakening; and the fully-3D games, best represented by Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. Not that I think the 3D games should be just like the 2D ones - more that the 2.5D/3D games like Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks (much as I like them) don't really scratch either itch. I know people find the "sprites vs. hand-drawn vs. polygons" debate boring, but it still has an effect on how a game feels. For instance, some people were surprised that New Super Mario Bros U doesn't run at 1080p. All to do with the fact that, whatever it looks like, it is still a fairly complex polygon game. The other thing that's been lost is the rigid feel of the dungeons. In the true 2D games, every portion of the map or dungeon room was square or 4:3. This allowed an extremely rigid dungeon design, where left, right, up or down could easily lead into another room. Noticing a weak wall, then laying a bomb next to it was particularly satisfying. The dungeons in the DS games just didn't feel the same. In general, the 2D games were absolutely choc-full of secret tunnels, caves and bomb-able walls. So, two technical aspects there that people may find boring, but they do have an effect on the game. Yes, I want more "Wind Wakers" - true 3D, polygon-crunching, dual-analogue adventures full of exploring. But I would also like more "Link's Awakenings" - true 2D, crisp, rigid, sprite-based games... Anything in between, I can't say I'm a huge fan of.

And me. Paper Mario is a known quantity (not that I'm ungrateful for the previews of it) and I'm definitely going to buy it, so if I tried the demo all I'd be doing is seeing some of the story that I'm definitely going to play through anyway. Well, I say that... I was never even tempted to buy Super Paper Mario!

Like some others, I have this problem the other way round! When I go to use the PlayStation controller it takes a little bit of adjustment. @Dcubed made a great point about how B typically equals "negative", and so it's better to have that prominent so you don't accidentally "affirm" anything you don't want to. (But other than that, yes, I miss the GameCube and its controller like crazy.)

Left-hand side, 2nd from bottom is Wonder Boy... Sigh, they really should make another one!

It is. I didn't even know it had DLC. Is it because the cartridge has only one save file (like Dragon Quest IX)? Either way, it's just another thing that makes me think DLC is not a great idea in general.

Yep, Luigi's Mansion is perfectly at home, graphically, although I do wonder if the lack of dual-analogue will be slightly detrimental. Not enough to stop me buying it though!